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use cases vs. user stories

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  • Michael Jabbour
    Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases over user stories? Michael Jabbour
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 20 9:17 PM
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      Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases over user stories?

      Michael Jabbour
    • Ron Jeffries
      Hello, Michael. On Tuesday, April 21, 2009, at 12:17:07 AM, you ... To a first approximation: never. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com
      Message 2 of 23 , Apr 21 3:23 AM
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        Hello, Michael. On Tuesday, April 21, 2009, at 12:17:07 AM, you
        wrote:

        > Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases over user stories?

        To a first approximation: never.

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        www.xprogramming.com/blog
        I could be wrong, of course. It's just not the way to bet.
      • Mike Dwyer
        Only in cases where the cases are full cases of Iron City quarts or Slippery Rock then the stories are worth it Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T ... From: Michael
        Message 3 of 23 , Apr 21 4:09 AM
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          Only in cases where the cases are full cases of Iron City quarts or Slippery Rock then the stories are worth it

          Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T


          From: Michael Jabbour
          Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 00:17:07 -0400
          To: <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] use cases vs. user stories

          Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases over user stories?

          Michael Jabbour

        • Doug McQuilken
          Michael, One should start with user stories. At times you may find that some stories need elaboration. In this situation, I have found it beneficial to add
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 21 4:54 AM
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            Michael,

            One should start with user stories.

            At times you may find that some stories need elaboration.
            In this situation, I have found it beneficial to add simplified use cases.
            Not only do they assist in clarifying expected system behavior with the PO (aka acceptance criteria), but the PO can further utilize in stakeholder communication.

            Regards,
            Doug McQuilken

            --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Michael Jabbour <livinginspired@...> wrote:

            From: Michael Jabbour <livinginspired@...>
            Subject: [scrumdevelopment] use cases vs. user stories
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 12:17 AM

            Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases over user stories?

            Michael Jabbour

          • davenicolette
            Hi Michael, I don t think you should explicitly /choose/ use cases over user stories if you don t have to. In a transitional environment where they were
            Message 5 of 23 , Apr 21 5:39 AM
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              Hi Michael,

              I don't think you should explicitly /choose/ use cases over user stories if you don't have to.

              In a transitional environment where they were already using use cases, you may have to start or continue projects that already have a set of use cases defined. It's rarely cost-effective to stop and convert all that stuff into user stories. Depending on how the use cases were written, you may be able to treat individual use case scenarios as pseudo user stories as a starting point, hopefully with little re-work. IMHO you should use user stories for future projects.

              Regarding the suggestion to extend user stories when additional documentation is "needed," be aware that this perceived "need" may indicate some other underlying problem. (See "Obvious Example #1" in this rant...er, "article": http://www.davenicolette.net/articles/pain_killers.html) It might be helpful but it might be a "solution" to the wrong problem. Exercise caution and remain alert to other possible root causes.

              A common problem is that people lose track of non-functional requirements when they move from use cases to user stories. I think the main reason is that they focus on the Use Case artifacts exclusively. Remember to look at the Supplemental Specification, too.

              Cheers,
              Dave

              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jabbour <livinginspired@...> wrote:
              >
              > Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases over user stories?
              >
              > Michael Jabbour
              >
            • Gerard Meszaros
              I find both useful for different reasons. User stories are good for fleshing out the details incrementally but don t provide the big picture. Use cases are
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 21 8:03 AM
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                I find both useful for different reasons. User stories are good for fleshing out the details incrementally but don't provide the big picture. Use cases are good for big picture but are traditionally associated with big up-front requirements and analysis paralysis.

                I don't do full-blown use cases up front. Rather, I identify the key use cases to use as a skeleton and use the user stories to flesh them out incrementally. Whether I actually write use case documents is governed by the 3 J's: Just Enough, Just in Time, and sometimes Just Because we're told we have to.

                Best,

                Gerard


                -- 
                Gerard Meszaros
                Lean/Agile Coach/Mentor/Trainer
                http://www.gerardmeszaros.com 
                1-403-827-2967
                
                Author of the Jolt Productivity Award winning book "xUnit Test Patterns - Refactoring Test Code". Learn more at http://xunitpatterns.com/index.html


                Michael Jabbour wrote:
                Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases over user stories?

                Michael Jabbour

                
                
                
                
              • Dan Rawsthorne
                when dealing with stakeholders - not with teams Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST Senior Coach, Danube Technologies dan@danube.com, 425-269-8628
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 21 11:43 AM
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                  when dealing with stakeholders - not with teams

                  Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST
                  Senior Coach, Danube Technologies
                  dan@..., 425-269-8628



                  Ron Jeffries wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello, Michael. On Tuesday, April 21, 2009, at 12:17:07 AM, you
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > > Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases over user
                  > stories?
                  >
                  > To a first approximation: never.
                  >
                  > Ron Jeffries
                  > www.XProgramming.com
                  > www.xprogramming.com/blog
                  > I could be wrong, of course. It's just not the way to bet.
                  >
                  >
                • Amanda Abelove
                  When I m paying for development myself ;-). On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:43 AM, Dan Rawsthorne
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 21 12:09 PM
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                    When I'm paying for development myself ;-).

                    On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:43 AM, Dan Rawsthorne <dan.rawsthorne@...> wrote:


                    when dealing with stakeholders - not with teams

                    Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST
                    Senior Coach, Danube Technologies
                    dan@..., 425-269-8628

                    Ron Jeffries wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello, Michael. On Tuesday, April 21, 2009, at 12:17:07 AM, you
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > > Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases over user
                    > stories?
                    >
                    > To a first approximation: never.
                    >
                    > Ron Jeffries
                    > www.XProgramming.com
                    > www.xprogramming.com/blog
                    > I could be wrong, of course. It's just not the way to bet.
                    >
                    >


                  • Diego Pacheco
                    Agree. Use Cases are great, they are good do express the user point of view. User stories are ok too, but use cases have context, use case you use when you
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 21 12:52 PM
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                      Agree.

                       

                      Use Cases are great, they are good do express the user point of view. User stories are ok too, but use cases have context, use case you use when you work with requirements no just in the development time but also production, so use case are incremental. All this is great in a corporative scenarios when you deal wit stakeholders e you must manage change in several systems, so you need a CCB.

                       

                        Att,

                        Diego Pacheco

                        Sun Certified Web Component Developer (SCWCD 5.0)

                        Sun Certified Java Programmer (SCJP 5.0)  

                       java_cert_prog_cmyk.tifjava_cert_web_comp_dev_cmyk.tif cid:image003.png@01C8A0E2.83F39190

                        Visite meu blog: diego-pacheco

                       

                        "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."

                        "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."

                       

                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Rawsthorne
                      Sent: terça-feira, 21 de abril de 2009 15:44
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] use cases vs. user stories

                       




                      when dealing with stakeholders - not with teams

                      Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST
                      Senior Coach, Danube Technologies
                      dan@..., 425-269-8628

                      Ron Jeffries wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > Hello, Michael. On Tuesday, April 21, 2009, at 12:17:07 AM, you
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      > > Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases over user
                      > stories?
                      >
                      > To a first approximation: never.
                      >
                      > Ron Jeffries
                      > www.XProgramming.com
                      > www.xprogramming.com/blog
                      > I could be wrong, of course. It's just not the way to bet.
                      >
                      >

                    • Pablo Emanuel
                      I agree with Gerard that use cases, when done right, are very good for uncovering the big picture. There s no such thing as zero up-front design; as the
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 21 12:56 PM
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                        I agree with Gerard that use cases, when done right, are very good for uncovering the big picture. There's no such thing as zero up-front design; as the Cheshire Cat has put it, "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there." The approach that usually works for me is to elicit the workflow (cloud) use cases, and detail them to the point where the transaction (sea-level) use cases are identified (but not completely detailed). By this, we get a very clear big picture, a good initial backlog and direction to go.
                         
                        Usually, we would prioritize having a complete operational workflow. Having understood which are its components (transaction use cases), we can ask the question "which transactions are the most important to automate?", and start from those, having an incremental plan of having more of the workflow automated on each iteration, e.g. workflow W1 is composed of transactions A, B, C, D and E. On iteration 1, we would have A, B and D manual and C and E automated, on iteration 2 we would automate B, and on iteration 3 we would automate A and D (or start working on workflow W2, if there's not enough value on automating A and D). That transforms the backlog from a bag of items into a game plan, and gives the sponsor a clear answer at every point in time for the million dollar questions "what if I decide to stop it now?" and "what do I get from investing on the next iteration?".
                        How and when you detail the individual transaction use cases? Well, that's the easy part, even user stories would do the trick ;-)
                         
                        Regards,
                        Pablo Emanuel
                        2009/4/21 Gerard Meszaros <yahoo@...>


                        I find both useful for different reasons. User stories are good for fleshing out the details incrementally but don't provide the big picture. Use cases are good for big picture but are traditionally associated with big up-front requirements and analysis paralysis.

                        I don't do full-blown use cases up front. Rather, I identify the key use cases to use as a skeleton and use the user stories to flesh them out incrementally. Whether I actually write use case documents is governed by the 3 J's: Just Enough, Just in Time, and sometimes Just Because we're told we have to.

                        Best,

                        Gerard


                        -- 
                        Gerard Meszaros
                        Lean/Agile Coach/Mentor/Trainer
                        http://www.gerardmeszaros.com 
                        1-403-827-2967
                        
                        Author of the Jolt Productivity Award winning book "xUnit Test Patterns - Refactoring Test Code". Learn more at http://xunitpatterns.com/index.html


                        Michael Jabbour wrote:
                        Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases over user stories?

                        Michael Jabbour


                      • Adam Sroka
                        On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Diego Pacheco ... Use cases are more complete. Thus, if you wish to maintain the illusion that you can capture complete
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 21 1:00 PM
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                          On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Diego Pacheco
                          <diego.pacheco.it@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Agree.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Use Cases are great, they are good do express the user point of view. User
                          > stories are ok too, but use cases have context, use case you use when you
                          > work with requirements no just in the development time but also production,
                          > so use case are incremental. All this is great in a corporative scenarios
                          > when you deal wit stakeholders e you must manage change in several systems,
                          > so you need a CCB.
                          >

                          Use cases are more "complete." Thus, if you wish to maintain the
                          illusion that you can capture complete requirements in a doc, then Use
                          Cases are superior to User Stories. If, on the other hand, you have
                          accepted that "complete requirements" are an illusion then User
                          Stories are more than sufficient, because they tell you what you need
                          to demonstrate to your customer without trying to be "complete."
                        • Diego Pacheco
                          No. Sorry, but i don t agree with you. UC are not about capture full prefect complete requirements, this sound like but requirements up to front. So if you
                          Message 12 of 23 , Apr 21 2:07 PM
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                            No.

                             

                            Sorry, but i don't agree with you. UC are not about capture full prefect complete requirements, this sound like but requirements up to front. So if you take a look at frameworks like RUP and OpenUp you will see that you still can use UC and work incrementally. For me UC and US have they place in the Sun.

                             

                            Cheers.

                             

                              Att,

                              Diego Pacheco

                              Sun Certified Web Component Developer (SCWCD 5.0)

                              Sun Certified Java Programmer (SCJP 5.0)  

                             java_cert_prog_cmyk.tifjava_cert_web_comp_dev_cmyk.tif cid:image003.png@01C8A0E2.83F39190

                              Visite meu blog: diego-pacheco

                             

                              "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."

                              "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."

                             

                            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam Sroka
                            Sent: terça-feira, 21 de abril de 2009 17:00
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] use cases vs. user stories

                             




                            On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Diego Pacheco
                            <diego.pacheco.it@...> wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > Agree.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Use Cases are great, they are good do express the user point of view. User
                            > stories are ok too, but use cases have context, use case you use when you
                            > work with requirements no just in the development time but also
                            production,
                            > so use case are incremental. All this is great in a corporative scenarios
                            > when you deal wit stakeholders e you must manage change in several
                            systems,
                            > so you need a CCB.
                            >

                            Use cases are more "complete." Thus, if you wish to maintain the
                            illusion that you can capture complete requirements in a doc, then Use
                            Cases are superior to User Stories. If, on the other hand, you have
                            accepted that "complete requirements" are an illusion then User
                            Stories are more than sufficient, because they tell you what you need
                            to demonstrate to your customer without trying to be "complete."

                          • Stephen Bobick
                            +1. On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Diego Pacheco ... +1. On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Diego Pacheco wrote: No.   Sorry,
                            Message 13 of 23 , Apr 21 2:10 PM
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                              +1.

                              On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Diego Pacheco <diego.pacheco.it@gmail.com> wrote:


                              No.

                               

                              Sorry, but i don't agree with you. UC are not about capture full prefect complete requirements, this sound like but requirements up to front. So if you take a look at frameworks like RUP and OpenUp you will see that you still can use UC and work incrementally. For me UC and US have they place in the Sun.

                               

                              Cheers.

                               

                                Att,

                                Diego Pacheco

                                Sun Certified Web Component Developer (SCWCD 5.0)

                                Sun Certified Java Programmer (SCJP 5.0)  

                               java_cert_prog_cmyk.tifjava_cert_web_comp_dev_cmyk.tif cid:image003.png@01C8A0E2.83F39190

                                Visite meu blog: diego-pacheco

                               

                                "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."

                                "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."

                               

                              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam Sroka
                              Sent: terça-feira, 21 de abril de 2009 17:00
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] use cases vs. user stories

                               




                              On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Diego Pacheco
                              <diego.pacheco.it@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Agree.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Use Cases are great, they are good do express the user point of view. User
                              > stories are ok too, but use cases have context, use case you use when you
                              > work with requirements no just in the development time but also production,
                              > so use case are incremental. All this is great in a corporative scenarios
                              > when you deal wit stakeholders e you must manage change in several systems,
                              > so you need a CCB.
                              >

                              Use cases are more "complete." Thus, if you wish to maintain the
                              illusion that you can capture complete requirements in a doc, then Use
                              Cases are superior to User Stories. If, on the other hand, you have
                              accepted that "complete requirements" are an illusion then User
                              Stories are more than sufficient, because they tell you what you need
                              to demonstrate to your customer without trying to be "complete."


                            • simon.ogle
                              I m with Doug as to the approach on this one. User stories are great for the initial trawling of requirements with users / stakeholders and are usually at
                              Message 14 of 23 , Apr 21 3:26 PM
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                                I'm with Doug as to the approach on this one. User stories are great for the initial 'trawling' of requirements with users / stakeholders and are usually at the right level for prioritisation calls to be made. There is often benefit in grouping a number of user stories into what would typically be seen as a use case in order to validate that the appropriate tests (acceptance criteria) have been considered. Use cases (in the form of simple activity diagrams as opposed to verbose descriptions) do add a degree of rigour here.
                                Rgds
                                Simon Ogle

                                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Doug McQuilken <dougmcq000@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Michael,
                                >
                                > One should start with user stories.
                                >
                                > At times you may find that some stories need elaboration.
                                > In this situation, I have found it beneficial to add simplified use cases.
                                > Not only do they assist in clarifying expected system behavior with the PO (aka acceptance criteria), but the PO can further utilize in stakeholder communication.
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                > Doug McQuilken
                                >
                                > --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Michael Jabbour <livinginspired@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > From: Michael Jabbour <livinginspired@...>
                                > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] use cases vs. user stories
                                > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 12:17 AM
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases over user stories?
                                >
                                > Michael Jabbour
                                >
                              • Anthony Principato
                                Defeats the entire purpose of Scrum which is to elaborate and collaborate requirements. Why not just do wire Frames, POC and spike testing. The bottom line is
                                Message 15 of 23 , Apr 21 3:37 PM
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                                  I'm with Doug as to the approach on this one. User stories are great for the initial 'trawling' of requirements with users / stakeholders and are usually at the right level for prioritisation calls to be made. There is often benefit in grouping a number of user stories into what would typically be seen as a use case in order to validate that the appropriate tests (acceptance criteria) have been considered. Use cases (in the form of simple activity diagrams as opposed to verbose descriptions) do add a degree of rigour here.
                                  Rgds
                                  Simon Ogle

                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Doug McQuilken <dougmcq000@ ...> wrote:

                                  >
                                  > Michael,
                                  >
                                  > One should start with user stories.
                                  >
                                  > At times you may find that some stories need elaboration.
                                  > In this situation, I have found it beneficial to add simplified use cases.
                                  > Not only do they assist in clarifying expected system behavior with the PO
                                  (aka acceptance criteria), but the PO can further utilize in stakeholder communication.
                                  >
                                  > Regards,
                                  > Doug McQuilken
                                  >
                                  > --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Michael Jabbour <livinginspired@ ...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > From: Michael Jabbour <livinginspired@ ...>
                                  > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] use cases vs. user stories
                                  > To: scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 12:17 AM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases over user stories?
                                  >
                                  > Michael Jabbour
                                  >

                                • Adam Sroka
                                  On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Diego Pacheco ... In no way did I suggest that you could not apply Use Cases to working incrementally or any process for
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Apr 21 4:25 PM
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                                    On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Diego Pacheco
                                    <diego.pacheco.it@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > No.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Sorry, but i don't agree with you. UC are not about capture full prefect
                                    > complete requirements, this sound like but requirements up to front. So if
                                    > you take a look at frameworks like RUP and OpenUp you will see that you
                                    > still can use UC and work incrementally. For me UC and US have they place in
                                    > the Sun.
                                    >

                                    In no way did I suggest that you could not apply Use Cases to "working
                                    incrementally" or any process for that matter. What I did suggest was
                                    that Use Cases don't add a significant amount of value over User
                                    Stories if you are coming from a perspective that sees requirements as
                                    a shared conversation between customers and developers and not as
                                    something to be "captured" or "documented".

                                    Conversations are ongoing and can't be captured. A story is a rough
                                    reminder of what that conversation should be about.
                                  • Michael Jabbour
                                    Thanks for the responses! I are going to be delivering a compare/contrast session at the NY XP meetup tomorrow http://xp.meetup.com/26/. Anyone is welcome to
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Apr 22 12:11 AM
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                                      Thanks for the responses!

                                      I are going to be delivering a compare/contrast session at the NY XP meetup tomorrow http://xp.meetup.com/26/.  Anyone is welcome to signup if there are open spots.

                                      Have folks had success using use cases for smaller projects in smaller teams? Distributed teams? Personal projects? If so, are we talking about full use cases or ultra-light?

                                      Thanks again everyone!

                                      Michael Jabbour, CSP, LAc, MS
                                      Soft Illuminations, Inc. - CEO
                                      Twitter+AIM+Skype+Gtalk: livinginspired
                                      Mobile: +1 (347) 879-5777  Fax: +1 (319) 856-7367




                                      On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 7:25 PM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:


                                      On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Diego Pacheco


                                      <diego.pacheco.it@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > No.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Sorry, but i don't agree with you. UC are not about capture full prefect
                                      > complete requirements, this sound like but requirements up to front. So if
                                      > you take a look at frameworks like RUP and OpenUp you will see that you
                                      > still can use UC and work incrementally. For me UC and US have they place in
                                      > the Sun.
                                      >

                                      In no way did I suggest that you could not apply Use Cases to "working
                                      incrementally" or any process for that matter. What I did suggest was
                                      that Use Cases don't add a significant amount of value over User
                                      Stories if you are coming from a perspective that sees requirements as
                                      a shared conversation between customers and developers and not as
                                      something to be "captured" or "documented".

                                      Conversations are ongoing and can't be captured. A story is a rough
                                      reminder of what that conversation should be about.

                                    • Paul Oldfield
                                      (responding to Michael) ... Use cases are really designed to cover the case where we cannot have the conversation of a User Story as the development work is
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Apr 22 1:29 AM
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                                        (responding to Michael)

                                        > Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases
                                        > over user stories?

                                        Use cases are really designed to cover the case where we
                                        cannot have the 'conversation' of a User Story as the
                                        development work is being done, so we need to capture the
                                        requirements earlier and store them until needed.

                                        It's always preferable (IMHO) to get the requirements just
                                        in time. Unfortunately, in some cases people prioritise
                                        their work so they aren't free to give their requirements
                                        to us just in time, and clarify them as the questions
                                        arise. If they are happy to pay a lot more for lower
                                        quality functionality we might not get to change their minds
                                        on that.

                                        Paul Oldfield
                                        Capgemini
                                      • Gerard Meszaros
                                        I ve seen many so-called agile projects write detailed descriptions of user stories so that they don t need to have the conversation. Does this make user
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Apr 22 8:27 PM
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                                          I've seen many so-called agile projects write detailed descriptions of user stories so that they don't need to have the conversation. Does this make user stories flawed as many contributors to this list have implied about use cases?

                                          I agree that the value is in the conversation and not the documentation. Use cases and user stories are different ways to slice the functionality of the system. Both user stories and use cases can be applied in a document-centric way and both can be used in a light-weight way to facilitate conversations about the functionality.  User stories are a better way of organizing the work to build the system incrementally while use cases are a better way to organize the functionality to facilitate the understanding of the overall system. They are both valuable. We should not ignore use cases just because of their past association with document-centric methodolgies. When used in a light-weight way they are completely complementary to user stories and can help us avoid common failure modes of agile projects.

                                          Let us not throw out the baby with the bath water!

                                          Best,

                                          Gerard

                                          Paul Oldfield wrote:
                                          (responding to Michael)
                                          
                                            
                                          Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases
                                          over user stories?
                                              
                                          Use cases are really designed to cover the case where we 
                                          cannot have the 'conversation' of a User Story as the 
                                          development work is being done, so we need to capture the
                                          requirements earlier and store them until needed.
                                          
                                          It's always preferable (IMHO) to get the requirements just
                                          in time.  Unfortunately, in some cases people prioritise
                                          their work so they aren't free to give their requirements
                                          to us just in time, and clarify them as the questions
                                          arise.  If they are happy to pay a lot more for lower
                                          quality functionality we might not get to change their minds
                                          on that.
                                          
                                          Paul Oldfield
                                          Capgemini
                                          
                                          
                                          
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                                          -- 
                                          Gerard Meszaros
                                          Lean/Agile Coach/Mentor/Trainer
                                          http://www.gerardmeszaros.com 
                                          1-403-827-2967
                                          
                                          Author of the Jolt Productivity Award winning book "xUnit Test Patterns - Refactoring Test Code". Learn more at http://xunitpatterns.com/index.html
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                        • Diego Pacheco
                                          I m not sure about this. Requirements its about what to do no like how to do they are not conversation. And you could have a requirements written focused
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Apr 22 9:27 PM
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                                            I'm not sure about this.

                                             

                                            Requirements its about "what to do" no like "how to do" they are not conversation. And you could have a requirements written focused in a high business level, so you extract what to do, you still have conversation about how to do e some details, requirements isn't about frozen the changes.

                                             

                                            You have to balance agility and discipline project by project, and use UC is not throw the quality away.

                                             

                                              Att,

                                              Diego Pacheco

                                              Software Architect

                                              Sun Certified Web Component Developer (SCWCD 5.0)

                                              Sun Certified Java Programmer (SCJP 5.0)    

                                              My blog: http://diego-pacheco.blogspot.com/

                                             

                                              "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."

                                              "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."

                                             

                                            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Oldfield
                                            Sent: quarta-feira, 22 de abril de 2009 05:30
                                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: use cases vs. user stories

                                             




                                            (responding to Michael)

                                            > Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases
                                            > over user stories?

                                            Use cases are really designed to cover the case where we
                                            cannot have the 'conversation' of a User Story as the
                                            development work is being done, so we need to capture the
                                            requirements earlier and store them until needed.

                                            It's always preferable (IMHO) to get the requirements just
                                            in time. Unfortunately, in some cases people prioritise
                                            their work so they aren't free to give their requirements
                                            to us just in time, and clarify them as the questions
                                            arise. If they are happy to pay a lot more for lower
                                            quality functionality we might not get to change their minds
                                            on that.

                                            Paul Oldfield
                                            Capgemini

                                          • Diego Pacheco
                                            +1 Att, Diego Pacheco Software Architect Sun Certified Web Component Developer (SCWCD 5.0) Sun Certified Java Programmer (SCJP 5.0) My blog:
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Apr 22 9:41 PM
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                                              +1

                                               

                                                Att,

                                                Diego Pacheco

                                                Software Architect

                                                Sun Certified Web Component Developer (SCWCD 5.0)

                                                Sun Certified Java Programmer (SCJP 5.0)    

                                                My blog: http://diego-pacheco.blogspot.com/

                                               

                                                "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."

                                                "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."

                                               

                                              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerard Meszaros
                                              Sent: quinta-feira, 23 de abril de 2009 00:28
                                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: use cases vs. user stories

                                               




                                              I've seen many so-called agile projects write detailed descriptions of user stories so that they don't need to have the conversation. Does this make user stories flawed as many contributors to this list have implied about use cases?

                                              I agree that the value is in the conversation and not the documentation. Use cases and user stories are different ways to slice the functionality of the system. Both user stories and use cases can be applied in a document-centric way and both can be used in a light-weight way to facilitate conversations about the functionality.  User stories are a better way of organizing the work to build the system incrementally while use cases are a better way to organize the functionality to facilitate the understanding of the overall system. They are both valuable. We should not ignore use cases just because of their past association with document-centric methodolgies. When used in a light-weight way they are completely complementary to user stories and can help us avoid common failure modes of agile projects.

                                              Let us not throw out the baby with the bath water!

                                              Best,

                                              Gerard

                                              Paul Oldfield wrote:

                                              (responding to Michael)
                                                
                                                
                                              Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases
                                              over user stories?
                                                  
                                                
                                              Use cases are really designed to cover the case where we 
                                              cannot have the 'conversation' of a User Story as the 
                                              development work is being done, so we need to capture the
                                              requirements earlier and store them until needed.
                                                
                                              It's always preferable (IMHO) to get the requirements just
                                              in time.  Unfortunately, in some cases people prioritise
                                              their work so they aren't free to give their requirements
                                              to us just in time, and clarify them as the questions
                                              arise.  If they are happy to pay a lot more for lower
                                              quality functionality we might not get to change their minds
                                              on that.
                                                
                                              Paul Oldfield
                                              Capgemini
                                                
                                                
                                                
                                              ------------------------------------
                                                
                                              To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                                              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                                                
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                                              -- 
                                              Gerard Meszaros
                                              Lean/Agile Coach/Mentor/Trainer
                                              http://www.gerardmeszaros.com 
                                              1-403-827-2967
                                                
                                              Author of the Jolt Productivity Award winning book "xUnit Test Patterns - Refactoring Test Code". Learn more at http://xunitpatterns.com/index.html
                                                
                                                
                                                

                                            • Joe Jin
                                              This paper may help you. Use Cases or User Stories? http://www.infoq.com/news/2008/07/use-case-or-user-story Joe On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Michael
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Apr 22 11:42 PM
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                                                This paper may help you.
                                                 
                                                Use Cases or User Stories?
                                                 
                                                Joe

                                                On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Michael Jabbour <livinginspired@...> wrote:


                                                Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases over user stories?

                                                Michael Jabbour


                                              • Michael Jabbour
                                                I just wanted let the group know that the meetup went great. My colleague and I prepared a short presentation on the material with some group exercises in the
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Apr 26 1:03 PM
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                                                  I just wanted let the group know that the meetup went great. My colleague and I prepared a short presentation on the material with some group exercises in the creation of user stories and use cases (along with pizza and bevrages).

                                                  Here are some interesting stats from the meetup.  ~40 people in the group.

                                                  user stories vs. use cases
                                                   -1 person heard of and used user stories before
                                                   -8 people heard of user stories prior but knew nothing and came to learn
                                                   - ~75% heard of use cases
                                                   - ~8 people have used use cases in the past

                                                  group composition

                                                   -1 non-technical person in the group
                                                   -approximately 9 project managers, 5 of which had 10+ years experience in PM, 3 of whom were technical
                                                   -most have heard of agile and had partial implementations in their respective companies
                                                   -most were developers, maybe 2 or 3 pro testers

                                                  The goal was not only to compare and contrast US vs. UC but to give a tactile sense of the difference between them. Additionally some practical differences which were fleshed out of the discussions following the exercises. The group was referred to User Stories Applied and Writing Effective Use Cases for info and the ScrumMaster course for those interested in learning more.

                                                  More info here: http://xpnyc.org/index.php?title=Use_Cases_vs._User_Stories

                                                  Thanks for all the feedback from this group, it was helpful!

                                                  Michael Jabbour, CSP, LAc, MS
                                                  Soft Illuminations, Inc. - CEO
                                                  Twitter+AIM+Skype+Gtalk: livinginspired
                                                  Mobile: +1 (347) 879-5777  Fax: +1 (319) 856-7367




                                                  On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Joe Jin <jykojin@...> wrote:


                                                  This paper may help you.
                                                   
                                                  Use Cases or User Stories?
                                                   
                                                  Joe

                                                  On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Michael Jabbour <livinginspired@...> wrote:


                                                  Anyone have any thoughts on when one should use use cases over user stories?

                                                  Michael Jabbour



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