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Re: Follow up to the recent trademark incident

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  • howardsublett
    llja, Perhaps you missed this post above in the thread from yesterday: Re: Follow up to the recent trademark incident Good chat with Cory this morning and we
    Message 1 of 13 , May 2, 2009
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      llja,

      Perhaps you missed this post above in the thread from yesterday:

      Re: Follow up to the recent trademark incident

      Good chat with Cory this morning and we have received a number of great
      suggestions on how best to service and support Scrum User Groups. We recognize
      that for some Scrum User Groups this agreement will not work. I think within a
      week we will come up with a better way of getting this done and a framework that
      will better address all our needs. Thank you Scrum community for your input and
      help.

      Jim Cundiff


      To add to that post, Jim and I have met extensively over the past few days and we are meeting physically with the rest of the team on Monday to talk about how to better help our user groups and accomplish our needs. I also understand that Jim is flying out to physically meet with Cory to try to really hear the concerns he had expressed and reach out to help us serve our official groups better in this matter. Both Jim and I have spent countless hours in direct correspondence or on the phone with people just like you that have had some concerns.

      We are working on this and we are learning from this.

      It took time for the last agreement to be formulated and written, so please allow us the time to process what is to come.



      Howard Sublett
      Membership Liaison
      Scrum Alliance, Inc.



      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Ilja Preuß <iljapreuss@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Alan,
      >
      > > Now, from this friction, we (the community) and they (Scrum Alliance)
      > > have learned better how to work with one another.  Our work together
      > > can be stronger for the experience, if we make it so.
      >
      > I don't think that happens just by itself. And frankly, I don't see
      > any indication that someone at the SA is willing to take
      > responsibility for what happened, or that someone even thinks
      > something would better have been done differently, or should be done
      > differently in the future.
      >
      > Perhaps it is happening, but if it is, it seems to be happening behind
      > closed doors. Which doesn't help me gain confidence. In fact, it would
      > kind of show me that what seems to be the most important lesson to me,
      > hasn't been learned.
      >
      > But that's just me.
      >
      > Cheers, Ilja
      >
    • Cory Foy
      Hi Ilja, ... Actually, if you look at my last post to the group, I said that Jim explicitly said to me on the phone that they had made a mistake, and that they
      Message 2 of 13 , May 2, 2009
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        Hi Ilja,

        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Ilja Preuß <iljapreuss@...> wrote:
        > I don't think that happens just by itself. And frankly, I don't see
        > any indication that someone at the SA is willing to take
        > responsibility for what happened, or that someone even thinks
        > something would better have been done differently, or should be done
        > differently in the future.
        >
        > Perhaps it is happening, but if it is, it seems to be happening behind
        > closed doors. Which doesn't help me gain confidence. In fact, it would
        > kind of show me that what seems to be the most important lesson to me,
        > hasn't been learned.

        Actually, if you look at my last post to the group, I said that Jim explicitly said to me on the phone that they had made a mistake, and that they were being an impediment instead of a help, and that they wanted to change that.

        I also said that Jim and I are meeting on Tuesday here in Tampa to map out a way to change how this works. And further, that I'd make sure that any thing we came up with I'd bring to the group first.

        I didn't want to get too much into Jim and my discussion until we had talked more face-to-face, but here's an interesting tidbit. There are places in the world where companies, yes, companies, are naming themselves "Scrum User Group" as part of their title, and then offering "coaching" and "development" services through that company - usually by people that have not been through the Scrum classes, and often recommending things other than Scrum ("You don't need daily stand-ups! Prince2 is everything you need!").

        So the broader question is how to we keep that from happening and diluting not only Scrum, but agile as well? And do it in a way which allows for the teeth to block things like that, but without getting in the way of the communities that are working hard to spread agile and Scrum to their communities?

        That's what I hope to talk to him about, and what I want to bring out. I admit that I was quite skeptical, but after talking with Jim and others, I think that we can find a way to make it work.

        Hope that helps,

        Cory
      • Andrew Ramsay
        It would have been wise of the SA to cast their intent in terms other than heavy-handed, dictatorial, and threatening. /r A. Ramsay Ashburn VA ... From: Cory
        Message 3 of 13 , May 2, 2009
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          It would have been wise of the SA to cast their intent in terms other than heavy-handed, dictatorial, and threatening.
           
          /r
           
          A. Ramsay
          Ashburn VA
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Cory Foy
          Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 12:15 PM
          Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [scrumdevelopment] Re: Follow up to the recent trademark incident

          Hi Ilja,

          --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Ilja Preuß <iljapreuss@ ...> wrote:
          > I don't think that happens just by itself. And frankly, I don't see
          > any indication that someone at the SA is willing to take
          > responsibility for what happened, or that someone even thinks
          > something would better have been done differently, or should be done
          > differently in the future.
          >
          > Perhaps it is happening, but if it is, it seems to be happening behind
          > closed doors. Which doesn't help me gain confidence. In fact, it would
          > kind of show me that what seems to be the most important lesson to me,
          > hasn't been learned.

          Actually, if you look at my last post to the group, I said that Jim explicitly said to me on the phone that they had made a mistake, and that they were being an impediment instead of a help, and that they wanted to change that.

          I also said that Jim and I are meeting on Tuesday here in Tampa to map out a way to change how this works. And further, that I'd make sure that any thing we came up with I'd bring to the group first.

          I didn't want to get too much into Jim and my discussion until we had talked more face-to-face, but here's an interesting tidbit. There are places in the world where companies, yes, companies, are naming themselves "Scrum User Group" as part of their title, and then offering "coaching" and "development" services through that company - usually by people that have not been through the Scrum classes, and often recommending things other than Scrum ("You don't need daily stand-ups! Prince2 is everything you need!").

          So the broader question is how to we keep that from happening and diluting not only Scrum, but agile as well? And do it in a way which allows for the teeth to block things like that, but without getting in the way of the communities that are working hard to spread agile and Scrum to their communities?

          That's what I hope to talk to him about, and what I want to bring out. I admit that I was quite skeptical, but after talking with Jim and others, I think that we can find a way to make it work.

          Hope that helps,

          Cory

        • Ron Jeffries
          Hello, Andrew. On Saturday, May 2, 2009, at 12:40:07 PM, you ... Did you read the letter they sent? I did not see anything in it that was heavy-handed,
          Message 4 of 13 , May 2, 2009
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            Hello, Andrew. On Saturday, May 2, 2009, at 12:40:07 PM, you
            wrote:

            > It would have been wise of the SA to cast their intent in terms
            > other than heavy-handed, dictatorial, and threatening.

            Did you read the letter they sent? I did not see anything in it that
            was heavy-handed, dictatorial, or threatening. I'd be very mildly
            interesting in what you saw that was.

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            www.xprogramming.com/blog
            I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
            Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
            Yin and Yang I figure.
            -- Tom Jeffries
          • Paul Oldfield
            (responding to Howard) ... Sounds promising. It would be good if a genuine Scrum user group could say what they were, even if they don t want to affiliate with
            Message 5 of 13 , May 3, 2009
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              (responding to Howard)

              > ... We recognize that for some Scrum User Groups this
              > agreement will not work. I think within a week we will come up
              > with a better way of getting this done and a framework that
              > will better address all our needs...

              Sounds promising.

              It would be good if a genuine Scrum user group could say what
              they were, even if they don't want to affiliate with Scrum
              Alliance or use the Logo, or pay money for use of the term
              "Scrum User Group". Of course, where I live that's not a
              problem; being able to give a correct description takes
              precedence over any registration of marks, in law. You'd
              be able to register and control "Scrum UsrGroup" for
              example, but not "Scrum User Group". Any genuine Scrum User
              Group would have a very good case in law to be able to use that
              description of themselves, because that's what they are.
              You might register the mark, but you'd have less ability
              to control use of the words from which the mark is made up.

              If you could prove the people describing thamselves as a
              Scrum User Group aren't, then they'd be in a less safe position.

              Paul Oldfield
              Capgemini
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