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Re: [scrumdevelopment] How many chickens is too many?

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  • Peter Stevens (calendar)
    Hi Jason, How much ham do you put in your omeletts? When does it stop being an omelett iand become just fried ham? Oops, got that backwards. There s gotta be a
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 12, 2009
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      Hi Jason,

      How much ham do you put in your omeletts? When does it stop being an omelett iand become just fried ham? Oops, got that backwards. There's gotta be a good joke in there somewhre ;-)

      On all the times I have coached, it has been almost always just the team. Every once in while the Product Owner drops in. In my latest project, the team just insisted that the P-O join the Daily Scrum.

      Why are the managers so interested in being there? Are they really playing by the rules (no talking, no making faces, no giving unwanted advice or instructions before or after the Daily Scrum?)

      The purpose of the Daily Scrum is for the team to self organize, not to inform Stakeholders. If the chickens are making the team uncomfortable, I would politely uninvite the managers.  Probably that's an all or none proposition, and the diplomatic skills of the ScrumMaster must rise to the occaision!

      Cheers,
      Peter


      SJPlante wrote:

      We've run into a situation where some team members feel that there are too many managers attending the daily scrum, and because of that they feel very uncomfortable giving their status. A typical team will have five or six members and sometimes we'll have four or five managers attend the scrum (they are not allowed to speak). Some managers have their arguments as to why they feel they need to be there, arguments that I totally disagree with. So I'm curious as to what a daily scrum looks like at other companies. Other than product owner, scrum master, and team members, who else shows up to your daily scrum?

      Thanks,
      Jason



      -- 
      Peter Stevens, CSM, CSP
      http://tinyurl.com/Scrum-In-House-Training
      http://scrum-breakfast.com
      tel: +41 44 586 6450
      
    • Roy Morien
      Daily Scrums are not for the purpose of giving management performance or project status updates ... plain and simple fact. The managers have no part in that.
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 12, 2009
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        Daily Scrums are not for the purpose of giving management performance or project status updates ... plain and simple fact. The managers have no part in that. For them to want to attend and participate is micro-management at its worst.
         
        I feel sorry for you being in that invidious position. You can't do much about it if the managers are so up themselves that they insist. They clearly do not comprehend the situation, and that their presence destroys so much of the purpose of the daily scrum.
         
        Maybe a little subterfuge is neccesary. Pretend to have the daily Scrum and make it fast and efficient ... 15 minutes max. Then go somewhere else and have a real one, sans managers :) Maybe have yesterday's Daily Scrum this morning, but don't tell the managers.
         
        Regards,
        Roy Morien
         

        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        From: jasonplante@...
        Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 13:59:58 +0000
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] How many chickens is too many?

        We've run into a situation where some team members feel that there are too many managers attending the daily scrum, and because of that they feel very uncomfortable giving their status. A typical team will have five or six members and sometimes we'll have four or five managers attend the scrum (they are not allowed to speak). Some managers have their arguments as to why they feel they need to be there, arguments that I totally disagree with. So I'm curious as to what a daily scrum looks like at other companies. Other than product owner, scrum master, and team members, who else shows up to your daily scrum?

        Thanks,
        Jason




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      • William Wake
        ... Other than the ones you mention, sometimes managers from one or two levels up. I have to say though, I m more interested in *your* situation:) What are the
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 12, 2009
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          > Other than product owner, scrum master, and team members, who else shows up to
          > your daily scrum?
          Other than the ones you mention, sometimes managers from one or two levels up.

          I have to say though, I'm more interested in *your* situation:)

          What are the reasons the managers want to be there? At least they're
          behaving:) (Or does this cause problems afterward?) And who are these
          managers - matrixed managers for the team members, managers of the end
          user, managers up the chain, etc.?

          When you say "arguments that I totally disagree with" are you
          disagreeing with what they want, or that attending the standup is a
          way to get it?

          And why is the team uncomfortable? Is there a gap in transparency?

          Regards,
          Bill Wake
          On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 9:59 AM, SJPlante <jasonplante@...> wrote:
          > We've run into a situation where some team members feel that there are too
          > many managers attending the daily scrum, and because of that they feel very
          > uncomfortable giving their status. A typical team will have five or six
          > members and sometimes we'll have four or five managers attend the scrum
          > (they are not allowed to speak). Some managers have their arguments as to
          > why they feel they need to be there, arguments that I totally disagree with.
          > So I'm curious as to what a daily scrum looks like at other companies. Other
          > than product owner, scrum master, and team members, who else shows up to
          > your daily scrum?
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Jason
          >
          >



          --
          Bill Wake William.Wake@... www.xp123.com
        • Amanda Abelove
          I only have me and the pigs at my scrum. Sadly, people object to getting smacked with a whiffle bat when they try to expand the scope. It is easier to just not
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 12, 2009
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            I only have me and the pigs at my scrum. Sadly, people object to getting smacked with a whiffle bat when they try to expand the scope. It is easier to just not invite them. 

            On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 6:59 AM, SJPlante <jasonplante@...> wrote:

            We've run into a situation where some team members feel that there are too many managers attending the daily scrum, and because of that they feel very uncomfortable giving their status. A typical team will have five or six members and sometimes we'll have four or five managers attend the scrum (they are not allowed to speak). Some managers have their arguments as to why they feel they need to be there, arguments that I totally disagree with. So I'm curious as to what a daily scrum looks like at other companies. Other than product owner, scrum master, and team members, who else shows up to your daily scrum?

            Thanks,
            Jason


          • Mamun
            We are getting the one sided story here, we cannot conclude anything before knowing the management perspective here. If management are also not running Agile
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 12, 2009
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              We are getting the one sided story here, we cannot conclude anything before knowing the management perspective here. If management are also not running Agile and not supporting the values and concept, there is no meaning to lying them! It no way improves the situation!
               
              Jason, why don't you (or the SM) directly talk about it with the managers? Transparency is one of the important key factors in Scrum. If we fail to maintain it, we are simply not doing Scrum.
               
              BR
              ~Mamun

              --- On Fri, 3/13/09, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
              From: Roy Morien <roymorien@...>
              Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] How many chickens is too many?
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, March 13, 2009, 12:14 AM

              Daily Scrums are not for the purpose of giving management performance or project status updates ... plain and simple fact. The managers have no part in that. For them to want to attend and participate is micro-management at its worst.
               
              I feel sorry for you being in that invidious position. You can't do much about it if the managers are so up themselves that they insist. They clearly do not comprehend the situation, and that their presence destroys so much of the purpose of the daily scrum.
               
              Maybe a little subterfuge is neccesary. Pretend to have the daily Scrum and make it fast and efficient ... 15 minutes max. Then go somewhere else and have a real one, sans managers :) Maybe have yesterday's Daily Scrum this morning, but don't tell the managers.
               
              Regards,
              Roy Morien
               

              To: scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com
              From: jasonplante@ yahoo.com
              Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 13:59:58 +0000
              Subject: [scrumdevelopment] How many chickens is too many?

              We've run into a situation where some team members feel that there are too many managers attending the daily scrum, and because of that they feel very uncomfortable giving their status. A typical team will have five or six members and sometimes we'll have four or five managers attend the scrum (they are not allowed to speak). Some managers have their arguments as to why they feel they need to be there, arguments that I totally disagree with. So I'm curious as to what a daily scrum looks like at other companies. Other than product owner, scrum master, and team members, who else shows up to your daily scrum?

              Thanks,
              Jason




              Explore the new Windows Live. Looking for a place to manage all your online stuff?

            • majkic.sensei
              I suppose that being honest to all is the best solution. If team is feeling uncomfortable, productivity will go down, and I guess that non-agile managers would
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 12, 2009
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                I suppose that being honest to all is the best solution. If team is feeling uncomfortable, productivity will go down, and I guess that non-agile managers would understand this language. I would make one meeting for managers, PO and would frankly say: "Developers are feeling uncomfortable with such a big number of chickens on daily scrum. They feel being micromanaged and this ruins agile spirit and agile benefits. This will harm the project." Then I would suggest daily "chicken" meeting (have nothing with Scrum), where PO (or even I as SM) would tell them about status. And of course, I would invite them to Scrum Demo meetings, where they could stay in touch with developers.

                I hope this helps.

                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "SJPlante" <jasonplante@...> wrote:
                >
                > We've run into a situation where some team members feel that there are too many managers attending the daily scrum, and because of that they feel very uncomfortable giving their status. A typical team will have five or six members and sometimes we'll have four or five managers attend the scrum (they are not allowed to speak). Some managers have their arguments as to why they feel they need to be there, arguments that I totally disagree with. So I'm curious as to what a daily scrum looks like at other companies. Other than product owner, scrum master, and team members, who else shows up to your daily scrum?
                >
                > Thanks,
                > Jason
                >
              • Adam Sroka
                On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Peter Stevens (calendar) ... I was going to say it depends on what part of the chicken you are eating. If you are only eating
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 12, 2009
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                  On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Peter Stevens (calendar)
                  <peterstev@...> wrote:
                  > Hi Jason,
                  >
                  > How much ham do you put in your omeletts? When does it stop being an omelett
                  > iand become just fried ham? Oops, got that backwards. There's gotta be a
                  > good joke in there somewhre ;-)
                  >

                  I was going to say it depends on what part of the chicken you are
                  eating. If you are only eating the wings you are going to want more
                  chickens to contribute. However, that breaks the whole silly metaphor.
                  You Scrum guys don't eat chicken, you only eat developers... err Pigs.
                • Tom Mellor
                  In the CSM course, we train that the daily scrum is a planning meeting for the team. Chickens attend by invitation only. I had a director show up at a scrum
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 12, 2009
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                    Re: How many chickens is too many?

                    In the CSM course, we train that the daily scrum is a planning meeting for the team.  Chickens attend by invitation only.  I had a director show up at a scrum and actually identified himself as a "chicken" and asked if he could attend.  I, the ScrumMaster, looked around at team members and I could sense that there was some tension and surprise by this unforeseen event.  So, I politely responded to the director that the scrum was for the team only and he was welcome to come in after it concluded if he wanted.  He left and waited outside the team room.  I invited him in after the scrum and he said that he had heard very good things about their work from the business side and wanted to relay that in person.  He then left. 

                    One of the team members asked if it was appropriate to ask a director to leave the scrum.  I looked around the team and asked what they thought.  A couple of them said his arrival had caught them by surprise and they were suspicious of what was behind it (perhaps an "experiential thing"??)  Then the discussion turned to transparency when a couple of people suggested that if the team were to be truly transparent, it shouldn't matter if a chicken was in the room as long as the chicken understood the rules and didn't interfere or try to control.  I asked the team as a whole if they thought his presence might change the environment of trust and cause them to withhold or change information.  All agreed that it shouldn't, but they couldn't say it wouldn't.  With that, I suggested that the environment of trust is critical to being transparent, so there seems to be a deeper issue.  They acknowledged that.  But, that wasn't the time or place to deal with a deeply embedded cultural issue.

                    The team did admit that his immediate compliance with my request to leave left them feeling a bit conflicted - suspicious initially on one hand and yet confounded that he immediately left without objection and rather humbly.  Interestingly, it never happened again but it caused a bit of wonderment among the team about the whole episode.  No easy answer as to whether it was handled appropriately, but the results were intriguing. 

                    Tom Mellor
                    Certified Scrum Trainer
                     

                  • Whitten, Richard
                    I have banned all managers from my daily Scrum meetings - for the reason you outlined below. Rich From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 12, 2009
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                      I have banned all managers from my daily Scrum meetings – for the reason you outlined below.

                       

                      Rich

                       

                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SJPlante
                      Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 7:00 AM
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] How many chickens is too many?

                       

                      We've run into a situation where some team members feel that there are too many managers attending the daily scrum, and because of that they feel very uncomfortable giving their status. A typical team will have five or six members and sometimes we'll have four or five managers attend the scrum (they are not allowed to speak). Some managers have their arguments as to why they feel they need to be there, arguments that I totally disagree with. So I'm curious as to what a daily scrum looks like at other companies. Other than product owner, scrum master, and team members, who else shows up to your daily scrum?

                      Thanks,
                      Jason

                    • lukevisser
                      Wow, what an intriguing discussion. I liked the comment earlier regarding only getting one perspective. So, I thought I d add mine, from the chicken s
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 12, 2009
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                        Wow, what an intriguing discussion. I liked the comment earlier regarding only getting one perspective. So, I thought I'd add mine, from the chicken's perspective. Actually I think the metaphor is crap because my stake (as a supposed chicken) is pretty high too.

                        The ratio of managers to team members can range from 1:2 to 1:5 in the team standups we have here. We (the team members) actively encourage managers to come along to our morning standups. They love the fact that their lives (at work) are taken an interest in by the people that "manage" them.

                        You'd be surprised how much a CEO/MD actually has a stake in your project. Especially if the money for the project is coming directly from his/her pocket. Kind of makes the chicken/pig analogy mute.

                        I think when you don't want to have management there you have issues you should deal with internally. You may not of course, but my experience suggests that in teams like that you do.

                        Lack of transparency. You're saying things that you don't want managers to hear (rightly or wrongly). That's because by the time it's got to management it's been "adjusted" for their ears. We want our managers to know what's going on, we want them to understand the intricacies, wins and losses. We want them to know based on reality not heresay. As a manager, I want to know too. Transparency should be encouraged and any mechanism put in place to stifle it is causing your organisation problems.

                        Intimidation. Notice this one all the time. Lots of people are intimidated in direct proportion to the level of the manager. It's silly, not needed and unhelpful. But ... it's human. If you have a manager that likes intimidating then talk to him/her about it. Work never gets done better by intimidation. If engineers are intimidated by managers, sit down and talk with them, find out why and look to solving it.

                        Road Blocks. It's amazing how much easier it is for a manager to get rid of road blocks when an engineer/developer might spend considerable time grumbling and running into brick walls. If "road block" identification is part of your standup (and it should be) then having managers there is really useful.

                        There's probably others but they're the obvious ones to me that I've seen over time. Managers are people too, have as many foibles and nuances as everyone else. For the most part they want to help and ensure projects work well too. Don't exclude them from your projects, they can be very useful allies.

                        Oh, forgot this one. Crap Managers. That one is much, much harder to deal with :-). Yep, might mean a quite coffee discussion between a senior member (or the most diplomatic one) with the manager to determine his/her motivations for attending.

                        Luke

                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Whitten, Richard" <richard.whitten@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I have banned all managers from my daily Scrum meetings - for the reason
                        > you outlined below.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Rich
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SJPlante
                        > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 7:00 AM
                        > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] How many chickens is too many?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > We've run into a situation where some team members feel that there are
                        > too many managers attending the daily scrum, and because of that they
                        > feel very uncomfortable giving their status. A typical team will have
                        > five or six members and sometimes we'll have four or five managers
                        > attend the scrum (they are not allowed to speak). Some managers have
                        > their arguments as to why they feel they need to be there, arguments
                        > that I totally disagree with. So I'm curious as to what a daily scrum
                        > looks like at other companies. Other than product owner, scrum master,
                        > and team members, who else shows up to your daily scrum?
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        > Jason
                        >
                      • Roy Morien
                        If the managerial culture is a supportive, encouraging, mentoring type culture, then having the managers there can be beneficial, showing (as has been
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 12, 2009
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                          If the managerial culture is a supportive, encouraging, mentoring type culture, then having the managers there can be beneficial, showing (as has been suggesyed in this post) interest ans support, and giving the developers a positive boost. Part of this culture is a feeling of freedom to admit mistakes and shortcomings, and seek team assistance to overcome this. I would suggest that problems take up the most time in a meeting, rather than successes, which are probably noted with approval and then the meeting moves on.
                           
                          The opposite situation is one that is unfottunately more prevalent, and that is a management culture of control, discipline, blame, where it is just not a good idea to admit mistakes or problems in front of the managers - especially if some of those problems arise because of the actions and decisions of those same managers. I have experienced this 'toxic' environment and learned quite soon to shutup when a particular manager was there mainly to note the shortcomings of everyone, rather than to become aware of their successes.
                           
                          However, one way or the other, the fact is that the Daily Standup is regulated by certain very sensible rules. Keep it short, stand and don't sit, address three questions honestly and quickly exchange the necessary information. Follow up any necessary points with off-line discussion. So, where do the managers really fit in here? They don't!
                           
                          Regards,
                          Roy Morien 
                           

                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          From: luke.visser@...
                          Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 00:41:21 +0000
                          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: How many chickens is too many?

                          Wow, what an intriguing discussion. I liked the comment earlier regarding only getting one perspective. So, I thought I'd add mine, from the chicken's perspective. Actually I think the metaphor is crap because my stake (as a supposed chicken) is pretty high too.

                          The ratio of managers to team members can range from 1:2 to 1:5 in the team standups we have here. We (the team members) actively encourage managers to come along to our morning standups. They love the fact that their lives (at work) are taken an interest in by the people that "manage" them.

                          You'd be surprised how much a CEO/MD actually has a stake in your project. Especially if the money for the project is coming directly from his/her pocket. Kind of makes the chicken/pig analogy mute.

                          I think when you don't want to have management there you have issues you should deal with internally. You may not of course, but my experience suggests that in teams like that you do.

                          Lack of transparency. You're saying things that you don't want managers to hear (rightly or wrongly). That's because by the time it's got to management it's been "adjusted" for their ears. We want our managers to know what's going on, we want them to understand the intricacies, wins and losses. We want them to know based on reality not heresay. As a manager, I want to know too. Transparency should be encouraged and any mechanism put in place to stifle it is causing your organisation problems.

                          Intimidation. Notice this one all the time. Lots of people are intimidated in direct proportion to the level of the manager. It's silly, not needed and unhelpful. But ... it's human. If you have a manager that likes intimidating then talk to him/her about it. Work never gets done better by intimidation. If engineers are intimidated by managers, sit down and talk with them, find out why and look to solving it.

                          Road Blocks. It's amazing how much easier it is for a manager to get rid of road blocks when an engineer/developer might spend considerable time grumbling and running into brick walls. If "road block" identification is part of your standup (and it should be) then having managers there is really useful.

                          There's probably others but they're the obvious ones to me that I've seen over time. Managers are people too, have as many foibles and nuances as everyone else. For the most part they want to help and ensure projects work well too. Don't exclude them from your projects, they can be very useful allies.

                          Oh, forgot this one. Crap Managers. That one is much, much harder to deal with :-). Yep, might mean a quite coffee discussion between a senior member (or the most diplomatic one) with the manager to determine his/her motivations for attending.

                          Luke

                          --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, "Whitten, Richard" <richard.whitten@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I have banned all managers from my daily Scrum meetings - for the reason
                          > you outlined below.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Rich
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > From: scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com
                          > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of SJPlante
                          > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 7:00 AM
                          > To: scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com
                          > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] How many chickens is too many?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > We've run into a situation where some team members feel that there are
                          > too many managers attending the daily scrum, and because of that they
                          > feel very uncomfortable giving their status. A typical team will have
                          > five or six members and sometimes we'll have four or five managers
                          > attend the scrum (they are not allowed to speak). Some managers have
                          > their arguments as to why they feel they need to be there, arguments
                          > that I totally disagree with. So I'm curious as to what a daily scrum
                          > looks like at other companies. Other than product owner, scrum master,
                          > and team members, who else shows up to your daily scrum?
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          > Jason
                          >




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                        • Tapio Kulmala
                          Hello Roy. If a developer brings out an impediment, one of the chickens/managers could know how to remove that impediment right away. It could make the scrum
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 13, 2009
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                            Hello Roy.

                            If a developer brings out an impediment, one of the chickens/managers could know how to remove that impediment right away. It could make the scrum master's life a lot easier.

                            Tapio



                            On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 5:40 AM, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:

                            However, one way or the other, the fact is that the Daily Standup is regulated by certain very sensible rules. Keep it short, stand and don't sit, address three questions honestly and quickly exchange the necessary information. Follow up any necessary points with off-line discussion. So, where do the managers really fit in here? They don't


                          • Roy Morien
                            That is why the Product Owner should be there, not a variety of managers. The situation that you describe has the potential to cause confusion, where the
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 13, 2009
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                              That is why the Product Owner should be there, not a variety of managers. The situation that you describe has the potential to cause confusion, where the developers may start to feel that they have many masters who may or may not agree with each other.
                               
                              But so much depends on the managerial culture, the acceptance of and support of Scrum by managers, etc.
                               
                              Regards,
                              Roy Morien
                               

                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              From: tapiokulmala@...
                              Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:25:39 +0200
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: How many chickens is too many?

                              Hello Roy.

                              If a developer brings out an impediment, one of the chickens/managers could know how to remove that impediment right away. It could make the scrum master's life a lot easier.

                              Tapio



                              On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 5:40 AM, Roy Morien <roymorien@hotmail. com> wrote:

                              However, one way or the other, the fact is that the Daily Standup is regulated by certain very sensible rules. Keep it short, stand and don't sit, address three questions honestly and quickly exchange the necessary information. Follow up any necessary points with off-line discussion. So, where do the managers really fit in here? They don't





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                            • Ron Jeffries
                              ... I ve probably done such things, but in the end, the relationship between team and management cannot prosper unless we work toward transparency. This would
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 13, 2009
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                                Hello, Roy. On Thursday, March 12, 2009, at 2:14:56 PM, you wrote:

                                > Maybe a little subterfuge is neccesary. Pretend to have the daily
                                > Scrum and make it fast and efficient ... 15 minutes max. Then go
                                > somewhere else and have a real one, sans managers :) Maybe have
                                > yesterday's Daily Scrum this morning, but don't tell the managers.

                                I've probably done such things, but in the end, the relationship
                                between team and management cannot prosper unless we work toward
                                transparency. This would be a step away from transparency in my
                                opinion, and as such a very bad precedent.

                                Ron Jeffries
                                www.XProgramming.com
                                www.xprogramming.com/blog
                                Attend our CSM Plus Course!
                                http://hendricksonxp.com/index.php?option=com_eventlist&Itemid=28
                                If there's only one answer, then this must not be a very interesting topic.
                              • Roy Morien
                                I agree entirely, Ron, and my suggestion was not totally serious ... but unfortunately there are some managers who just cannot control themselves, and it is
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 13, 2009
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                                  I agree entirely, Ron, and my suggestion was not totally serious ... but unfortunately there are some managers who just cannot control themselves, and it is virtually impossible to be transparent with them. Any admission of a problem or a mistake made, or similar admission, is just what such a manager is looking for to allow him (or her) to assert their power and authority. Subterfuge is sometimes a survival tactic.
                                   
                                  Regards,
                                  Roy Morien
                                   

                                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: ronjeffries@...
                                  Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 07:12:18 -0400
                                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] How many chickens is too many?

                                  Hello, Roy. On Thursday, March 12, 2009, at 2:14:56 PM, you wrote:

                                  > Maybe a little subterfuge is neccesary. Pretend to have the daily
                                  > Scrum and make it fast and efficient ... 15 minutes max. Then go
                                  > somewhere else and have a real one, sans managers :) Maybe have
                                  > yesterday's Daily Scrum this morning, but don't tell the managers.

                                  I've probably done such things, but in the end, the relationship
                                  between team and management cannot prosper unless we work toward
                                  transparency. This would be a step away from transparency in my
                                  opinion, and as such a very bad precedent.

                                  Ron Jeffries
                                  www.XProgramming. com
                                  www.xprogramming. com/blog
                                  Attend our CSM Plus Course!
                                  http://hendricksonx p.com/index. php?option= com_eventlist& Itemid=28
                                  If there's only one answer, then this must not be a very interesting topic.




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                                • Ron Jeffries
                                  ... It can be. I find survival tactics to be a poor refuge, but in tough times what can anyone do? And some people aren t as crazy as I am. What I choose to
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Mar 13, 2009
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                                    Hello, Roy. On Friday, March 13, 2009, at 7:32:23 AM, you wrote:

                                    > I agree entirely, Ron, and my suggestion was not totally serious
                                    > ... but unfortunately there are some managers who just cannot
                                    > control themselves, and it is virtually impossible to be
                                    > transparent with them. Any admission of a problem or a mistake
                                    > made, or similar admission, is just what such a manager is looking
                                    > for to allow him (or her) to assert their power and authority.
                                    > Subterfuge is sometimes a survival tactic.

                                    It can be. I find survival tactics to be a poor refuge, but in tough
                                    times what can anyone do? And some people aren't as crazy as I am.

                                    What I choose to believe -- despite its obvious untruth -- is that
                                    by being transparent with such a manager, and jawboning him
                                    mercilessly, I can bring him around to letting the team do their
                                    job. I base that on the fact that I've been successful in doing it
                                    so often. One reason why I've been successful is that my work has
                                    been good ... and it is usually obvious to my management that I
                                    value the work more than I do the job, so that the usual threat
                                    avenues just don't work on me.

                                    Most people, again, aren't that crazy, so they are more likely to
                                    drop into survival mode.

                                    I think that's tragic, and I cannot recommend it, though I can
                                    understand it.

                                    Ron Jeffries
                                    www.XProgramming.com
                                    www.xprogramming.com/blog
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                                  • Mike Sutton
                                    I coach all my teams towards transparency. Having managers or infact anyone else attend the daily scrum as observers is (IMHO) a good thing and if a problem
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Mar 13, 2009
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                                      I coach all my teams towards transparency. Having managers or infact anyone else attend the daily scrum as observers is (IMHO) a good thing and if a problem arises as a result of doing it - address that issue (it may be that the manager tries to butt in - that indicates they need some level of coaching to understand why that is not appropriate).

                                      Enforcing the rules of Scrum makes no sense if you defend the team so much that no one has the opportunity to challenge those rules.

                                      my bit for the night.
                                      mike.sutton
                                      csm.csp.cspo.certified.certifiable.
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