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Re: [scrumdevelopment] PO is also the Architect

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  • Marcelo Augusto
    Hi all, I also agree that architectural decision makers are not suposed to be POs. A team member could really be a good idea, specially if the product itself
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 31 5:48 AM
      Hi all,

      I also agree that architectural decision makers are not suposed to be
      POs. A team member could really be a good idea, specially if the
      product itself depends on frequent arch decisions. By the way, is
      there the concept of consultant in Scrum, a guy who is not part of the
      team, but is sometimes asked for opinions and guidelines? This a
      question I have.

      My point is that if the product´s target consumer is technical people
      (e.g. the product is a framework, an API) maybe an architect is the
      best person to be the PO.

      Just a remainder.

      []s

      On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 7:09 AM, Xavier Quesada Allue <xavier@...> wrote:
      > I absolutely recommend you go with option 2. Architecture is not the
      > responsibility of the Product Owner! It is the responsibility of the
      > team. Technical people, especially the so-called "Architects", make
      > (in my experience) very lousy Product Owners. They are way too
      > technical and too involved with implementation details to specify
      > requirements as business goals. Try to build a real Product Owner from
      > your customers or your analysts. Put this guy in the team where he
      > belongs (even if he can only work part-time).
      >
      > Regards,
      > Xavier
      >
      > On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 8:57 AM, martinhillbrand
      > <martin.hillbrand@...> wrote:
      >> Hi,
      >> I would need some advice on a situation at our company. We adapted
      >> Scrum one year ago and it was decided that the former Project
      >> Lead/Chief Architect became the Product Owner. Because of his
      >> experience and the sum of legacy code we have in the product we often
      >> need him for small design/architectural decisions. Moreover he has 2
      >> Home office days per week and carries a lot of other duties within the
      >> organization so that he has less time for the team in the 3 days he is
      >> on side. You have to know that we have a product that supports several
      >> features and different protocols and its hard to keep the overview
      >> about everything, if you weren't there at the beginning.
      >>
      >> So in the last Retrospective it came up, that he has too less time for
      >> the team and we would feel much better if he would be more available.
      >> Most of the decisions made, were done when you saw him and in the
      >> hallway when you met him. We had several suggestions in the team how
      >> we might handle this case in the future and I would be happy if you
      >> can give me any feedback on this topic.
      >>
      >> Suggestions we had:
      >> - A second PO, with responsibility on usability and the former one
      >> with responsibility on architectural issues.
      >> - The former PO becomes a team member of the dev team and we build up
      >> a new PO.
      >> - The PO has to give up any other responsibilities and home office
      >> days ... not very likely that this might happen.
      >>
      >> thanks for your advice
      >> Martin
      >>
      >>
      >



      --
      Marcelo Augusto Costa
      Projetista/Designer
      Phone: (19) 2102 4500
      E-mail/MSN: maugusto@...

      Ci&T Software
      Visite nosso site: http://www.cit.com.br/
      Visit our site: http://www.ciandt.com
      ---

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    • martinhillbrand
      Thanks for all those ideas. I will bring them into the team and we will see how we can solve this issue. greetings Martin ... within the ... he is ... several
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 3, 2008
        Thanks for all those ideas. I will bring them into the team and we
        will see how we can solve this issue.

        greetings
        Martin

        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Marcelo Augusto"
        <maugusto@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi all,
        >
        > I also agree that architectural decision makers are not suposed to be
        > POs. A team member could really be a good idea, specially if the
        > product itself depends on frequent arch decisions. By the way, is
        > there the concept of consultant in Scrum, a guy who is not part of the
        > team, but is sometimes asked for opinions and guidelines? This a
        > question I have.
        >
        > My point is that if the product�s target consumer is technical people
        > (e.g. the product is a framework, an API) maybe an architect is the
        > best person to be the PO.
        >
        > Just a remainder.
        >
        > []s
        >
        > On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 7:09 AM, Xavier Quesada Allue <xavier@...>
        wrote:
        > > I absolutely recommend you go with option 2. Architecture is not the
        > > responsibility of the Product Owner! It is the responsibility of the
        > > team. Technical people, especially the so-called "Architects", make
        > > (in my experience) very lousy Product Owners. They are way too
        > > technical and too involved with implementation details to specify
        > > requirements as business goals. Try to build a real Product Owner from
        > > your customers or your analysts. Put this guy in the team where he
        > > belongs (even if he can only work part-time).
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > > Xavier
        > >
        > > On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 8:57 AM, martinhillbrand
        > > <martin.hillbrand@...> wrote:
        > >> Hi,
        > >> I would need some advice on a situation at our company. We adapted
        > >> Scrum one year ago and it was decided that the former Project
        > >> Lead/Chief Architect became the Product Owner. Because of his
        > >> experience and the sum of legacy code we have in the product we often
        > >> need him for small design/architectural decisions. Moreover he has 2
        > >> Home office days per week and carries a lot of other duties
        within the
        > >> organization so that he has less time for the team in the 3 days
        he is
        > >> on side. You have to know that we have a product that supports
        several
        > >> features and different protocols and its hard to keep the overview
        > >> about everything, if you weren't there at the beginning.
        > >>
        > >> So in the last Retrospective it came up, that he has too less
        time for
        > >> the team and we would feel much better if he would be more available.
        > >> Most of the decisions made, were done when you saw him and in the
        > >> hallway when you met him. We had several suggestions in the team how
        > >> we might handle this case in the future and I would be happy if you
        > >> can give me any feedback on this topic.
        > >>
        > >> Suggestions we had:
        > >> - A second PO, with responsibility on usability and the former one
        > >> with responsibility on architectural issues.
        > >> - The former PO becomes a team member of the dev team and we build up
        > >> a new PO.
        > >> - The PO has to give up any other responsibilities and home office
        > >> days ... not very likely that this might happen.
        > >>
        > >> thanks for your advice
        > >> Martin
        > >>
        > >>
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > Marcelo Augusto Costa
        > Projetista/Designer
        > Phone: (19) 2102 4500
        > E-mail/MSN: maugusto@...
        >
        > Ci&T Software
        > Visite nosso site: http://www.cit.com.br/
        > Visit our site: http://www.ciandt.com
        > ---
        >
        > Esta mensagem, incluindo seus anexos, cont�m informa��es legais
        > privilegiadas e/ou confidenciais. Caso tenha recebido esta mensagem
        > por engano, por favor informe o remetente e apague-a do seu
        > computador.
        >
        > The information contained in this email message, including any
        > attachment, is privileged and/or confidential. If you have received
        > this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your
        > system.
        >
      • Mark Levison
        On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 2:57 AM, martinhillbrand ... Martin to provide a better answer we need some background information. What
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 3, 2008
          On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 2:57 AM, martinhillbrand <martin.hillbrand@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi,
          > I would need some advice on a situation at our company. We adapted
          > Scrum one year ago and it was decided that the former Project
          > Lead/Chief Architect became the Product Owner. Because of his
          > experience and the sum of legacy code we have in the product we often
          > need him for small design/architectural decisions. Moreover he has 2
          > Home office days per week and carries a lot of other duties within the
          > organization so that he has less time for the team in the 3 days he is
          > on side. You have to know that we have a product that supports several
          > features and different protocols and its hard to keep the overview
          > about everything, if you weren't there at the beginning.
          >
          > So in the last Retrospective it came up, that he has too less time for
          > the team and we would feel much better if he would be more available.
          > Most of the decisions made, were done when you saw him and in the
          > hallway when you met him. We had several suggestions in the team how
          > we might handle this case in the future and I would be happy if you
          > can give me any feedback on this topic.
          >
          > Suggestions we had:
          > - A second PO, with responsibility on usability and the former one
          > with responsibility on architectural issues.
          > - The former PO becomes a team member of the dev team and we build up
          > a new PO.
          > - The PO has to give up any other responsibilities and home office
          > days ... not very likely that this might happen.
          >
          > thanks for your advice
          > Martin
          >

          Martin to provide a better answer we need some background information. What type of product is this? Who are the end users?

          The key point will be that you need a product owner that is representative of the end-users. In addition your team needs access to the PO on a regular basis. As a rule if I don't see team members talking to the PO daily I smell a problem.

          Cheers
          Mark Levison

          Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
          Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:  http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
          Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
        • martinhillbrand
          Hi Mark, I see it similar to you. The problem, I guess, is not the PO is the one person most experienced in the product, but that he has 2 days of Homeoffice
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 3, 2008
            Hi Mark,
            I see it similar to you. The problem, I guess, is not the PO is the
            one person most experienced in the product, but that he has 2 days of
            Homeoffice and several organizational tasks to do. All those keep him
            away from really having time for the developers.


            As Background: Our team develops on a testing tool which supports
            several APIs and technologies. Because of that we need a PO that
            understands those technical facts. The end users for the product would
            be any developer of the technologies we support (like Web, FTP, ...).

            cheers
            Martin

            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Levison" <mark@...> wrote:
            >
            > On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 2:57 AM, martinhillbrand <martin.hillbrand@...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi,
            > > I would need some advice on a situation at our company. We adapted
            > > Scrum one year ago and it was decided that the former Project
            > > Lead/Chief Architect became the Product Owner. Because of his
            > > experience and the sum of legacy code we have in the product we often
            > > need him for small design/architectural decisions. Moreover he has 2
            > > Home office days per week and carries a lot of other duties within the
            > > organization so that he has less time for the team in the 3 days he is
            > > on side. You have to know that we have a product that supports several
            > > features and different protocols and its hard to keep the overview
            > > about everything, if you weren't there at the beginning.
            > >
            > > So in the last Retrospective it came up, that he has too less time for
            > > the team and we would feel much better if he would be more available.
            > > Most of the decisions made, were done when you saw him and in the
            > > hallway when you met him. We had several suggestions in the team how
            > > we might handle this case in the future and I would be happy if you
            > > can give me any feedback on this topic.
            > >
            > > Suggestions we had:
            > > - A second PO, with responsibility on usability and the former one
            > > with responsibility on architectural issues.
            > > - The former PO becomes a team member of the dev team and we build up
            > > a new PO.
            > > - The PO has to give up any other responsibilities and home office
            > > days ... not very likely that this might happen.
            > >
            > > thanks for your advice
            > > Martin
            > >
            >
            > Martin to provide a better answer we need some background
            information. What
            > type of product is this? Who are the end users?
            >
            > The key point will be that you need a product owner that is
            representative
            > of the end-users. In addition your team needs access to the PO on a
            regular
            > basis. As a rule if I don't see team members talking to the PO daily
            I smell
            > a problem.
            >
            > Cheers
            > Mark Levison
            >
            > Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
            > Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:
            > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
            > Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting:
            >
            http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
            >
          • Mark Levison
            Martin - one more random thought. The role of PO has an inherent conflict with that of Architect/Team Members. The PO should always be driving to deliver more
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 3, 2008
              Martin - one more random thought. The role of PO has an inherent conflict with that of Architect/Team Members. The PO should always be driving to deliver more business value and the team should ensure that quality is kept high. If these roles live inside a single human being something will give.

              Cheers
              Mark

              On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 10:36 AM, martinhillbrand <martin.hillbrand@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Mark,
              > I see it similar to you. The problem, I guess, is not the PO is the
              > one person most experienced in the product, but that he has 2 days of
              > Homeoffice and several organizational tasks to do. All those keep him
              > away from really having time for the developers.
              >
              > As Background: Our team develops on a testing tool which supports
              > several APIs and technologies. Because of that we need a PO that
              > understands those technical facts. The end users for the product would
              > be any developer of the technologies we support (like Web, FTP, ...).
              >
              > cheers
              > Martin
              >
              > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Levison" <mark@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 2:57 AM, martinhillbrand <martin.hillbrand@...>
              >
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi,
              > > > I would need some advice on a situation at our company. We adapted
              > > > Scrum one year ago and it was decided that the former Project
              > > > Lead/Chief Architect became the Product Owner. Because of his
              > > > experience and the sum of legacy code we have in the product we often
              > > > need him for small design/architectural decisions. Moreover he has 2
              > > > Home office days per week and carries a lot of other duties within the
              > > > organization so that he has less time for the team in the 3 days he is
              > > > on side. You have to know that we have a product that supports several
              > > > features and different protocols and its hard to keep the overview
              > > > about everything, if you weren't there at the beginning.
              > > >
              > > > So in the last Retrospective it came up, that he has too less time for
              > > > the team and we would feel much better if he would be more available.
              > > > Most of the decisions made, were done when you saw him and in the
              > > > hallway when you met him. We had several suggestions in the team how
              > > > we might handle this case in the future and I would be happy if you
              > > > can give me any feedback on this topic.
              > > >
              > > > Suggestions we had:
              > > > - A second PO, with responsibility on usability and the former one
              > > > with responsibility on architectural issues.
              > > > - The former PO becomes a team member of the dev team and we build up
              > > > a new PO.
              > > > - The PO has to give up any other responsibilities and home office
              > > > days ... not very likely that this might happen.
              > > >
              > > > thanks for your advice
              > > > Martin
              > > >
              > >
              > > Martin to provide a better answer we need some background
              > information. What
              > > type of product is this? Who are the end users?
              > >
              > > The key point will be that you need a product owner that is
              > representative
              > > of the end-users. In addition your team needs access to the PO on a
              > regular
              > > basis. As a rule if I don't see team members talking to the PO daily
              > I smell
              > > a problem.
              > >
              > > Cheers
              > > Mark Levison
              > >
              > > Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
              > > Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:
              > > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
              > > Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting:
              > >
              > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
              > >
              >
              >


              --
              Cheers
              Mark Levison
              Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
              Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:  http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
              Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
            • martinhillbrand
              That s a good thought. I will keep this in mind, when we have our Teambuilding at the start of the next Release. thx a lot Martin ... conflict ... is kept ...
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 3, 2008
                That's a good thought. I will keep this in mind, when we have our
                Teambuilding at the start of the next Release.

                thx a lot
                Martin

                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Levison" <mark@...> wrote:
                >
                > Martin - one more random thought. The role of PO has an inherent
                conflict
                > with that of Architect/Team Members. The PO should always be driving to
                > deliver more business value and the team should ensure that quality
                is kept
                > high. If these roles live inside a single human being something will
                give.
                >
                > Cheers
                > Mark
                >
                > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 10:36 AM, martinhillbrand <martin.hillbrand@...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Mark,
                > > I see it similar to you. The problem, I guess, is not the PO is the
                > > one person most experienced in the product, but that he has 2 days of
                > > Homeoffice and several organizational tasks to do. All those keep him
                > > away from really having time for the developers.
                > >
                > > As Background: Our team develops on a testing tool which supports
                > > several APIs and technologies. Because of that we need a PO that
                > > understands those technical facts. The end users for the product would
                > > be any developer of the technologies we support (like Web, FTP, ...).
                > >
                > > cheers
                > > Martin
                > >
                > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Levison" <mark@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 2:57 AM, martinhillbrand <martin.hillbrand@>
                > >
                > > > wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hi,
                > > > > I would need some advice on a situation at our company. We adapted
                > > > > Scrum one year ago and it was decided that the former Project
                > > > > Lead/Chief Architect became the Product Owner. Because of his
                > > > > experience and the sum of legacy code we have in the product
                we often
                > > > > need him for small design/architectural decisions. Moreover he
                has 2
                > > > > Home office days per week and carries a lot of other duties
                within the
                > > > > organization so that he has less time for the team in the 3
                days he is
                > > > > on side. You have to know that we have a product that supports
                several
                > > > > features and different protocols and its hard to keep the overview
                > > > > about everything, if you weren't there at the beginning.
                > > > >
                > > > > So in the last Retrospective it came up, that he has too less
                time for
                > > > > the team and we would feel much better if he would be more
                available.
                > > > > Most of the decisions made, were done when you saw him and in the
                > > > > hallway when you met him. We had several suggestions in the
                team how
                > > > > we might handle this case in the future and I would be happy
                if you
                > > > > can give me any feedback on this topic.
                > > > >
                > > > > Suggestions we had:
                > > > > - A second PO, with responsibility on usability and the former one
                > > > > with responsibility on architectural issues.
                > > > > - The former PO becomes a team member of the dev team and we
                build up
                > > > > a new PO.
                > > > > - The PO has to give up any other responsibilities and home office
                > > > > days ... not very likely that this might happen.
                > > > >
                > > > > thanks for your advice
                > > > > Martin
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > > Martin to provide a better answer we need some background
                > > information. What
                > > > type of product is this? Who are the end users?
                > > >
                > > > The key point will be that you need a product owner that is
                > > representative
                > > > of the end-users. In addition your team needs access to the PO on a
                > > regular
                > > > basis. As a rule if I don't see team members talking to the PO daily
                > > I smell
                > > > a problem.
                > > >
                > > > Cheers
                > > > Mark Levison
                > > >
                > > > Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                > > > Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:
                > > > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
                > > > Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting:
                > > >
                > >
                >
                http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > --
                > Cheers
                > Mark Levison
                > Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                > Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:
                > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
                > Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting:
                >
                http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
                >
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