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RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Agile Software Development Revolution

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  • Ken Schwaber
    MIke, Linda Rising is the bard and songstress of agile. I hope she takes these from village to village so people understand better. Ken ... From: Mike Beedle
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 9, 2002
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      MIke,
      Linda Rising is the bard and songstress of agile. I hope she takes these
      from village to village so people understand better.
      Ken

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:50 AM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Agile Software Development
      Revolution



      Mike:

      Well said:

      the intellectual baggage of _defined_ processes
      carried over from previous lives, projects, related
      experience, and education causes for most
      metaphor-block and dysfunctional translation.
      (What a challenge we have ahead of us!!!)

      That's why it is so important to have good mentors,
      experienced Scrum masters, and experienced developers,
      that understand, at least in a tacit way that there
      is a _fundamental_ difference of Agile vs. Traditional
      (defined) software development.

      Also, just like Ken said, I'll have to add these ones
      to the next Gantt chart I see:

      Task 3: Have teams self-organize, 3 days
      Task 4: Allow requirements to emerge, 5 days

      :-) :-) ;-)

      And I'll eve add a few more:

      Task 5: Turn the Management pyramid upside down
      Task 6: Adopt Agile Values

      More relevant to Scrum, and to continue the parody above,
      I often see trained Team Leaders and Managers
      walking into the Scrum meeting assigning tasks and
      expecting direct reports like (to continue the parody):

      "Your _assigned_ task yesterday was to adopt the
      Agile Values, were you able to do that?

      No?!!

      _You are having issues again_. _Report_
      to me your any progress you are able to make
      by tomorrow."

      They think that management _asigns_ tasks, that it
      is developers who have issues to resolve, and that
      developers should _report_ back to them in the morning.

      What we mean in Scrum is:

      Let me hear how things went and see how we, the
      team, can help you

      Let me hear any issues you have that go beyond
      your control so I can help you

      and

      Let me hear what new tasks _you are choosing_ to
      work on next and see how we, the team, can help you

      instead of:

      I assign tasks to you every day

      you must tell me the issues you may have and
      solve them

      and

      you report to me every day

      (Definitely NOT the spirit of Scrum)

      Attitude for the most part is what makes Scrum different than
      micromanagement and Master/Slave direct management and
      reporting,

      - Mike


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      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
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    • mpoppendieck
      I have a couple of observations. Observation 1: Every movement I know of – Just-in-Time, Quality, Lean Manufacturing, Theory of Constraints, you name it –
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 9, 2002
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        I have a couple of observations.

        Observation 1:

        Every movement I know of – Just-in-Time, Quality, Lean
        Manufacturing, Theory of Constraints, you name it – has been
        misunderstood and misapplied by people who size on a piece of the
        message. People looking for a formula or sliver bullet always
        seem to miss the fundamentals. At the core, every one of these
        movements focuses on team empowerment, providing customer value, and
        moving from a parochial to a holistic view of the system. In every
        case, these `movements' emphasize that the manager must act
        as a coach, provide training, and help the team understand and
        achieve overall business value.

        If these very worthy paradigm shifts are mis-applied more often than
        used correctly, why would we think that agile development would be
        immune from the same fate?

        Observation 2:

        I worry about stereotyping managers as people who assign tasks and
        check that they are done. I know many managers who understand their
        role to be coaching, training, supporting, and providing a valuable
        business mission to an empowered team. Okay, so most of them are in
        operations or product development, but that just goes to show the
        JIT/TQM/Lean/TOC movements have had some positive impact.

        We can't influence people who feel we do not respect them.

        Mary Poppendieck
        www.LeanProgramming.com
      • Mike Cohn
        You re right, Mike! I ve heard that quote before and it is totally appropriate in this case as well. It already seems like agile has become the decade s new
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 9, 2002
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          You’re right, Mike!

          I’ve heard that quote before and it is totally appropriate in this case as well.

          It already seems like “agile” has become the decade’s new buzzword.

           

          I guess the worthwhile innovations have weathered their buzzword periods—certainly OO surpassed buzzword status. Hopefully agile does the same.

           

          Even someone who dumps RUP for “lighter RUP” or some of the less-agile of the agile methods (e.g., FDD) is taking a step in the right direction. If people convert to those types of methodologies for a few years they may then be more willing to hear the true gospel of agile and go all the way—that would certainly fit with your comment that we may be facing a 20-30 year absorption.

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:01 AM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Agile Software Development Revolution

           


          Ken wrote:
          > Barry Boehm and a lot of other respected people like
          > him are the worst thing that could happen to agile.
          > They don't get it; they think agile is a task3, task4
          > thing that is really "lightweight", but not something
          > radically new. They are part of the problem, not
          > part of the solution. And it seems that the more we
          > work with them, the more we lose our focus and
          > they redefine agile into "just a small change."

          Ken:

          I didn't have the courage to put it quite on these words,
          but yes, I wholeheartedly agree.  If people hear believable
          misconceptions, half truths, or just plain ole illed advice
          from figure heads like:

                * XP can be an instance or RUP

                * Agile processes are _defined_ ETVX processes and
                are CMM compatible

                * Agile processes are just lightweight processes

                * We've done _all_ of this for the last 30 years

                etc.

          Agile will be reduced to whatever else they want and it
          to be, and the agile concept will be so muddled and garbled
          that it will be hard to tell, specially for new comers,
          what Software Agility really is or is not.

          An old quote comes to mind, in 1982, Tim Rentsch said:

          " ...object oriented programming will be in the 1980's
          what structured programming was in the 1970's. Everyone
          will be in favor of it. Every manufacturer will promote
          his products as supporting it. Every manager will pay
          lip service to it. Every programmer will practice it
          (differently). And no one will know just what it is."

          [Rentsch82]
          Nguyen, Van and Hailpern, Brent "A Generalized Object Model",
          ACM SIGPLAN NOTICES, v17, n9 Ed: G. Richard Wexelblat,
          September 1982

          So let me translate it to the agile software development:

          " ...Agile Software Development will be in the 2000's
          what Defined-Process Software Development was in the 1980's.
          Everyone will be in favor of it. Every manufacturer will promote
          his products as supporting it. Every manager will pay
          lip service to it. Every programmer will practice it
          (differently). And no one will know just what it is."

          The scary part is that Rentsch's observations were valid
          also in the 1990's, so if history repeats itself, we are
          talking about an absorption rate of 20-30 years or so,

          - Mike
           

        • Mike Cohn
          Mike- The differences you describe here are perfect. Somewhat to Mary s point about needing to trust managers, though, sometimes this isn t the manager s or
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 9, 2002
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            Mike—

            The differences you describe here are perfect.

             

            Somewhat to Mary’s point about needing to trust managers, though, sometimes this isn’t the manager’s or ScrumMaster’s fault. I am working with a team right now that is slowly becoming accustomed to Scrum but I think they’re so used to having tasks assigned to them they are uncomfortable when I don’t tell them what task is next. I probably go a little further than you and Ken describe in your book in helping the team figure out what moves into the Sprint Backlog but I don’t tell them at all what order in which to work on things. It’s taken a few months with this team to convince them that I am not “checking up” on them in daily scrums and that the main purpose of the meeting is to make commitments to each other and for me to find out about impediments. They are coming around but they are nervous about the additional control and responsibility that ends up on their shoulders.

             

            This team also had a hard time of buying into the full “the product must be shippable”. One way I’ve got them around that (almost completely now) is to introduce the idea of a “stabilization sprint”. This was just a sprint with no new coding but just a catching up on testing application. Not a good idea in some situations but in this one it made sense (this was a team of 4 people who were left after 80 of their coworkers were fired and they are continuing on with work started by the 84 person team—that’s the type of project that needs extra “stabilization”).

             

            --Mike

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
            Sent:
            Tuesday, July 09, 2002 2:50 AM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Agile Software Development Revolution

             


             
            What we mean in Scrum is:

                  Let me hear how things went and see how we, the
                  team, can help you

                  Let me hear any issues you have that go beyond
                  your control so I can help you

                  and

                  Let me hear what new tasks _you are choosing_ to
                  work on next and see how we, the team, can help you
                 
            instead of:

                  I assign tasks to you every day

                  you must tell me the issues you may have and
                  solve them

                  and

                  you report to me every day

                  (Definitely NOT the spirit of Scrum)

            Attitude for the most part is what makes Scrum different than
            micromanagement and Master/Slave direct management and
            reporting,

             

          • Linda Rising
            Now that I m back from Ireland, I can add a little bodhran accompaniment ... http://www.ifccsa.org/bodhran.html
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 15, 2002
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              Now that I'm back from Ireland, I can add a little bodhran accompaniment
              :-)!

              http://www.ifccsa.org/bodhran.html



              Ken Schwaber wrote:

              >MIke,
              >Linda Rising is the bard and songstress of agile. I hope she takes these
              >from village to village so people understand better.
              >Ken
              >
              >-----Original Message-----
              >From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
              >Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:50 AM
              >To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Agile Software Development
              >Revolution
              >
              >
              >
              >Mike:
              >
              >Well said:
              >
              > the intellectual baggage of _defined_ processes
              > carried over from previous lives, projects, related
              > experience, and education causes for most
              > metaphor-block and dysfunctional translation.
              > (What a challenge we have ahead of us!!!)
              >
              >That's why it is so important to have good mentors,
              >experienced Scrum masters, and experienced developers,
              >that understand, at least in a tacit way that there
              >is a _fundamental_ difference of Agile vs. Traditional
              >(defined) software development.
              >
              >Also, just like Ken said, I'll have to add these ones
              >to the next Gantt chart I see:
              >
              > Task 3: Have teams self-organize, 3 days
              > Task 4: Allow requirements to emerge, 5 days
              >
              >:-) :-) ;-)
              >
              >And I'll eve add a few more:
              >
              > Task 5: Turn the Management pyramid upside down
              > Task 6: Adopt Agile Values
              >
              >More relevant to Scrum, and to continue the parody above,
              >I often see trained Team Leaders and Managers
              >walking into the Scrum meeting assigning tasks and
              >expecting direct reports like (to continue the parody):
              >
              > "Your _assigned_ task yesterday was to adopt the
              > Agile Values, were you able to do that?
              >
              > No?!!
              >
              > _You are having issues again_. _Report_
              > to me your any progress you are able to make
              > by tomorrow."
              >
              >They think that management _asigns_ tasks, that it
              >is developers who have issues to resolve, and that
              >developers should _report_ back to them in the morning.
              >
              >What we mean in Scrum is:
              >
              > Let me hear how things went and see how we, the
              > team, can help you
              >
              > Let me hear any issues you have that go beyond
              > your control so I can help you
              >
              > and
              >
              > Let me hear what new tasks _you are choosing_ to
              > work on next and see how we, the team, can help you
              >
              >instead of:
              >
              > I assign tasks to you every day
              >
              > you must tell me the issues you may have and
              > solve them
              >
              > and
              >
              > you report to me every day
              >
              > (Definitely NOT the spirit of Scrum)
              >
              >Attitude for the most part is what makes Scrum different than
              >micromanagement and Master/Slave direct management and
              >reporting,
              >
              >- Mike
              >
              >
              >To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
              >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              >scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
              >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
            • Peter McGowan
              Did you bring one back with you? If we ever meet up, we can play a reel or a jig and drink a pint together! Keep the wrist lose, Peter ... From: Linda
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 15, 2002
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                Did you bring one back with you? If we ever meet up, we can play a reel or
                a jig and drink a pint together!

                Keep the wrist lose,
                Peter


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Linda Rising" <risingl@...>
                To: <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 4:48 PM
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Agile Software Development Revolution


                > Now that I'm back from Ireland, I can add a little bodhran accompaniment
                > :-)!
                >
                > http://www.ifccsa.org/bodhran.html
                >
                >
                >
                > Ken Schwaber wrote:
                >
                > >MIke,
                > >Linda Rising is the bard and songstress of agile. I hope she takes these
                > >from village to village so people understand better.
                > >Ken
                > >
                > >-----Original Message-----
                > >From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
                > >Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:50 AM
                > >To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                > >Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Agile Software Development
                > >Revolution
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >Mike:
                > >
                > >Well said:
                > >
                > > the intellectual baggage of _defined_ processes
                > > carried over from previous lives, projects, related
                > > experience, and education causes for most
                > > metaphor-block and dysfunctional translation.
                > > (What a challenge we have ahead of us!!!)
                > >
                > >That's why it is so important to have good mentors,
                > >experienced Scrum masters, and experienced developers,
                > >that understand, at least in a tacit way that there
                > >is a _fundamental_ difference of Agile vs. Traditional
                > >(defined) software development.
                > >
                > >Also, just like Ken said, I'll have to add these ones
                > >to the next Gantt chart I see:
                > >
                > > Task 3: Have teams self-organize, 3 days
                > > Task 4: Allow requirements to emerge, 5 days
                > >
                > >:-) :-) ;-)
                > >
                > >And I'll eve add a few more:
                > >
                > > Task 5: Turn the Management pyramid upside down
                > > Task 6: Adopt Agile Values
                > >
                > >More relevant to Scrum, and to continue the parody above,
                > >I often see trained Team Leaders and Managers
                > >walking into the Scrum meeting assigning tasks and
                > >expecting direct reports like (to continue the parody):
                > >
                > > "Your _assigned_ task yesterday was to adopt the
                > > Agile Values, were you able to do that?
                > >
                > > No?!!
                > >
                > > _You are having issues again_. _Report_
                > > to me your any progress you are able to make
                > > by tomorrow."
                > >
                > >They think that management _asigns_ tasks, that it
                > >is developers who have issues to resolve, and that
                > >developers should _report_ back to them in the morning.
                > >
                > >What we mean in Scrum is:
                > >
                > > Let me hear how things went and see how we, the
                > > team, can help you
                > >
                > > Let me hear any issues you have that go beyond
                > > your control so I can help you
                > >
                > > and
                > >
                > > Let me hear what new tasks _you are choosing_ to
                > > work on next and see how we, the team, can help you
                > >
                > >instead of:
                > >
                > > I assign tasks to you every day
                > >
                > > you must tell me the issues you may have and
                > > solve them
                > >
                > > and
                > >
                > > you report to me every day
                > >
                > > (Definitely NOT the spirit of Scrum)
                > >
                > >Attitude for the most part is what makes Scrum different than
                > >micromanagement and Master/Slave direct management and
                > >reporting,
                > >
                > >- Mike
                > >
                > >
                > >To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                > >scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                > >
                > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                > >
                > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Linda Rising
                I had one before I went -- and a tin whistle -- but I got to see lots of players at the Willy Clancy festival -- now I have to find some local set dancers :-)!
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 15, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  I had one before I went -- and a tin whistle -- but I got to see lots of players at the Willy
                  Clancy festival -- now I have to find some local set dancers :-)!




                  Peter McGowan wrote:
                  Did you bring one back with you?  If we ever meet up, we can play a reel or
                  a jig and drink a pint together!

                  Keep the wrist lose,
                  Peter


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Linda Rising" <risingl@...>
                  To: <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 4:48 PM
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Agile Software Development Revolution


                  Now that I'm back from Ireland, I can add a little bodhran accompaniment
                  :-)!

                  http://www.ifccsa.org/bodhran.html



                  Ken Schwaber wrote:

                  MIke,
                  Linda Rising is the bard and songstress of agile. I hope she takes these
                  >from village to village so people understand better.
                  Ken

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:50 AM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Agile Software Development
                  Revolution



                  Mike:

                  Well said:

                  the intellectual baggage of _defined_ processes
                  carried over from previous lives, projects, related
                  experience, and education causes for most
                  metaphor-block and dysfunctional translation.
                  (What a challenge we have ahead of us!!!)

                  That's why it is so important to have good mentors,
                  experienced Scrum masters, and experienced developers,
                  that understand, at least in a tacit way that there
                  is a _fundamental_ difference of Agile vs. Traditional
                  (defined) software development.

                  Also, just like Ken said, I'll have to add these ones
                  to the next Gantt chart I see:

                  Task 3: Have teams self-organize, 3 days
                  Task 4: Allow requirements to emerge, 5 days

                  :-) :-) ;-)

                  And I'll eve add a few more:

                  Task 5: Turn the Management pyramid upside down
                  Task 6: Adopt Agile Values

                  More relevant to Scrum, and to continue the parody above,
                  I often see trained Team Leaders and Managers
                  walking into the Scrum meeting assigning tasks and
                  expecting direct reports like (to continue the parody):

                  "Your _assigned_ task yesterday was to adopt the
                  Agile Values, were you able to do that?

                  No?!!

                  _You are having issues again_. _Report_
                  to me your any progress you are able to make
                  by tomorrow."

                  They think that management _asigns_ tasks, that it
                  is developers who have issues to resolve, and that
                  developers should _report_ back to them in the morning.

                  What we mean in Scrum is:

                  Let me hear how things went and see how we, the
                  team, can help you

                  Let me hear any issues you have that go beyond
                  your control so I can help you

                  and

                  Let me hear what new tasks _you are choosing_ to
                  work on next and see how we, the team, can help you

                  instead of:

                  I assign tasks to you every day

                  you must tell me the issues you may have and
                  solve them

                  and

                  you report to me every day

                  (Definitely NOT the spirit of Scrum)

                  Attitude for the most part is what makes Scrum different than
                  micromanagement and Master/Slave direct management and
                  reporting,

                  - Mike


                  To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                  To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






                  To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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                • Ken Schwaber
                  Neat!! ... From: Linda Rising [mailto:risingl@acm.org] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 4:48 PM To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment]
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jul 17, 2002
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                    Neat!!

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Linda Rising [mailto:risingl@...]
                    Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 4:48 PM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Agile Software Development
                    Revolution


                    Now that I'm back from Ireland, I can add a little bodhran accompaniment
                    :-)!

                    http://www.ifccsa.org/bodhran.html



                    Ken Schwaber wrote:

                    >MIke,
                    >Linda Rising is the bard and songstress of agile. I hope she takes these
                    >from village to village so people understand better.
                    >Ken
                    >
                    >-----Original Message-----
                    >From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
                    >Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:50 AM
                    >To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Agile Software Development
                    >Revolution
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Mike:
                    >
                    >Well said:
                    >
                    > the intellectual baggage of _defined_ processes
                    > carried over from previous lives, projects, related
                    > experience, and education causes for most
                    > metaphor-block and dysfunctional translation.
                    > (What a challenge we have ahead of us!!!)
                    >
                    >That's why it is so important to have good mentors,
                    >experienced Scrum masters, and experienced developers,
                    >that understand, at least in a tacit way that there
                    >is a _fundamental_ difference of Agile vs. Traditional
                    >(defined) software development.
                    >
                    >Also, just like Ken said, I'll have to add these ones
                    >to the next Gantt chart I see:
                    >
                    > Task 3: Have teams self-organize, 3 days
                    > Task 4: Allow requirements to emerge, 5 days
                    >
                    >:-) :-) ;-)
                    >
                    >And I'll eve add a few more:
                    >
                    > Task 5: Turn the Management pyramid upside down
                    > Task 6: Adopt Agile Values
                    >
                    >More relevant to Scrum, and to continue the parody above,
                    >I often see trained Team Leaders and Managers
                    >walking into the Scrum meeting assigning tasks and
                    >expecting direct reports like (to continue the parody):
                    >
                    > "Your _assigned_ task yesterday was to adopt the
                    > Agile Values, were you able to do that?
                    >
                    > No?!!
                    >
                    > _You are having issues again_. _Report_
                    > to me your any progress you are able to make
                    > by tomorrow."
                    >
                    >They think that management _asigns_ tasks, that it
                    >is developers who have issues to resolve, and that
                    >developers should _report_ back to them in the morning.
                    >
                    >What we mean in Scrum is:
                    >
                    > Let me hear how things went and see how we, the
                    > team, can help you
                    >
                    > Let me hear any issues you have that go beyond
                    > your control so I can help you
                    >
                    > and
                    >
                    > Let me hear what new tasks _you are choosing_ to
                    > work on next and see how we, the team, can help you
                    >
                    >instead of:
                    >
                    > I assign tasks to you every day
                    >
                    > you must tell me the issues you may have and
                    > solve them
                    >
                    > and
                    >
                    > you report to me every day
                    >
                    > (Definitely NOT the spirit of Scrum)
                    >
                    >Attitude for the most part is what makes Scrum different than
                    >micromanagement and Master/Slave direct management and
                    >reporting,
                    >
                    >- Mike
                    >
                    >
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                    >
                    >
                    >To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
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                    >




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