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Re: Follow up to the recent trademark incident

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  • howardsublett
    Good chat with Cory this morning and we have received a number of great suggestions on how best to service and support Scrum User Groups. We recognize that for
    Message 1 of 13 , May 1, 2009
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      Good chat with Cory this morning and we have received a number of great suggestions on how best to service and support Scrum User Groups. We recognize that for some Scrum User Groups this agreement will not work. I think within a week we will come up with a better way of getting this done and a framework that will better address all our needs. Thank you Scrum community for your input and help.

      Jim Cundiff


      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Cory Foy" <usergroup@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi All,
      >
      > This morning, a mutual friend connected Jim and I directly via email. We've already exchanged several emails, and he and I are going to be talking via phone tomorrow to discuss how to hammer out a way to meet what the Scrum Alliance sees as a concern (the misuse of the "Scrum" name) balanced with the need to allow user groups and community leaders to not have to worry about signing on a dotted line.
      >
      > I admit that I am quite happy to see the response from the SA so far, and I look forward to working with Jim. I'll be happy to post more back here once I've had the chance to talk to him.
      >
      > --
      > Cory Foy
      > http://www.cornetdesign.com
      > http://www.agileflorida.com
      >
    • Cory Foy
      ... I wanted to add to Jim s comments. I was really surprised to learn some of the ways that Scrum User Group is quite badly being misused globally, in ways
      Message 2 of 13 , May 1, 2009
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        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "howardsublett" <hsublett@...> wrote:
        >
        > Good chat with Cory this morning and we have received a number of
        > great suggestions on how best to service and support Scrum User
        > Groups. We recognize that for some Scrum User Groups this agreement
        > will not work. I think within a week we will come up with a better
        > way of getting this done and a framework that will better address
        > all our needs. Thank you Scrum community for your input and help.

        I wanted to add to Jim's comments. I was really surprised to learn some of the ways that "Scrum User Group" is quite badly being misused globally, in ways I would have never imagined it being.

        Jim and I talked for over an hour about what happened, and how we can go about solving it. To that end, Jim and I are meeting next week here in Tampa to flesh out an expanded user group program which removes the need for any type of licensing agreement, and in general I think will be more in-line with how many other organizations work with their user groups.

        Jim told me on the phone that it's obvious now that this has become an impediment to creating and organizing user groups, and that was not their intention. I'm hoping that by the end of next week, we'll be able to develop guidance which will make things much clearer and easier.

        I'll work to ensure that before anything is finalized that we draft it here and make sure it fits the needs of those of us developing, running and organizing user groups, gatherings, conferences, etc.

        I admit I was initially skeptical whether we could make this work, but I feel much more confident that this was a mistake across the board that we can all learn from, and work to figure out how to keep from happening.

        --
        Cory Foy
        http://www.cornetdesign.com
        http://www.agileflorida.com
      • Alan Dayley
        ... Inspect. Adapt. Very good, gentlemen! I m anxious to see what comes out of your efforts. Thank you both for working the issues. Alan
        Message 3 of 13 , May 1, 2009
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          On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 8:03 AM, Cory Foy <usergroup@...> wrote:
          >
          > I wanted to add to Jim's comments. I was really surprised to learn some of
          > the ways that "Scrum User Group" is quite badly being misused globally, in
          > ways I would have never imagined it being.
          >
          > Jim and I talked for over an hour about what happened, and how we can go
          > about solving it. To that end, Jim and I are meeting next week here in Tampa
          > to flesh out an expanded user group program which removes the need for any
          > type of licensing agreement, and in general I think will be more in-line
          > with how many other organizations work with their user groups.
          >
          > Jim told me on the phone that it's obvious now that this has become an
          > impediment to creating and organizing user groups, and that was not their
          > intention. I'm hoping that by the end of next week, we'll be able to develop
          > guidance which will make things much clearer and easier.
          >
          > I'll work to ensure that before anything is finalized that we draft it here
          > and make sure it fits the needs of those of us developing, running and
          > organizing user groups, gatherings, conferences, etc.
          >
          > I admit I was initially skeptical whether we could make this work, but I
          > feel much more confident that this was a mistake across the board that we
          > can all learn from, and work to figure out how to keep from happening.

          Inspect. Adapt. Very good, gentlemen! I'm anxious to see what comes
          out of your efforts. Thank you both for working the issues.

          Alan
        • Amanda Abelove
          Hey can you also get a link to one of the clubs that is run by a company that doesn t qualify? You can share that off list... but I want to know where the line
          Message 4 of 13 , May 1, 2009
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            Hey can you also get a link to one of the clubs that is run by a company that doesn't qualify? You can share that off list... but I want to know where the line is... As far as I can tell most of our successful groups here in LA (general tech, not just scrum) are run by companies as cheap marketing. When are you a sponsor who couldn't get anyone else to join the party and when are you fraudulently representing yourself as a user group?

            A



            On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Cory Foy <usergroup@...> wrote:


            Hi All,

            This morning, a mutual friend connected Jim and I directly via email. We've already exchanged several emails, and he and I are going to be talking via phone tomorrow to discuss how to hammer out a way to meet what the Scrum Alliance sees as a concern (the misuse of the "Scrum" name) balanced with the need to allow user groups and community leaders to not have to worry about signing on a dotted line.

            I admit that I am quite happy to see the response from the SA so far, and I look forward to working with Jim. I'll be happy to post more back here once I've had the chance to talk to him.

            --
            Cory Foy
            http://www.cornetdesign.com
            http://www.agileflorida.com


          • Paul Oldfield
            (responding to Alan) ... Hmm... okay, but it worries me that the SA don t seem to have addressed the root causes of the last similar event. They don t
            Message 5 of 13 , May 1, 2009
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              (responding to Alan)

              >> ...I admit I was initially skeptical whether we could make
              >> this work, but I feel much more confident that this was a
              >> mistake across the board that we can all learn from, and
              >> work to figure out how to keep from happening.
              >
              > Inspect. Adapt. Very good, gentlemen! I'm anxious to see
              > what comes out of your efforts. Thank you both for working
              > the issues.

              Hmm... okay, but it worries me that the SA don't seem to
              have addressed the root causes of the last similar event.

              They don't represent the whole Scrum user community, and if
              they want to, then they should represent us, rather than
              trying to muscle in on us.

              Personally, I'd prefer they spent their funds helping Scrum
              user groups rather than persecuting ones that don't toe
              *their* (???) line, but if that's how they want to spend
              their funds, we could help them and set up loads more
              scrum user groups so they can spend their funds faster
              (or learn better ways?) :-) It seems weird that somebody
              can register a name that others have already been using;
              surely that's a law designed to benefit lawyers? Well,
              let the lawyers benefit from SA funds if SA want to play
              silly.

              Paul Oldfield
            • Alan Dayley
              ... Many, many times I have watched two engineers discuss strongly (argue?) opposing opinions only to eventually find that they agree and were simply coming to
              Message 6 of 13 , May 1, 2009
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                On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 11:00 PM, Paul Oldfield <PaulOldfield1@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> Inspect. Adapt. Very good, gentlemen! I'm anxious to see
                >> what comes out of your efforts. Thank you both for working
                >> the issues.
                >
                > Hmm... okay, but it worries me that the SA don't seem to
                > have addressed the root causes of the last similar event.
                >
                > They don't represent the whole Scrum user community, and if
                > they want to, then they should represent us, rather than
                > trying to muscle in on us.
                >
                > Personally, I'd prefer they spent their funds helping Scrum
                > user groups rather than persecuting ones that don't toe
                > *their* (???) line, but if that's how they want to spend
                > their funds, we could help them and set up loads more
                > scrum user groups so they can spend their funds faster
                > (or learn better ways?) :-) It seems weird that somebody
                > can register a name that others have already been using;
                > surely that's a law designed to benefit lawyers? Well,
                > let the lawyers benefit from SA funds if SA want to play
                > silly.

                Many, many times I have watched two engineers discuss strongly
                (argue?) opposing opinions only to eventually find that they agree and
                were simply coming to the conclusion from different points of view.
                Or, see strong discussions dissolve away to nothing when base
                assumptions are corrected. I usually don't see this happen with me,
                not because I do it less but because I don't see it when I'm in the
                middle of it.

                Here is my thinking of Scrum Alliance actions based on the assumption
                of positive intent on their part.

                In this case, I am willing to allow that people at the Scrum Alliance
                assumed this service mark protection is a good thing because their
                business experience or advice received indicated such. To them it may
                have been obviously good and reasonable. Their assumptions have now
                been corrected. (Boy, howdy was it corrected!)

                Now, from this friction, we (the community) and they (Scrum Alliance)
                have learned better how to work with one another. Our work together
                can be stronger for the experience, if we make it so.

                Form. Storm. Norm. Perform. A cycle that repeats over and over.
                We're hopefully coming out of a storm now. Relationships can be bumpy
                but many times are worth getting over the bumps.

                Inspect. Adapt. Get better and better.

                As to the "last similar event," I am ignorant of that at this moment.
                Not that I want it rehashed, whatever it was.

                Alan
              • Ilja Preuß
                Hi Alan, ... I don t think that happens just by itself. And frankly, I don t see any indication that someone at the SA is willing to take responsibility for
                Message 7 of 13 , May 2, 2009
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                  Hi Alan,

                  > Now, from this friction, we (the community) and they (Scrum Alliance)
                  > have learned better how to work with one another.  Our work together
                  > can be stronger for the experience, if we make it so.

                  I don't think that happens just by itself. And frankly, I don't see
                  any indication that someone at the SA is willing to take
                  responsibility for what happened, or that someone even thinks
                  something would better have been done differently, or should be done
                  differently in the future.

                  Perhaps it is happening, but if it is, it seems to be happening behind
                  closed doors. Which doesn't help me gain confidence. In fact, it would
                  kind of show me that what seems to be the most important lesson to me,
                  hasn't been learned.

                  But that's just me.

                  Cheers, Ilja
                • howardsublett
                  llja, Perhaps you missed this post above in the thread from yesterday: Re: Follow up to the recent trademark incident Good chat with Cory this morning and we
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 2, 2009
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                    llja,

                    Perhaps you missed this post above in the thread from yesterday:

                    Re: Follow up to the recent trademark incident

                    Good chat with Cory this morning and we have received a number of great
                    suggestions on how best to service and support Scrum User Groups. We recognize
                    that for some Scrum User Groups this agreement will not work. I think within a
                    week we will come up with a better way of getting this done and a framework that
                    will better address all our needs. Thank you Scrum community for your input and
                    help.

                    Jim Cundiff


                    To add to that post, Jim and I have met extensively over the past few days and we are meeting physically with the rest of the team on Monday to talk about how to better help our user groups and accomplish our needs. I also understand that Jim is flying out to physically meet with Cory to try to really hear the concerns he had expressed and reach out to help us serve our official groups better in this matter. Both Jim and I have spent countless hours in direct correspondence or on the phone with people just like you that have had some concerns.

                    We are working on this and we are learning from this.

                    It took time for the last agreement to be formulated and written, so please allow us the time to process what is to come.



                    Howard Sublett
                    Membership Liaison
                    Scrum Alliance, Inc.



                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Ilja Preuß <iljapreuss@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Alan,
                    >
                    > > Now, from this friction, we (the community) and they (Scrum Alliance)
                    > > have learned better how to work with one another.  Our work together
                    > > can be stronger for the experience, if we make it so.
                    >
                    > I don't think that happens just by itself. And frankly, I don't see
                    > any indication that someone at the SA is willing to take
                    > responsibility for what happened, or that someone even thinks
                    > something would better have been done differently, or should be done
                    > differently in the future.
                    >
                    > Perhaps it is happening, but if it is, it seems to be happening behind
                    > closed doors. Which doesn't help me gain confidence. In fact, it would
                    > kind of show me that what seems to be the most important lesson to me,
                    > hasn't been learned.
                    >
                    > But that's just me.
                    >
                    > Cheers, Ilja
                    >
                  • Cory Foy
                    Hi Ilja, ... Actually, if you look at my last post to the group, I said that Jim explicitly said to me on the phone that they had made a mistake, and that they
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 2, 2009
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                      Hi Ilja,

                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Ilja Preuß <iljapreuss@...> wrote:
                      > I don't think that happens just by itself. And frankly, I don't see
                      > any indication that someone at the SA is willing to take
                      > responsibility for what happened, or that someone even thinks
                      > something would better have been done differently, or should be done
                      > differently in the future.
                      >
                      > Perhaps it is happening, but if it is, it seems to be happening behind
                      > closed doors. Which doesn't help me gain confidence. In fact, it would
                      > kind of show me that what seems to be the most important lesson to me,
                      > hasn't been learned.

                      Actually, if you look at my last post to the group, I said that Jim explicitly said to me on the phone that they had made a mistake, and that they were being an impediment instead of a help, and that they wanted to change that.

                      I also said that Jim and I are meeting on Tuesday here in Tampa to map out a way to change how this works. And further, that I'd make sure that any thing we came up with I'd bring to the group first.

                      I didn't want to get too much into Jim and my discussion until we had talked more face-to-face, but here's an interesting tidbit. There are places in the world where companies, yes, companies, are naming themselves "Scrum User Group" as part of their title, and then offering "coaching" and "development" services through that company - usually by people that have not been through the Scrum classes, and often recommending things other than Scrum ("You don't need daily stand-ups! Prince2 is everything you need!").

                      So the broader question is how to we keep that from happening and diluting not only Scrum, but agile as well? And do it in a way which allows for the teeth to block things like that, but without getting in the way of the communities that are working hard to spread agile and Scrum to their communities?

                      That's what I hope to talk to him about, and what I want to bring out. I admit that I was quite skeptical, but after talking with Jim and others, I think that we can find a way to make it work.

                      Hope that helps,

                      Cory
                    • Andrew Ramsay
                      It would have been wise of the SA to cast their intent in terms other than heavy-handed, dictatorial, and threatening. /r A. Ramsay Ashburn VA ... From: Cory
                      Message 10 of 13 , May 2, 2009
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                        It would have been wise of the SA to cast their intent in terms other than heavy-handed, dictatorial, and threatening.
                         
                        /r
                         
                        A. Ramsay
                        Ashburn VA
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Cory Foy
                        Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 12:15 PM
                        Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [scrumdevelopment] Re: Follow up to the recent trademark incident

                        Hi Ilja,

                        --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Ilja Preuß <iljapreuss@ ...> wrote:
                        > I don't think that happens just by itself. And frankly, I don't see
                        > any indication that someone at the SA is willing to take
                        > responsibility for what happened, or that someone even thinks
                        > something would better have been done differently, or should be done
                        > differently in the future.
                        >
                        > Perhaps it is happening, but if it is, it seems to be happening behind
                        > closed doors. Which doesn't help me gain confidence. In fact, it would
                        > kind of show me that what seems to be the most important lesson to me,
                        > hasn't been learned.

                        Actually, if you look at my last post to the group, I said that Jim explicitly said to me on the phone that they had made a mistake, and that they were being an impediment instead of a help, and that they wanted to change that.

                        I also said that Jim and I are meeting on Tuesday here in Tampa to map out a way to change how this works. And further, that I'd make sure that any thing we came up with I'd bring to the group first.

                        I didn't want to get too much into Jim and my discussion until we had talked more face-to-face, but here's an interesting tidbit. There are places in the world where companies, yes, companies, are naming themselves "Scrum User Group" as part of their title, and then offering "coaching" and "development" services through that company - usually by people that have not been through the Scrum classes, and often recommending things other than Scrum ("You don't need daily stand-ups! Prince2 is everything you need!").

                        So the broader question is how to we keep that from happening and diluting not only Scrum, but agile as well? And do it in a way which allows for the teeth to block things like that, but without getting in the way of the communities that are working hard to spread agile and Scrum to their communities?

                        That's what I hope to talk to him about, and what I want to bring out. I admit that I was quite skeptical, but after talking with Jim and others, I think that we can find a way to make it work.

                        Hope that helps,

                        Cory

                      • Ron Jeffries
                        Hello, Andrew. On Saturday, May 2, 2009, at 12:40:07 PM, you ... Did you read the letter they sent? I did not see anything in it that was heavy-handed,
                        Message 11 of 13 , May 2, 2009
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                          Hello, Andrew. On Saturday, May 2, 2009, at 12:40:07 PM, you
                          wrote:

                          > It would have been wise of the SA to cast their intent in terms
                          > other than heavy-handed, dictatorial, and threatening.

                          Did you read the letter they sent? I did not see anything in it that
                          was heavy-handed, dictatorial, or threatening. I'd be very mildly
                          interesting in what you saw that was.

                          Ron Jeffries
                          www.XProgramming.com
                          www.xprogramming.com/blog
                          I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
                          Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
                          Yin and Yang I figure.
                          -- Tom Jeffries
                        • Paul Oldfield
                          (responding to Howard) ... Sounds promising. It would be good if a genuine Scrum user group could say what they were, even if they don t want to affiliate with
                          Message 12 of 13 , May 3, 2009
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                            (responding to Howard)

                            > ... We recognize that for some Scrum User Groups this
                            > agreement will not work. I think within a week we will come up
                            > with a better way of getting this done and a framework that
                            > will better address all our needs...

                            Sounds promising.

                            It would be good if a genuine Scrum user group could say what
                            they were, even if they don't want to affiliate with Scrum
                            Alliance or use the Logo, or pay money for use of the term
                            "Scrum User Group". Of course, where I live that's not a
                            problem; being able to give a correct description takes
                            precedence over any registration of marks, in law. You'd
                            be able to register and control "Scrum UsrGroup" for
                            example, but not "Scrum User Group". Any genuine Scrum User
                            Group would have a very good case in law to be able to use that
                            description of themselves, because that's what they are.
                            You might register the mark, but you'd have less ability
                            to control use of the words from which the mark is made up.

                            If you could prove the people describing thamselves as a
                            Scrum User Group aren't, then they'd be in a less safe position.

                            Paul Oldfield
                            Capgemini
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