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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Prius example

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  • Mark Levison
    ... Liker s book had some discussion - but it was very short and didn t satisfy. In fact I ve been disappointed with Liker s book. I would have preferred a
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 3, 2009
      On 2/3/09, Joseph Little <jhlittle@...> wrote:

      > Someone wants to read about the Prius team and how they developed that
      > car so fast...using something like "Ba" and something like Scrum.
      >
      > Where is the write-up of this case? Liker's Toyota Way??

      Liker's book had some discussion - but it was very short and didn't
      satisfy. In fact I've been disappointed with Liker's book. I would
      have preferred a book with a few big examples that were explored in
      detail. Instead Liker provides a bunch of snippets - enough for a
      taste but never complete.

      Cheers
      Mark

      Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
      Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:
      http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
      Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting:
      http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
    • Joseph Little
      Hi Mark, Thanks. After I got back to the hotel, I pulled out the Kindle and found Chapter 6 in Toyota Way. (I will read it tonight more carefully.) I want to
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 3, 2009
        Hi Mark,

        Thanks. After I got back to the hotel, I pulled out the Kindle and
        found Chapter 6 in Toyota Way. (I will read it tonight more carefully.)

        I want to remind everyone that the book (The Toyota Way) is to me
        worth the price of admission just to read Liker's quote from Cho at
        the beginning of Chapter 1. I think you can find this in Google books
        (for you cheapskates out there).

        Now, it must be that Takeuchi and Nonaka also cover this case. I know
        they do. Anyone remember where?

        Mark: I have read Womack & Jones and love their stuff. Womack puts
        out a monthly e-letter (free from lean.org) which is wonderful. I know
        Liker less well, but tend to feel that Womack and Jones get to the
        chase better.

        Thanks, Joe


        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
        >
        > On 2/3/09, Joseph Little <jhlittle@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Someone wants to read about the Prius team and how they developed that
        > > car so fast...using something like "Ba" and something like Scrum.
        > >
        > > Where is the write-up of this case? Liker's Toyota Way??
        >
        > Liker's book had some discussion - but it was very short and didn't
        > satisfy. In fact I've been disappointed with Liker's book. I would
        > have preferred a book with a few big examples that were explored in
        > detail. Instead Liker provides a bunch of snippets - enough for a
        > taste but never complete.
        >
        > Cheers
        > Mark
        >
        > Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
        > Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:
        > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
        > Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting:
        >
        http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
        >
      • Bas Vodde
        Hi Joe, There is a book out there called The Machine that Shook the World . It described the Prius development and is the source of all the info about Prius
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 4, 2009
          Hi Joe,

          There is a book out there called "The Machine that Shook the World".
          It described the Prius development and is the source of all the info
          about Prius AFAIK.

          You can find the digital version online, if you look for it. Hope that
          helps :)

          Bas

          On Feb 4, 2009, at 2:01 AM, Joseph Little wrote:

          > Hi Mark,
          >
          > Thanks. After I got back to the hotel, I pulled out the Kindle and
          > found Chapter 6 in Toyota Way. (I will read it tonight more
          > carefully.)
          >
          > I want to remind everyone that the book (The Toyota Way) is to me
          > worth the price of admission just to read Liker's quote from Cho at
          > the beginning of Chapter 1. I think you can find this in Google books
          > (for you cheapskates out there).
          >
          > Now, it must be that Takeuchi and Nonaka also cover this case. I know
          > they do. Anyone remember where?
          >
          > Mark: I have read Womack & Jones and love their stuff. Womack puts
          > out a monthly e-letter (free from lean.org) which is wonderful. I know
          > Liker less well, but tend to feel that Womack and Jones get to the
          > chase better.
          >
          > Thanks, Joe
          >
          > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Mark Levison <mark@...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > On 2/3/09, Joseph Little <jhlittle@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > Someone wants to read about the Prius team and how they
          > developed that
          > > > car so fast...using something like "Ba" and something like Scrum.
          > > >
          > > > Where is the write-up of this case? Liker's Toyota Way??
          > >
          > > Liker's book had some discussion - but it was very short and didn't
          > > satisfy. In fact I've been disappointed with Liker's book. I would
          > > have preferred a book with a few big examples that were explored in
          > > detail. Instead Liker provides a bunch of snippets - enough for a
          > > taste but never complete.
          > >
          > > Cheers
          > > Mark
          > >
          > > Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
          > > Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:
          > > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
          > > Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting:
          > >
          > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
          > >
          >
          >
          >
        • mike.dwyer1@comcast.net
          Joe Just a thought Is the prius an operationally valid example? I ask because I know of only this team who had a checkbook with no end at their disposal. From
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 4, 2009
            Joe
            Just a thought
            Is the prius an operationally valid example? I ask because I know of only this team who had a checkbook with no end at their disposal. From where I am in the trenches that is beyond comprehension. I know it adds a whole galaxy of other issues but what value is that experience to my situation

            Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T


            From: "Joseph Little"
            Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 21:13:01 -0000
            To: <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Prius example

            Hi,

            Someone wants to read about the Prius team and how they developed that
            car so fast...using something like "Ba" and something like Scrum.

            Where is the write-up of this case? Liker's Toyota Way??

            One of the Takeuchi and Nonaka books? (Maybe yes to both.)

            Thanks, Joe

          • Joseph Little
            Hi Bas, The Machine That Changed the World by Womack, Jones & Roos? I will check it. I am still positive that Takeuchi & Nonaka have written about this. I
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 4, 2009
              Hi Bas,

              The Machine That Changed the World by Womack, Jones & Roos? I will
              check it.

              I am still "positive" that Takeuchi & Nonaka have written about this.

              I am also "positive" that Liker and Takeuchi & Nonaka have "direct"
              info of the Prius (ie, more than just reading Womack & Jones).

              These are both opinions really; can't prove it just now.

              Thanks!
              Joe



              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Bas Vodde <basv@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi Joe,
              >
              > There is a book out there called "The Machine that Shook the World".
              > It described the Prius development and is the source of all the info
              > about Prius AFAIK.
              >
              > You can find the digital version online, if you look for it. Hope that
              > helps :)
              >
              > Bas
              >
              > On Feb 4, 2009, at 2:01 AM, Joseph Little wrote:
              >
              > > Hi Mark,
              > >
              > > Thanks. After I got back to the hotel, I pulled out the Kindle and
              > > found Chapter 6 in Toyota Way. (I will read it tonight more
              > > carefully.)
              > >
              > > I want to remind everyone that the book (The Toyota Way) is to me
              > > worth the price of admission just to read Liker's quote from Cho at
              > > the beginning of Chapter 1. I think you can find this in Google books
              > > (for you cheapskates out there).
              > >
              > > Now, it must be that Takeuchi and Nonaka also cover this case. I know
              > > they do. Anyone remember where?
              > >
              > > Mark: I have read Womack & Jones and love their stuff. Womack puts
              > > out a monthly e-letter (free from lean.org) which is wonderful. I know
              > > Liker less well, but tend to feel that Womack and Jones get to the
              > > chase better.
              > >
              > > Thanks, Joe
              > >
              > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Mark Levison <mark@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > On 2/3/09, Joseph Little <jhlittle@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > > Someone wants to read about the Prius team and how they
              > > developed that
              > > > > car so fast...using something like "Ba" and something like Scrum.
              > > > >
              > > > > Where is the write-up of this case? Liker's Toyota Way??
              > > >
              > > > Liker's book had some discussion - but it was very short and didn't
              > > > satisfy. In fact I've been disappointed with Liker's book. I would
              > > > have preferred a book with a few big examples that were explored in
              > > > detail. Instead Liker provides a bunch of snippets - enough for a
              > > > taste but never complete.
              > > >
              > > > Cheers
              > > > Mark
              > > >
              > > > Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
              > > > Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:
              > > > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
              > > > Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting:
              > > >
              > >
              http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Roy Morien
              The Machine that Changed the World does not talk about the Prius ... in fact, the book pre-dates the Prius by about 10 years. Maybe people are thinking about
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 4, 2009
                'The Machine that Changed the World' does not talk about the Prius ... in fact, the book pre-dates the Prius by about 10 years. Maybe people are thinking about the development of the Lexus, not the Prius. There is brief mention of a number of Toyota models in that book, but not a lot of discussion.
                 
                The Liker book (The Toyota Way) does discuss the Prius in some depth however, and the Lexus.
                 
                Another book that has many case studies on Lean product development, and Lean manufacturing, is again by Womack & Jones 'Lean Thinking'. This is an excellent and quite exciting and inspiring book in many ways. It does discuss Toyota quite a bit, but neither the Prius nor the Lexus crack a mention.
                 
                Regards,
                Roy Morien




                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                From: jhlittle@...
                Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 05:00:52 +0000
                Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Prius example


                Hi Bas,

                The Machine That Changed the World by Womack, Jones & Roos? I will
                check it.

                I am still "positive" that Takeuchi & Nonaka have written about this.

                I am also "positive" that Liker and Takeuchi & Nonaka have "direct"
                info of the Prius (ie, more than just reading Womack & Jones).

                These are both opinions really; can't prove it just now.

                Thanks!
                Joe

                --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Bas Vodde <basv@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hi Joe,
                >
                > There is a book out there called "The Machine that Shook the World".
                > It described the Prius development and is the source of all the info
                > about Prius AFAIK.
                >
                > You can find the digital version online, if you look for it. Hope that
                > helps :)
                >
                > Bas
                >
                > On Feb 4, 2009, at 2:01 AM, Joseph Little wrote:
                >
                > > Hi Mark,
                > >
                > > Thanks. After I got back to the hotel, I pulled out the Kindle and
                > > found Chapter 6 in Toyota Way. (I will read it tonight more
                > > carefully.)
                > >
                > > I want to remind everyone that the book (The Toyota Way) is to me
                > > worth the price of admission just to read Liker's quote from Cho at
                > > the beginning of Chapter 1. I think you can find this in Google books
                > > (for you cheapskates out there).
                > >
                > > Now, it must be that Takeuchi and Nonaka also cover this case. I know
                > > they do. Anyone remember where?
                > >
                > > Mark: I have read Womack & Jones and love their stuff. Womack puts
                > > out a monthly e-letter (free from lean.org) which is wonderful. I know
                > > Liker less well, but tend to feel that Womack and Jones get to the
                > > chase better.
                > >
                > > Thanks, Joe
                > >
                > > --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Mark Levison <mark@>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > On 2/3/09, Joseph Little <jhlittle@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > Someone wants to read about the Prius team and how they
                > > developed that
                > > > > car so fast...using something like "Ba" and something like Scrum.
                > > > >
                > > > > Where is the write-up of this case? Liker's Toyota Way??
                > > >
                > > > Liker's book had some discussion - but it was very short and didn't
                > > > satisfy. In fact I've been disappointed with Liker's book. I would
                > > > have preferred a book with a few big examples that were explored in
                > > > detail. Instead Liker provides a bunch of snippets - enough for a
                > > > taste but never complete.
                > > >
                > > > Cheers
                > > > Mark
                > > >
                > > > Blog: http://www.notesfro matooluser. com/
                > > > Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:
                > > > http://www.notesfro matooluser. com/2008/ 06/agilescrum- smells.html
                > > > Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting:
                > > >
                > >
                http://www.notesfro matooluser. com/2008/ 10/agile- games-for- making-retrospec tives-interestin g.html
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >




                Combine your email accounts here! Want to marry your mail?
              • Joseph Little
                Hi Mike, I don t know Mike. Perhaps you are right. Per Liker s book, they got a lot of money. And some complained it was too much. Liker says the benefits
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 4, 2009
                  Hi Mike,

                  I don't know Mike. Perhaps you are right. Per Liker's book, they got
                  a lot of money. And some complained it was too much. Liker says the
                  benefits were cheaply bought at those costs. I suppose opinions might
                  vary.

                  I could be cute and say my sister-in-law's Prius operates just fine,
                  thank you. <smile>

                  I don't read this case as the guys on the teams were pulled into being
                  bad by all that money. A lot of the money I think is normal in auto
                  design.

                  Forget about the money...
                  As I read it, that team did lots of things I don't want to learn
                  (worked too hard, made bigger promises than I want most of my teams to
                  make, etc). AND...they used the war room and the concept of "Ba" in
                  ways I'd like more of my teams to do.

                  I also take a lesson about finding or motivating the managers into
                  getting our impediments moved out of the way. And focusing on the
                  benefits much more than the costs.

                  In general, I'm ok to learn from imperfect situations. In fact, I
                  never find anything but imperfect situations. Perhaps you are having
                  better luck? <smile>

                  Thanks, Joe



                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, mike.dwyer1@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Joe
                  > Just a thought
                  > Is the prius an operationally valid example? I ask because I know
                  of only this team who had a checkbook with no end at their disposal.
                  From where I am in the trenches that is beyond comprehension. I know
                  it adds a whole galaxy of other issues but what value is that
                  experience to my situation
                  > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: "Joseph Little" <jhlittle@...>
                  >
                  > Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 21:13:01
                  > To: <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Prius example
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi,
                  >
                  > Someone wants to read about the Prius team and how they developed that
                  > car so fast...using something like "Ba" and something like Scrum.
                  >
                  > Where is the write-up of this case? Liker's Toyota Way??
                  >
                  > One of the Takeuchi and Nonaka books? (Maybe yes to both.)
                  >
                  > Thanks, Joe
                  >
                • Bas Vodde
                  Hi, Sorry, correction to my mail. The book is called The Prius that shook the world not the machine. Was too tired when typing the mail. Its written by a
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 5, 2009
                    Hi,

                    Sorry, correction to my mail.

                    The book is called "The Prius that shook the world" not the machine.
                    Was too tired when typing the mail. Its written by a journalist who
                    participated the Prius development.

                    Hope this helps and sorry for the confusion.

                    Bas

                    On Feb 4, 2009, at 5:04 PM, Bas Vodde wrote:

                    >
                    > Hi Joe,
                    >
                    > There is a book out there called "The Machine that Shook the World".
                    > It described the Prius development and is the source of all the info
                    > about Prius AFAIK.
                    >
                    > You can find the digital version online, if you look for it. Hope that
                    > helps :)
                    >
                    > Bas
                    >
                    > On Feb 4, 2009, at 2:01 AM, Joseph Little wrote:
                    >
                    >> Hi Mark,
                    >>
                    >> Thanks. After I got back to the hotel, I pulled out the Kindle and
                    >> found Chapter 6 in Toyota Way. (I will read it tonight more
                    >> carefully.)
                    >>
                    >> I want to remind everyone that the book (The Toyota Way) is to me
                    >> worth the price of admission just to read Liker's quote from Cho at
                    >> the beginning of Chapter 1. I think you can find this in Google books
                    >> (for you cheapskates out there).
                    >>
                    >> Now, it must be that Takeuchi and Nonaka also cover this case. I know
                    >> they do. Anyone remember where?
                    >>
                    >> Mark: I have read Womack & Jones and love their stuff. Womack puts
                    >> out a monthly e-letter (free from lean.org) which is wonderful. I
                    >> know
                    >> Liker less well, but tend to feel that Womack and Jones get to the
                    >> chase better.
                    >>
                    >> Thanks, Joe
                    >>
                    >> --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Mark Levison <mark@...>
                    >> wrote:
                    >>>
                    >>> On 2/3/09, Joseph Little <jhlittle@...> wrote:
                    >>>
                    >>>> Someone wants to read about the Prius team and how they
                    >> developed that
                    >>>> car so fast...using something like "Ba" and something like Scrum.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Where is the write-up of this case? Liker's Toyota Way??
                    >>>
                    >>> Liker's book had some discussion - but it was very short and didn't
                    >>> satisfy. In fact I've been disappointed with Liker's book. I would
                    >>> have preferred a book with a few big examples that were explored in
                    >>> detail. Instead Liker provides a bunch of snippets - enough for a
                    >>> taste but never complete.
                    >>>
                    >>> Cheers
                    >>> Mark
                    >>>
                    >>> Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                    >>> Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:
                    >>> http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
                    >>> Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting:
                    >>>
                    >> http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
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