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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: At what point would you correct the team?

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  • Ilja Preuß
    Hi George, ... Sorry, but I don t see what s natural about it. It s a decision made by a human (or a group of humans) in an authoritative position. ... Well,
    Message 1 of 148 , Aug 3, 2009
      Hi George,

      >> how do you *fire* someone without him feeling it as punishment?
      > One way is to present it as the natural consequences for persisting in
      > behavior identified as unacceptable in the situation.

      Sorry, but I don't see what's "natural" about it. It's a decision made
      by a human (or a group of humans) in an authoritative position.

      >> How do you fire someone for showing specific behavior, without
      >> coworkers fearing that they will be punished by being fired should
      >> they show the same behavior?
      > Maybe it's just that I'm late getting back to this conversation, but I'm
      > not sure I understand your point.  I'm thinking that,
      >  - if it's well understood what behavior is unacceptable, and
      >  - if responses to unacceptable behavior are done transparently
      > then it's not a problem if others notice the consequences for
      > unacceptable behavior.

      Well, to me it seems you are saying that under those conditions,
      punishment is not a problem. Aren't you?

      Curious, Ilja
    • victor oliveira
      Ilja, On the egoists label, I m generally very much against labels. I don t think behavior can be separated from the perspective of the observer. I used it
      Message 148 of 148 , Aug 3, 2009

           On the "egoists" label, I'm generally very much against labels. I don't think behavior can be separated from the perspective of the observer.
           I used it as a reply where egoist was used originally, my mistake not to clarify that and continue with the label. I honestly thought about more or less this point when I wrote the first reply, but I thought it was more important to clear the matter of the use of force. The label clarification would deviate the discussion from the point I was trying to make.
           I agree that the label does not help on solving the "problem". I don't even think it is a problem.
           Thinking of it backwards, a person with more perceived conflicts and difference of opinion tends to be labeled more often.
           If the difference of opinion seems (to the observers) to be often in the thought of self first, team, project and company later, that person ends up being labeled as selfish and egoistic. Even if these are very specific events. 
           In this case, the others, think that convincing is needed. I'll also think on your point here in future events, indeed very well put.

        Best Regards,
        Victor Hugo de Oliveira

        Scrum & Agile Blog

        Concrete Solutions
        new edition: http://www.concretesolutions.com.br/index_eng/

        On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 7:04 AM, Ilja Preuß <iljapreuss@...> wrote:

        Hi Victor,

        I felt uncomfortable with your statement regarding "egoists", and it
        took me quite a while to figure out why exactly.

        First, I feel that putting the label "egoist" on people is probably
        not a good idea if I want to get into a productive relationship with
        them. Perhaps it's just me, but when I use that term, it typically
        means that I pidgeonholed someone. Using that stereotype helps me
        explain someones behavior, but it doesn't help at all really
        *understanding* it - let alone improving the relationship.

        This is amplified by the fact that for me it also is a strongly
        judgemental statement: it's certainly the "egoist" who is wrong. If
        just *he* wouldn't be so egoistical, everything could be fine. That
        also seems to be reflected in your statement that those people need
        more coaching and "convincing". But in fact, an "egoist" is just
        someone who possibly doesn't share all of my values, or perhaps just
        has some strong needs I don't see and/or misinterprete. How much more
        egocentric could I get?

        I hope that in the future, when I perceive someone as egoistical, I
        will remember that it might just be me who needs some coaching. That
        might enable me to get into a constructive conversation about our both
        needs, and how we can evolve our relationship so that everyone

        Thanks for making me think,


        2009/7/25 victor oliveira <victor.oliveira@...>:

        > Sanky,
        >   as I see it, the egoists will run into more situations of conflict
        > because their perspective of value will be distant from the team and
        > the company.
        >   For the same reason, in my experience it is harder to establish
        > legitimate authorities with them.
        >   This is probably why you see managers acting with force towards them.
        >   Having said that, you should be aware that as much as I believe
        > enforcement is unavoidable at times, most of the times it is
        > avoidable.
        >   Enforcement (with or without legitimacy) is a bitter medicine, like
        > doing chemotherapy. You must be aware that the medicine is also
        > killing the patient.
        >   The vast majority of managers are just used to force because of
        > it's efficiency and they are forgetting overall effectiveness and
        > value.
        >   As a reaction, the biggest chance is that the team member will see
        > the manager as having less and less legitimacy and things will only
        > get worse.
        >   The egoists need more work in coaching and convincing, but when
        > they start to see that the common benefit is strongly related to their
        > own, they can become you best team member.
        >   Managers also need to be encouraged to be patient and a partner
        > with all team members to end antagonism.
        >   I had a pertinent situation in a team once. One of the team
        > members, a senior programmer, was used to do a lot of freelance and
        > work on his own before joining my company.
        >   He had a very narrow mind in terms of team values and company
        > values. Conflicts with him were constant. I spent a lot of time
        > talking to him about company values, client values, whole-team values,
        > over a period of months until he started to get that everyone there
        > was on the same side. When he finally got it, he became a white
        > knight, with a totally different perspective on what it is to truly
        > work in a team.
        >   In this particular case, there was only one occasion of enforcement
        > done in a period of over a year. In every other occasion, a lot of
        > patience and talk did the job.
        >   Quoting yoda :-)    Yes, run! Yes, a Jedi's strength flows from the
        > Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark
        > side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a
        > fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate
        > your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.
        > Best Regards,
        > Victor Hugo de Oliveira
        > Scrum & Agile Blog
        > http://csvo.wordpress.com
        > Concrete Solutions
        > new edition: http://www.concretesolutions.com.br/index_eng/
        > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 3:25 AM, R. Sankara
        > Narayanan<sankara.narayanan@...> wrote:
        >> --------------------------------------------------
        >> From: "Ilja Preuß" <iljapreuss@...>
        >> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 5:33 PM
        >>> Hi Victor,
        >>> now I'm confused.
        >>> If there are other alternatives, of which most things are better than
        >>> enforcement, when would enforcement be unavoidable?
        >>> Curious, Ilja
        >> As per my previous experiences, when the person is egoistic/ egocentric,
        >> enforcement is just unavoidable. I have observed that my egoistic peers gets
        >> enforced by my manager in several occasions. In general, egoistic persons
        >> generally accept the decision/ order if they are threatened from
        >> psychological standpoint.
        >> Cheers,
        >> Sanky,
        >> http://www.sodhanai.com
        >> http://sodhanai.spaces.live.com
        > --
        > ------------------------------------

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