Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Actual velocity and estimations

Expand Messages
  • Ivo Verus
    Happy New Year to everyone I ve very simple question. I know that this had to be discussed here earlier but unfortunatelly I cannot find it in my archieve, so
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 5, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Happy New Year to everyone
       
      I've very simple question. I know that this had to be discussed here earlier but unfortunatelly I cannot find it in my archieve, so here it is again :)
      We have estimated stories before the sprint, but one issue wasn't too much clear. After two days we received details that has increased the estimation for 3 story points.
      The story is completed within this sprint.
       
      My question is should we count for actual velocity originaly estimated story points or we should increase that number by 3 story points (all stories are completed)?
       
      What if everything was clear at beggining and we increased the estimation after two days? In this case we should take into considaration the original estimation, right?
       
      Thanks.
      Ivo Verus
    • Marko Majkic
      First of all, I wouldn t commit anything about this story until it is 100% clear to development team (100% what, not how). Simply, I would advice developers
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 5, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        First of all, I wouldn't commit anything about this story until it is
        100% clear to development team (100% what, not how). Simply, I would
        advice developers' team not to accept this story for this Sprint. If
        PO insists on this story, Sprint shouldn't start until this story is
        totally clear. This is the right way.

        You didn't do it right and you're lucky to have successful Sprint.
        Anyway, I congratulate your developers for this messy situation
        solved, satisfying PO.

        What would happen if you had one user story more worth 3 points -
        considering your team's velocity this story should take place in this
        Sprint? Your Sprint would fail in this situation.

        I agree completely with opinion that Scrum Master shouldn't protect
        developer's team from the PO, but should protect team from this kind
        of situation. That's our job and we're paid for that.

        Considering your question, you can count any value you want (x or
        x+3), since it only shows team's velocity and is purely empiric. By my
        opinion, team velocity is x+3, since this is better estimation,
        despite issues with aforementioned story.

        Please, take my opinion as constructive critic with intention to
        improve your Scrum habits.

        On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Ivo Verus <ivo.verus@...> wrote:
        > Happy New Year to everyone
        >
        > I've very simple question. I know that this had to be discussed here earlier
        > but unfortunatelly I cannot find it in my archieve, so here it is again :)
        > We have estimated stories before the sprint, but one issue wasn't too much
        > clear. After two days we received details that has increased the estimation
        > for 3 story points.
        > The story is completed within this sprint.
        >
        > My question is should we count for actual velocity originaly estimated story
        > points or we should increase that number by 3 story points (all stories are
        > completed)?
        >
        > What if everything was clear at beggining and we increased the estimation
        > after two days? In this case we should take into considaration the original
        > estimation, right?
        >
        > Thanks.
        > Ivo Verus
        >
        >
      • Cenk Çivici
        Hi, What was the main reason behind the estimate change? Was the story too big? Was there a dev task that was missed? Thanks Cenk
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 5, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi,

          What was the main reason behind the estimate change? Was the story too
          big? Was there a dev task that was missed?

          Thanks
          Cenk

          On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Ivo Verus <ivo.verus@...> wrote:
          > Happy New Year to everyone
          >
          > I've very simple question. I know that this had to be discussed here earlier
          > but unfortunatelly I cannot find it in my archieve, so here it is again :)
          > We have estimated stories before the sprint, but one issue wasn't too much
          > clear. After two days we received details that has increased the estimation
          > for 3 story points.
          > The story is completed within this sprint.
          >
          > My question is should we count for actual velocity originaly estimated story
          > points or we should increase that number by 3 story points (all stories are
          > completed)?
          >
          > What if everything was clear at beggining and we increased the estimation
          > after two days? In this case we should take into considaration the original
          > estimation, right?
          >
          > Thanks.
          > Ivo Verus
          >
          >
        • Lance Walton
          Hi. The measurement of velocity is not an end but a means. If you figure out what you want to use the velocity measurement for, then the answer will probably
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 5, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi.

            The measurement of velocity is not an end but a means. If you figure out what you want to
            use the velocity measurement for, then the answer will probably become apparent.

            What do you want to use your velocity measurements for?

            Regards,

            Lance

            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Ivo Verus" <ivo.verus@...> wrote:
            >
            > Happy New Year to everyone
            >
            > I've very simple question. I know that this had to be discussed here earlier
            > but unfortunatelly I cannot find it in my archieve, so here it is again :)
            > We have estimated stories before the sprint, but one issue wasn't too much
            > clear. After two days we received details that has increased the estimation
            > for 3 story points.
            > The story is completed within this sprint.
            >
            > My question is should we count for actual velocity originaly estimated story
            > points or we should increase that number by 3 story points (all stories are
            > completed)?
            >
            > What if everything was clear at beggining and we increased the estimation
            > after two days? In this case we should take into considaration the original
            > estimation, right?
            >
            > Thanks.
            > Ivo Verus
            >
          • Ivo Verus
            Thanks for the reply. Velocity will be used for calculating the actual focus factor for this sprint. Regards, Ivo
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 5, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Thanks for the reply.
               
              Velocity will be used for calculating the actual focus factor for this sprint.
               
              Regards,
              Ivo

              On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 10:41 PM, Lance Walton <LanceWalton@...> wrote:

              Hi.

              The measurement of velocity is not an end but a means. If you figure out what you want to
              use the velocity measurement for, then the answer will probably become apparent.

              What do you want to use your velocity measurements for?

              Regards,

              Lance



              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Ivo Verus" <ivo.verus@...> wrote:
              >
              > Happy New Year to everyone
              >
              > I've very simple question. I know that this had to be discussed here earlier
              > but unfortunatelly I cannot find it in my archieve, so here it is again :)
              > We have estimated stories before the sprint, but one issue wasn't too much
              > clear. After two days we received details that has increased the estimation
              > for 3 story points.
              > The story is completed within this sprint.
              >
              > My question is should we count for actual velocity originaly estimated story
              > points or we should increase that number by 3 story points (all stories are
              > completed)?
              >
              > What if everything was clear at beggining and we increased the estimation
              > after two days? In this case we should take into considaration the original
              > estimation, right?
              >
              > Thanks.
              > Ivo Verus
              >


            • Ivo Verus
              Thanks for your comments Marko. Anyway, sometimes you simply cannot have all requirements clear before sprint start. By the book I shouldn t accept the start
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 5, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Thanks for your comments Marko.
                 
                Anyway, sometimes you simply cannot have all requirements clear before sprint start.
                By the book I shouldn't accept the start and the sprint will late a couple of days more.
                 
                If we take let's say two months period for analysis, I think that with going by the book (postone the sprint start) we would implement let's say 80 story points, but if we start like my example said and be flexible and constructive enough we would implement more than 80 story points, maybe 90.
                 
                My point is that sometimes may be better to start with the sprint although you don't have everything clear. There is a risk we take in this situation, but depending on how much details are not cleared up, this approach could give us more results compared with postponing the start.
                 
                Any comments are welcomed. Let's leave the teorethical side and speak about practicle expiriences.
                Best regards,
                Ivo Verus
                On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 6:30 PM, Marko Majkic <majkic@...> wrote:

                First of all, I wouldn't commit anything about this story until it is
                100% clear to development team (100% what, not how). Simply, I would
                advice developers' team not to accept this story for this Sprint. If
                PO insists on this story, Sprint shouldn't start until this story is
                totally clear. This is the right way.

                You didn't do it right and you're lucky to have successful Sprint.
                Anyway, I congratulate your developers for this messy situation
                solved, satisfying PO.

                What would happen if you had one user story more worth 3 points -
                considering your team's velocity this story should take place in this
                Sprint? Your Sprint would fail in this situation.

                I agree completely with opinion that Scrum Master shouldn't protect
                developer's team from the PO, but should protect team from this kind
                of situation. That's our job and we're paid for that.

                Considering your question, you can count any value you want (x or
                x+3), since it only shows team's velocity and is purely empiric. By my
                opinion, team velocity is x+3, since this is better estimation,
                despite issues with aforementioned story.

                Please, take my opinion as constructive critic with intention to
                improve your Scrum habits.



                On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Ivo Verus <ivo.verus@...> wrote:
                > Happy New Year to everyone
                >
                > I've very simple question. I know that this had to be discussed here earlier
                > but unfortunatelly I cannot find it in my archieve, so here it is again :)
                > We have estimated stories before the sprint, but one issue wasn't too much
                > clear. After two days we received details that has increased the estimation
                > for 3 story points.
                > The story is completed within this sprint.
                >
                > My question is should we count for actual velocity originaly estimated story
                > points or we should increase that number by 3 story points (all stories are
                > completed)?
                >
                > What if everything was clear at beggining and we increased the estimation
                > after two days? In this case we should take into considaration the original
                > estimation, right?
                >
                > Thanks.
                > Ivo Verus
                >
                >


              • Marko Majkic
                ... Actually, you need to have clear What and Why 100% clear. Of course How is not clear at start and that s developers job. To figure out How during
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 5, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 12:14 AM, Ivo Verus <ivo.verus@...> wrote:
                  > Thanks for your comments Marko.
                  >
                  > Anyway, sometimes you simply cannot have all requirements clear before
                  > sprint start.
                  Actually, you need to have clear "What" and "Why" 100% clear. Of
                  course "How" is not clear at start and that's developers' job. To
                  figure out "How" during the sprint. So, you need to have user stories
                  100% clear to the developers. I had some developers in Scrum team who
                  didn't understand concept of user stories. They usually came from
                  waterfall/detailed specification projects. For those developers user
                  story in a few sentences was total mess.

                  > By the book I shouldn't accept the start and the sprint will late a couple
                  > of days more.
                  Yes, exactly. But doing this, you'll make PO to do his/her job. And
                  after first Sprint late, I'm sure that another won't be late.
                  >
                  > If we take let's say two months period for analysis, I think that with going
                  > by the book (postone the sprint start) we would implement let's say 80 story
                  > points, but if we start like my example said and be flexible and
                  > constructive enough we would implement more than 80 story points, maybe 90.
                  You don't need to have complete product backlog clear at start. You
                  need to have the first Sprint backlog clear (user stories for the
                  first Sprint). Than you will have enough time to take care of complete
                  product backlog, maybe to ask developers to take some time to make
                  comments on remaining user stories (for next Sprints).
                  >
                  > My point is that sometimes may be better to start with the sprint although
                  > you don't have everything clear. There is a risk we take in this situation,
                  > but depending on how much details are not cleared up, this approach could
                  > give us more results compared with postponing the start.
                  I agree, but don't commit to unclear user stories. Don't promise
                  anything about that. By the book, you don't say "We won't do it for
                  sure", but "I cannot commit to that user story".

                  >
                  > Any comments are welcomed. Let's leave the teorethical side and speak about
                  > practicle expiriences.
                  It is pretty hard to say "No.", but PO willrespect you more if you
                  couldkeep your promises (commitments). And your team even more.

                  > Best regards,
                  > Ivo Verus
                  > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 6:30 PM, Marko Majkic <majkic@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> First of all, I wouldn't commit anything about this story until it is
                  >> 100% clear to development team (100% what, not how). Simply, I would
                  >> advice developers' team not to accept this story for this Sprint. If
                  >> PO insists on this story, Sprint shouldn't start until this story is
                  >> totally clear. This is the right way.
                  >>
                  >> You didn't do it right and you're lucky to have successful Sprint.
                  >> Anyway, I congratulate your developers for this messy situation
                  >> solved, satisfying PO.
                  >>
                  >> What would happen if you had one user story more worth 3 points -
                  >> considering your team's velocity this story should take place in this
                  >> Sprint? Your Sprint would fail in this situation.
                  >>
                  >> I agree completely with opinion that Scrum Master shouldn't protect
                  >> developer's team from the PO, but should protect team from this kind
                  >> of situation. That's our job and we're paid for that.
                  >>
                  >> Considering your question, you can count any value you want (x or
                  >> x+3), since it only shows team's velocity and is purely empiric. By my
                  >> opinion, team velocity is x+3, since this is better estimation,
                  >> despite issues with aforementioned story.
                  >>
                  >> Please, take my opinion as constructive critic with intention to
                  >> improve your Scrum habits.
                  >>
                  >> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Ivo Verus <ivo.verus@...> wrote:
                  >> > Happy New Year to everyone
                  >> >
                  >> > I've very simple question. I know that this had to be discussed here
                  >> > earlier
                  >> > but unfortunatelly I cannot find it in my archieve, so here it is again
                  >> > :)
                  >> > We have estimated stories before the sprint, but one issue wasn't too
                  >> > much
                  >> > clear. After two days we received details that has increased the
                  >> > estimation
                  >> > for 3 story points.
                  >> > The story is completed within this sprint.
                  >> >
                  >> > My question is should we count for actual velocity originaly estimated
                  >> > story
                  >> > points or we should increase that number by 3 story points (all stories
                  >> > are
                  >> > completed)?
                  >> >
                  >> > What if everything was clear at beggining and we increased the
                  >> > estimation
                  >> > after two days? In this case we should take into considaration the
                  >> > original
                  >> > estimation, right?
                  >> >
                  >> > Thanks.
                  >> > Ivo Verus
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >
                  >
                • Michael Yip
                  Hi Ivo, Happy New Year to you and your family. The short answer to your question is I do not know because I do not have enough information to advise. What I
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 5, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Ivo,

                    Happy New Year to you and your family. The short answer to your question is I do not know because I do not have enough information to advise. What I can say are the following.

                    As you probably know, there are many reasons why the estimates can change or increase. Even though a story may be "clear" initially, the question I would ask is was the Product Owner brought in to help make sure the story was clear? The PO will need to make a call whether the additional work is considered as "nice to have" or "required". The PO may decide whether to remove stories of less importance from the committed Sprint backlog or break the story in question to 2 or more and prioritize them accordingly for the team.

                    Additional question is were the SMEs (Subject Matter Experts) related to that story there to help with the estimation? Did the team use an equivalent complexity story in the past with acceptable confidence interval as a reference point for the estimation? Did the Scrum Master do a good job facilitating during the estimation or was the Scrum Master "over ruled" by the SMEs for instance?

                    Any additional work that came up after the story was committed to a Sprint may need to be put together as another story and inserted into the backlog. Granted that there may be variations for Stories for a Sprint and a Sprint may be able to absorb additional story/complexity points, what you need to watch out for is the burn out factor where the team is asked to do more than they are capable within their limits because of poor/chaotic estimation. As a result, the team ends up burying the additional hours by working overtime to complete the Sprint.

                    Regards,
                    Michael



                    --- On Mon, 1/5/09, Ivo Verus <ivo.verus@...> wrote:

                    From: Ivo Verus <ivo.verus@...>
                    Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Actual velocity and estimations
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 9:16 AM

                    Happy New Year to everyone
                     
                    I've very simple question. I know that this had to be discussed here earlier but unfortunatelly I cannot find it in my archieve, so here it is again :)
                    We have estimated stories before the sprint, but one issue wasn't too much clear. After two days we received details that has increased the estimation for 3 story points.
                    The story is completed within this sprint.
                     
                    My question is should we count for actual velocity originaly estimated story points or we should increase that number by 3 story points (all stories are completed)?
                     
                    What if everything was clear at beggining and we increased the estimation after two days? In this case we should take into considaration the original estimation, right?
                     
                    Thanks.
                    Ivo Verus
                  • Lance Walton
                    ... OK. You are going to derive another measure by combining two existing measures. But what are you going to do with that new measure? (Forgive my Socratic
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 6, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      :-)

                      OK. You are going to derive another measure by combining two existing measures. But
                      what are you going to do with that new measure? (Forgive my Socratic approach; I just
                      don't want to bias things by making suggestions :-)

                      Regards,

                      Lance


                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Ivo Verus" <ivo.verus@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Thanks for the reply.
                      >
                      > Velocity will be used for calculating the actual focus factor for this
                      > sprint.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Ivo
                      >
                      > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 10:41 PM, Lance Walton <LanceWalton@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Hi.
                      > >
                      > > The measurement of velocity is not an end but a means. If you figure out
                      > > what you want to
                      > > use the velocity measurement for, then the answer will probably become
                      > > apparent.
                      > >
                      > > What do you want to use your velocity measurements for?
                      > >
                      > > Regards,
                      > >
                      > > Lance
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In
                      scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com<scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com>,
                      > > "Ivo Verus" <ivo.verus@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Happy New Year to everyone
                      > > >
                      > > > I've very simple question. I know that this had to be discussed here
                      > > earlier
                      > > > but unfortunatelly I cannot find it in my archieve, so here it is again
                      > > :)
                      > > > We have estimated stories before the sprint, but one issue wasn't too
                      > > much
                      > > > clear. After two days we received details that has increased the
                      > > estimation
                      > > > for 3 story points.
                      > > > The story is completed within this sprint.
                      > > >
                      > > > My question is should we count for actual velocity originaly estimated
                      > > story
                      > > > points or we should increase that number by 3 story points (all stories
                      > > are
                      > > > completed)?
                      > > >
                      > > > What if everything was clear at beggining and we increased the estimation
                      > > > after two days? In this case we should take into considaration the
                      > > original
                      > > > estimation, right?
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks.
                      > > > Ivo Verus
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.