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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Backlog Grooming and Sprint Review on the same day?

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  • Simon Kirk
    Hi Mike. Comments within :) ... I d say that we could probably get conference call time with the PO fairly regularly, but it s unlikely we could get him and
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 22, 2008
      Hi Mike.

      Comments within :)

      On 21 Nov 2008, at 22:20, Mike Sutton wrote:

      > is the only contact you can have the same as the face time or can you
      > conference call anytime and as much as you need?
      >
      > if you only have contact when the customer is on site then I would try
      > and get the grooming done on the same days as both the review and
      > planning (I assume are 2 different days??).

      I'd say that we could probably get conference call time with the PO
      fairly regularly, but it's unlikely we could get him and the relevant
      stake holders for long enough at a time to take the place of the face
      to face communication. This is why I was mooting grooming and review
      on the same day, the face time is invaluable.

      I'm not sure we could achieve review, grooming AND planning all on the
      same day. I can see that the grooming part would effectively be "more
      of the same" as what happens in Sprint Planning stage 1, so that's
      good, but I think a major stumbling block for the team in the past has
      been the lack of proper Sprint reviews. I worry that to try and cram
      it all into the one day would be a negative message on the importance
      of the Sprint Review, just when the PO has finally recognised their
      importance (thank you Martine Devos :)


      > You would need to be quite disciplined with the sprint review though
      > and make sure it is well timeboxed. I usually don't like the whole
      > thing to last beyond 2 hours (preparation and demo/discussion).
      >
      > Given that the recommendation for backlog grooming is 10% of the
      > sprint (1 day in a 10 day/2 week sprint). That's about 4 hours - which
      > would be mega intense, whichever way you dice it.
      >
      > My suggestion would be that you do spread it over the 2 days if you
      > can. Addressing the highest bit of your backlog on the first day and
      > then whatever else on the second day.

      This was kind of my thinking, too. By having a Sprint Review and
      Grooming day combined, followed by a full Sprint Planning day, we'd
      effectively be doing two sessions of grooming, given Sprint Planning 1
      can often contain a fair amount of Grooming, too (normally far too
      much, if you're not doing the other 10% Grooming meeting, which of
      course leads to dysfunction), we'd get enough Backlog well-formed that
      we would be able to enter Sprints more confidently.


      > Another idea might be to get the team to do its tasking before the
      > sprint planning (at this point, you probably know what stories are in
      > the next sprint pretty precise for this not to be waste). Then you can
      > have a minimal sprint planning and then devote most of that time to
      > backlog grooming.

      I'd love to be able to do this, but the inflow of work isn't smooth
      enough yet. We're still at the point where we're really only one
      sprint ahead of the game in terms of well-formed backlog, if that.
      Couple that to the fact that what we think we're about to work on the
      next sprint can often change (which is the point of Agile after all,
      but I'd rather it wasn't quite so dramatically quite so often) and it
      means doing this work would lead to waste.

      However, in the long run I hope that it would be an option open to us.
      I'm optimistic, as ever :)


      > BTW - Who actually writes the stories?

      After much badgering originally, the PO is now pretty good about
      writing most of the stories, or at least re-interpreting the
      requirements of his business into stories for us. We still write some,
      but they're often the more non-functional-requirement, technically-
      oriented things.

      Cheers for your thoughts,
      Simon

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