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Coordinating Scrum ceremonies when seperated by 10 1/2 hours

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  • Hank Roark
    I have a very tactical question and am looking for any advice from others on what has worked for them in the past. I have a team of 8 people, four in the US on
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 1, 2009
      I have a very tactical question and am looking for any advice from
      others on what has worked for them in the past.

      I have a team of 8 people, four in the US on Central (Daylight)
      Timezone, four in India on India Standard Time. The team members in
      India are 10 1/2 hours ahead of the team members in the US.

      I am looking for suggestions on how to coordinate Sprint Planning
      (currently taking 6 hours for a 3 week sprint), Daily Scrum (as you
      all know, 15 minutes), Sprint Review (time boxed to 1 hour), and
      Retrospective (time boxed to 1 hour). Our sprints are 3 weeks long.

      Ideally all team members would be present for all four ceremonies (but
      maybe that is not feasible...I don't know).

      Does anyone have suggestions / experiences on how they have dealt with
      scheduling the Scrum ceremonies when the team is this far different in
      time? Specifics would be helpful, if you don't mind sharing.

      (Yes, I know, make them co-located and solve my problems...that's an
      organizational impediment that I cannot overcome right now...maybe in
      the future...so I need to do the art of the possible for now.)

      Cheers,
      Hank
    • George Dinwiddie
      ... 6 hours for sprint planning is a long time. Perhaps shorter sprints would allow you to have shorter planning meetings. It s much easier to plan a smaller
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 1, 2009
        Hank Roark wrote:
        > I have a very tactical question and am looking for any advice from
        > others on what has worked for them in the past.
        >
        > I have a team of 8 people, four in the US on Central (Daylight)
        > Timezone, four in India on India Standard Time. The team members in
        > India are 10 1/2 hours ahead of the team members in the US.
        >
        > I am looking for suggestions on how to coordinate Sprint Planning
        > (currently taking 6 hours for a 3 week sprint), Daily Scrum (as you
        > all know, 15 minutes), Sprint Review (time boxed to 1 hour), and
        > Retrospective (time boxed to 1 hour). Our sprints are 3 weeks long.

        6 hours for sprint planning is a long time. Perhaps shorter sprints
        would allow you to have shorter planning meetings. It's much easier to
        plan a smaller amount of work.

        - George

        --
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
        Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
        Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      • jmilunsky
        The best way to do this is to get the India folks, even just the more senior ones to come over to the US for the first 2 sprints. Get them acquainted with the
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 1, 2009
          The best way to do this is to get the India folks, even just the more senior ones to come over to the US for the first 2 sprints. Get them acquainted with the project and the people and get them into the groove. Then when they go back they're already familiar with the process the culture and have a good feel for the project.

          Next it would be best to have the India Team working on their own pieces of functionality so that they can run their own scrums and not have to be too dependent on the US folks. SO try to split the work across really well defined boundaries. Try let them deal with a complete vertical slice of the code or if there are crystal clear interface definitions then it just makes the division of tasks so much easier. Then you can have a very short scrum of scrums at a time that is convenient for both parties.

          Also, it's probably a good idea that a senior developer from the US go to India from time to time to keep the teams synchronized

          Hope this helps
          Jack
          www.agilebuddy.com
          blog.agilebuddy.com
          twitter.com/agilebuddy


          can hold their own scrums

          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hank Roark <Hank.Roark@...> wrote:
          >
          > I have a very tactical question and am looking for any advice from
          > others on what has worked for them in the past.
          >
          > I have a team of 8 people, four in the US on Central (Daylight)
          > Timezone, four in India on India Standard Time. The team members in
          > India are 10 1/2 hours ahead of the team members in the US.
          >
          > I am looking for suggestions on how to coordinate Sprint Planning
          > (currently taking 6 hours for a 3 week sprint), Daily Scrum (as you
          > all know, 15 minutes), Sprint Review (time boxed to 1 hour), and
          > Retrospective (time boxed to 1 hour). Our sprints are 3 weeks long.
          >
          > Ideally all team members would be present for all four ceremonies (but
          > maybe that is not feasible...I don't know).
          >
          > Does anyone have suggestions / experiences on how they have dealt with
          > scheduling the Scrum ceremonies when the team is this far different in
          > time? Specifics would be helpful, if you don't mind sharing.
          >
          > (Yes, I know, make them co-located and solve my problems...that's an
          > organizational impediment that I cannot overcome right now...maybe in
          > the future...so I need to do the art of the possible for now.)
          >
          > Cheers,
          > Hank
          >
        • Michael Vizdos
          Have you asked the team(s)? Thank you, - Mike Vizdos www.michaelvizdos.com www.implementingscrum.com
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 1, 2009
            Have you asked the team(s)?

            Thank you,

            - Mike Vizdos
            www.michaelvizdos.com
            www.implementingscrum.com

            On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Hank Roark<Hank.Roark@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I have a very tactical question and am looking for any advice from
            > others on what has worked for them in the past.
            >
            > I have a team of 8 people, four in the US on Central (Daylight)
            > Timezone, four in India on India Standard Time. The team members in
            > India are 10 1/2 hours ahead of the team members in the US.
            >
            > I am looking for suggestions on how to coordinate Sprint Planning
            > (currently taking 6 hours for a 3 week sprint), Daily Scrum (as you
            > all know, 15 minutes), Sprint Review (time boxed to 1 hour), and
            > Retrospective (time boxed to 1 hour). Our sprints are 3 weeks long.
            >
            > Ideally all team members would be present for all four ceremonies (but
            > maybe that is not feasible...I don't know).
            >
            > Does anyone have suggestions / experiences on how they have dealt with
            > scheduling the Scrum ceremonies when the team is this far different in
            > time? Specifics would be helpful, if you don't mind sharing.
            >
            > (Yes, I know, make them co-located and solve my problems...that's an
            > organizational impediment that I cannot overcome right now...maybe in
            > the future...so I need to do the art of the possible for now.)
            >
            > Cheers,
            > Hank
            >
            >
          • banshee858
            ... I tend to agree with this idea. I have some of my own, but I would like to know what the people who are doing the work think. Carlton
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 1, 2009
              >
              > Have you asked the team(s)?
              >
              I tend to agree with this idea. I have some of my own, but I would like to know what the people who are doing the work think.

              Carlton
            • Adam Sroka
              It is very important that each of the major roles be represented in each location (i.e. dev and PO). Having all of the POs in one country and all of the devs
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 1, 2009
                It is very important that each of the major roles be represented in
                each location (i.e. dev and PO). Having all of the POs in one country
                and all of the devs in another will not work in an Agile manner. At
                least consider hiring someone with the appropriate skill set to act as
                their local proxy.

                You might consider doing some portion of the meetings independently
                and then getting together to go over the results and coordinate. This
                would work particularly well if you do as I suggest above and have at
                least one dev and one PO in each location.

                For example, you could have each location estimate stories
                independently and then have the two teams meet to discuss what they'd
                come up with and resolve any differences. Similarly, you could do
                separate retrospectives and then a shorter combined one (Perhaps you
                could record each session so that interested parties could review what
                was discussed at the other location.)

                On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Hank Roark<Hank.Roark@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > I have a very tactical question and am looking for any advice from
                > others on what has worked for them in the past.
                >
                > I have a team of 8 people, four in the US on Central (Daylight)
                > Timezone, four in India on India Standard Time. The team members in
                > India are 10 1/2 hours ahead of the team members in the US.
                >
                > I am looking for suggestions on how to coordinate Sprint Planning
                > (currently taking 6 hours for a 3 week sprint), Daily Scrum (as you
                > all know, 15 minutes), Sprint Review (time boxed to 1 hour), and
                > Retrospective (time boxed to 1 hour). Our sprints are 3 weeks long.
                >
                > Ideally all team members would be present for all four ceremonies (but
                > maybe that is not feasible...I don't know).
                >
                > Does anyone have suggestions / experiences on how they have dealt with
                > scheduling the Scrum ceremonies when the team is this far different in
                > time? Specifics would be helpful, if you don't mind sharing.
                >
                > (Yes, I know, make them co-located and solve my problems...that's an
                > organizational impediment that I cannot overcome right now...maybe in
                > the future...so I need to do the art of the possible for now.)
                >
                > Cheers,
                > Hank
                >
                >
              • Adam M
                Hi Hank, I have a similar problem but from Australia, we use an outsource company and the time difference is 6 hours (India is 6 hours behind us).. We also
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 2, 2009
                  Hi Hank,

                  I have a similar problem but from Australia, we use an outsource company and the time difference is 6 hours (India is 6 hours behind us). We also have a further challenge of having our operational people (business experts) located in another State of Australia, we have had to become inventive when it comes to separation of teams using agile. 

                  We have at times paid for cabs fare to allow our Indian partners to arrive earlier at work and be able to join in the daily scrum and sprint planning sessions (using phone, Intranet share points and MS communicator to share documents and story boards). I have found this to be the most effective way to keep communication open and allow the ceremonies of scrum to go ahead with all participants.

                  This is no silver bullet, but with a clamp down on speeding it is the best we can do at the moment.

                  Hope this helps

                  Adam
                   

                   


                  From: Hank Roark <Hank.Roark@...>
                  To: scrumdevelopment <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, 2 July, 2009 4:08:46 AM
                  Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Coordinating Scrum ceremonies when seperated by 10 1/2 hours

                  I have a very tactical question and am looking for any advice from
                  others on what has worked for them in the past.

                  I have a team of 8 people, four in the US on Central (Daylight)
                  Timezone, four in India on India Standard Time. The team members in
                  India are 10 1/2 hours ahead of the team members in the US.

                  I am looking for suggestions on how to coordinate Sprint Planning
                  (currently taking 6 hours for a 3 week sprint), Daily Scrum (as you
                  all know, 15 minutes), Sprint Review (time boxed to 1 hour), and
                  Retrospective (time boxed to 1 hour). Our sprints are 3 weeks long.

                  Ideally all team members would be present for all four ceremonies (but
                  maybe that is not feasible...I don't know).

                  Does anyone have suggestions / experiences on how they have dealt with
                  scheduling the Scrum ceremonies when the team is this far different in
                  time? Specifics would be helpful, if you don't mind sharing.

                  (Yes, I know, make them co-located and solve my problems...that' s an
                  organizational impediment that I cannot overcome right now...maybe in
                  the future...so I need to do the art of the possible for now.)

                  Cheers,
                  Hank



                  Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere. Show me how.
                • Jojo Jacob
                  Hi, I need help in 2 things, 1. Can anyone help me to get an excel template to prepare burn down chart? I know it is easily available on net, but not able to
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 2, 2009

                    Hi,

                     

                    I need help in 2 things,

                     

                    1. Can anyone help me to get an excel template to prepare burn down chart? I know it is easily available on net, but not able to find an easy and flexible one.

                     

                    1. Please anyone can help me out in the Velocity calculation for a Sprint? What is the formula you normally apply for the same in terms of days on each stories / points for each stories?

                     

                    Thanks and Regards,

                     

                    Jojo Jacob

                     


                    From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam M
                    Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:35 PM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Coordinating Scrum ceremonies when seperated by 10 1/2 hours

                     




                    Hi Hank,

                    I have a similar problem but from Australia , we use an outsource company and the time difference is 6 hours ( India is 6 hours behind us). We also have a further challenge of having our operational people (business experts) located in another State of Australia, we have had to become inventive when it comes to separation of teams using agile. 

                    We have at times paid for cabs fare to allow our Indian partners to arrive earlier at work and be able to join in the daily scrum and sprint planning sessions (using phone, Intranet share points and MS communicator to share documents and story boards). I have found this to be the most effective way to keep communication open and allow the ceremonies of scrum to go ahead with all participants.

                    This is no silver bullet, but with a clamp down on speeding it is the best we can do at the moment.

                    Hope this helps

                    Adam
                     

                     

                     


                    From: Hank Roark <Hank.Roark@gmail. com>
                    To: scrumdevelopment <scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com>
                    Sent: Thursday, 2 July, 2009 4:08:46 AM
                    Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Coordinating Scrum ceremonies when seperated by 10 1/2 hours

                    I have a very tactical question and am looking for any advice from
                    others on what has worked for them in the past.

                    I have a team of 8 people, four in the US on Central (Daylight)
                    Timezone, four in India on India Standard Time. The team members in
                    India are 10 1/2 hours ahead of the team members in the US .

                    I am looking for suggestions on how to coordinate Sprint Planning
                    (currently taking 6 hours for a 3 week sprint), Daily Scrum (as you
                    all know, 15 minutes), Sprint Review (time boxed to 1 hour), and
                    Retrospective (time boxed to 1 hour). Our sprints are 3 weeks long.

                    Ideally all team members would be present for all four ceremonies (but
                    maybe that is not feasible...I don't know).

                    Does anyone have suggestions / experiences on how they have dealt with
                    scheduling the Scrum ceremonies when the team is this far different in
                    time? Specifics would be helpful, if you don't mind sharing.

                    (Yes, I know, make them co-located and solve my problems...that' s an
                    organizational impediment that I cannot overcome right now...maybe in
                    the future...so I need to do the art of the possible for now.)

                    Cheers,
                    Hank

                     


                    Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere. Show me how.

                  • Hank Roark
                    Yes. No one seems happy right now, but no one seems really upset. I m just out looking for other objective data.
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 2, 2009
                      Yes. No one seems happy right now, but no one seems really upset.
                      I'm just out looking for other objective data.

                      On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 10:03 PM, Michael Vizdos<mvizdos@...> wrote:
                      > Have you asked the team(s)?
                      >
                      > Thank you,
                      >
                      > - Mike Vizdos
                      >  www.michaelvizdos.com
                      >  www.implementingscrum.com
                      >
                      > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Hank Roark<Hank.Roark@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> I have a very tactical question and am looking for any advice from
                      >> others on what has worked for them in the past.
                      >>
                      >> I have a team of 8 people, four in the US on Central (Daylight)
                      >> Timezone, four in India on India Standard Time. The team members in
                      >> India are 10 1/2 hours ahead of the team members in the US.
                      >>
                      >> I am looking for suggestions on how to coordinate Sprint Planning
                      >> (currently taking 6 hours for a 3 week sprint), Daily Scrum (as you
                      >> all know, 15 minutes), Sprint Review (time boxed to 1 hour), and
                      >> Retrospective (time boxed to 1 hour). Our sprints are 3 weeks long.
                      >>
                      >> Ideally all team members would be present for all four ceremonies (but
                      >> maybe that is not feasible...I don't know).
                      >>
                      >> Does anyone have suggestions / experiences on how they have dealt with
                      >> scheduling the Scrum ceremonies when the team is this far different in
                      >> time? Specifics would be helpful, if you don't mind sharing.
                      >>
                      >> (Yes, I know, make them co-located and solve my problems...that's an
                      >> organizational impediment that I cannot overcome right now...maybe in
                      >> the future...so I need to do the art of the possible for now.)
                      >>
                      >> Cheers,
                      >> Hank
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Hank Roark
                      This is a feature team, working on a single feature set. Interesting this suggestion... it seems opposite to how I read the SirsiDynix and Xebia case
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 2, 2009
                        This is a 'feature' team, working on a single feature set.
                        Interesting this suggestion... it seems opposite to how I read the
                        SirsiDynix and Xebia case studies by Sutherland (of course, I don't
                        think the time differences were as big in his cases). I read them to
                        say that the feature team was distributed across at least two
                        locations and they somehow coordinated these ceremonies. Maybe I
                        misunderstood those papers.

                        We have had the folks visit each other and continue to do so (but they
                        have recently transitioned to Scrum, so the visits haven't necessarily
                        been in support of the transition). Good thoughts.

                        On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:14 PM, jmilunsky<jack@...> wrote:
                        > The best way to do this is to get the India folks, even just the more senior ones to come over to the US for the first 2 sprints. Get them acquainted with the project and the people and get them into the groove. Then when they go back they're already familiar with the process the culture and have a good feel for the project.
                        >
                        > Next it would be best to have the India Team working on their own pieces of functionality so that they can run their own scrums and not have to be too dependent on the US folks. SO try to split the work across really well defined boundaries. Try let them deal with a complete vertical slice of the code or if there are crystal clear interface definitions then it just makes the division of tasks so much easier. Then you can have a very short scrum of scrums at a time that is convenient for both parties.
                        >
                        > Also, it's probably a good idea that a senior developer from the US go to India from time to time to keep the teams synchronized
                        >
                        > Hope this helps
                        > Jack
                        > www.agilebuddy.com
                        > blog.agilebuddy.com
                        > twitter.com/agilebuddy
                        >
                        >
                        >  can hold their own scrums
                        >
                        > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hank Roark <Hank.Roark@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >> I have a very tactical question and am looking for any advice from
                        >> others on what has worked for them in the past.
                        >>
                        >> I have a team of 8 people, four in the US on Central (Daylight)
                        >> Timezone, four in India on India Standard Time.  The team members in
                        >> India are 10 1/2 hours ahead of the team members in the US.
                        >>
                        >> I am looking for suggestions on how to coordinate Sprint Planning
                        >> (currently taking 6 hours for a 3 week sprint), Daily Scrum (as you
                        >> all know, 15 minutes), Sprint Review (time boxed to 1 hour), and
                        >> Retrospective (time boxed to 1 hour).  Our sprints are 3 weeks long.
                        >>
                        >> Ideally all team members would be present for all four ceremonies (but
                        >> maybe that is not feasible...I don't know).
                        >>
                        >> Does anyone have suggestions / experiences on how they have dealt with
                        >> scheduling the Scrum ceremonies when the team is this far different in
                        >> time? Specifics would be helpful, if you don't mind sharing.
                        >>
                        >> (Yes, I know, make them co-located and solve my problems...that's an
                        >> organizational impediment that I cannot overcome right now...maybe in
                        >> the future...so I need to do the art of the possible for now.)
                        >>
                        >> Cheers,
                        >> Hank
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Michael Vizdos
                        So is it apathy? Part of the reason asking these basic questions is trying to get at the root of the issue for your team. Other answers here seem helpful, but
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jul 2, 2009
                          So is it apathy?

                          Part of the reason asking these basic questions is trying to get at
                          the root of the issue for your team.

                          Other answers here seem helpful, but in reality the team needs to make
                          a decision. And this does not seem to be happening for some reason.

                          Just my two cents.

                          Thank you.

                          - mike vizdos
                          www.michaelvizdos.com
                          www.implementingscrum.com

                          On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Hank Roark<Hank.Roark@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Yes. No one seems happy right now, but no one seems really upset.
                          > I'm just out looking for other objective data.
                          >
                          > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 10:03 PM, Michael Vizdos<mvizdos@...> wrote:
                          >> Have you asked the team(s)?
                          >>
                          >> Thank you,
                          >>
                          >> - Mike Vizdos
                          >>  www.michaelvizdos.com
                          >>  www.implementingscrum.com
                          >>
                          >> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Hank Roark<Hank.Roark@...> wrote:
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> I have a very tactical question and am looking for any advice from
                          >>> others on what has worked for them in the past.
                          >>>
                          >>> I have a team of 8 people, four in the US on Central (Daylight)
                          >>> Timezone, four in India on India Standard Time. The team members in
                          >>> India are 10 1/2 hours ahead of the team members in the US.
                          >>>
                          >>> I am looking for suggestions on how to coordinate Sprint Planning
                          >>> (currently taking 6 hours for a 3 week sprint), Daily Scrum (as you
                          >>> all know, 15 minutes), Sprint Review (time boxed to 1 hour), and
                          >>> Retrospective (time boxed to 1 hour). Our sprints are 3 weeks long.
                          >>>
                          >>> Ideally all team members would be present for all four ceremonies (but
                          >>> maybe that is not feasible...I don't know).
                          >>>
                          >>> Does anyone have suggestions / experiences on how they have dealt with
                          >>> scheduling the Scrum ceremonies when the team is this far different in
                          >>> time? Specifics would be helpful, if you don't mind sharing.
                          >>>
                          >>> (Yes, I know, make them co-located and solve my problems...that's an
                          >>> organizational impediment that I cannot overcome right now...maybe in
                          >>> the future...so I need to do the art of the possible for now.)
                          >>>
                          >>> Cheers,
                          >>> Hank
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> ------------------------------------
                          >>
                          >> To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                          >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                          >> scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                        • Mark Levison
                          Sorry I was on vacation when this thread happened. I ve encountered this on a couple of occasions the solution we used: each team holds separate events
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jul 21, 2009
                            Sorry I was on vacation when this thread happened. I've encountered this on a couple of occasions the solution we used: each team holds separate events (planning, review/retrospectives, daily scrum). One representative from the other location joins the team meetings via teleconference and webcam, they report back to their local team mates what happened in that meeting. The same happens in the other direction. Its far from perfect but in the end you have two partially independant teams that at least are working with their distant counterparts.

                            I strongly prefer to have all team members at the all the events but that's not possible with this kind of a time difference.

                            Cheers
                            Mark
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