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RE: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum is just for UI based applications ?

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  • Paul Hudson
    Here s an example of one without a UI. I drive a Saab. Historically, Saabs have had quite sophisticated engine management systems. These don t have a UI, but I
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 26, 2008
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      Here’s an example of one without a UI.

       

      I drive a Saab. Historically, Saabs have had quite sophisticated engine management systems. These don’t have a UI, but I think the development could well have been approached incrementally, even though the releases to actual drivers might not have been.

       

      As a driver, I want my ECU to keep the engine within safe parameters for the engine.

      As a driver, I want my ECU to automatically deal with different fuel grades.

      As a driver, I want my ECU to automatically adjust to my driving style (performance vs. economy)

      As a Saab product manager, I want the ECU to automatically cope with different components (turbos, auto/manual transmission, engine capacity)….

      As a Saab product manager, I want the ECU to get the most performance out of any configuration (or “to offer performance beyond our competition” perhaps)

      As a driver, I want my ECU to revert to “limp home” mode if faults are detected in engine or sensors so no further damage is done.

      As a Saab product manager, I want the software to fit in 128K of memory…

       

      Etc, etc.

       

      Yes, SCRUM focuses on business value, but that value doesn’t have to be realised through a human-computer interface.

       

      Paul.

       

       

      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of inanc
      Sent: 26 October 2008 19:15
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum is just for UI based applications ?

       

      I am starting to believe that Scrum, XP or like agile methodologies
      had been invented for UI applications in mind.

      The current era of computer programming occurs most with web
      applications, and UI based OS'es, so that is natural I think.

      What do you think ? If you do not believe me please follow this:

      How to write a user story for building Google ?

      Think that you want to build Google with XP/Scrum etc. The fastest
      search engine in the world. The only UI is the minimalistic, textbox
      and 'go search' button UI. So how could you write user stories for
      Google ?

      All of the stories going to be epics or going to be too technical or
      task-like ?

    • Dmitry Beransky
      ... If there is a business need, there is almost by definition a user story, because business users would have to somehow describe to the developers what they
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 26, 2008
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        > How to write a user story for building Google ?

        If there is a business need, there is almost by definition a user
        story, because business users would have to somehow describe to the
        developers what they want.

        I think the problem some companies are having with coming up with
        proper use stories is that they are backseat driving the business.
      • Steve Berczuk
        ... What leads to that belief? ... And many of these applications have batch processes that run in the background to process data, generate reports, etc for
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 26, 2008
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          On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 3:15 PM, inanc <inanc@...> wrote:
          > I am starting to believe that Scrum, XP or like agile methodologies
          > had been invented for UI applications in mind.

          What leads to that belief?

          > The current era of computer programming occurs most with web
          > applications, and UI based OS'es, so that is natural I think.
          And many of these applications have batch processes that run in the
          background to process data, generate reports, etc for example...
          While a UI lends itself better to product owner review (at least at
          first glance -- pun intended) it's not necessary to demonstrate
          progress or value.

          > What do you think ? If you do not believe me please follow this:
          >
          > How to write a user story for building Google ?
          >
          > Think that you want to build Google with XP/Scrum etc. The fastest
          > search engine in the world. The only UI is the minimalistic, textbox
          > and 'go search' button UI. So how could you write user stories for
          > Google ?

          Just off the top of my head (others can probably improve these
          stories..) some stories that come to mind:

          -As a Search User I can search based on a single term so that I ...
          - As a Search User I can search using Boolean Operations....
          - As an Administrator I can update the search index manually...
          - As an Administrator I can monitor the progress of the search index...
          - As a Search User I can get a result back in X Seconds/
          - As an advertiser, I can configure what add content displays based on
          which keywords...

          Just a guess...

          Steve

          --
          Steve Berczuk | steve@... | http://www.berczuk.com
          SCM Patterns: Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
          www.scmpatterns.com
        • inanc
          ... methodologies ... There are not sufficient non-UI based stories, but a lot of UI based ones. And I am in front of a system which complex inside but simple
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 26, 2008
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            > On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 3:15 PM, inanc <inanc@...> wrote:
            > > I am starting to believe that Scrum, XP or like agile
            methodologies
            > > had been invented for UI applications in mind.
            >
            > What leads to that belief?
            >

            There are not sufficient non-UI based stories, but a lot of UI based
            ones. And I am in front of a system which complex inside but simple
            outside. I have tried to write user stories for my system but could
            not did it, they mostly turn out to be epics. I searched over the web,
            asked questions etc. but the recommended user stories still be epics
            mostly. I repeat, this is my "belief" not a property of these
            methodologies.

            > > The current era of computer programming occurs most with web
            > > applications, and UI based OS'es, so that is natural I think.
            > And many of these applications have batch processes that run in the
            > background to process data, generate reports, etc for example...
            > While a UI lends itself better to product owner review (at least at
            > first glance -- pun intended) it's not necessary to demonstrate
            > progress or value.
            >

            Yes sure, this is exactly my case. If we cannot demonstrate progress
            or value, do you think it is still really an agile approach ?


            > > How to write a user story for building Google ?
            > >
            > > Think that you want to build Google with XP/Scrum etc. The fastest
            > > search engine in the world. The only UI is the minimalistic,
            textbox
            > > and 'go search' button UI. So how could you write user stories for
            > > Google ?
            >
            > Just off the top of my head (others can probably improve these
            > stories..) some stories that come to mind:
            >
            > -As a Search User I can search based on a single term so that I ...
            > - As a Search User I can search using Boolean Operations....
            > - As an Administrator I can update the search index manually...
            > - As an Administrator I can monitor the progress of the search
            index...
            > - As a Search User I can get a result back in X Seconds/
            > - As an advertiser, I can configure what add content displays based
            on
            > which keywords...

            You see ? These stories you have recommended are epics. To complete
            these stories in a monthly iteration takes too many engineers ( which
            means very high velocity ). But to make it work for 3-5 engineers
            small team it's not seems possible to me because it goes beyond
            monthly iterations.

            Also, your stories suggest that, if a user of the system is technical
            then the stories can be technical, right ?
          • Keith Ray
            ... This single-term search story doesn t mean everything you think it is implying... it is NOT specifying a database, web-crawler, or even multiple users...
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 26, 2008
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              > -As a Search User I can search based on a single term so that  I ...

              You see ? These stories you have recommended are epics. To complete
              these stories in a monthly iteration takes too many engineers ( which
              means very high velocity ). But to make it work for 3-5 engineers
              small team it's not seems possible to me because it goes beyond
              monthly iterations.

              Also, your stories suggest that, if a user of the system is technical
              then the stories can be technical, right ?

              This single-term search story doesn't mean everything you think it is implying... it is NOT specifying a database, web-crawler, or even multiple users... those could be implied by other stories. The exact meaning of the story depends on what tests are specified, but a single person could implement a web page that lets a user enter a search term and server code that returns a query result in a few days (or hours, depending on the web frameworks involved.)

              --
              C. Keith Ray, IXP Coach, Industrial Logic, Inc.
              http://industriallogic.com      866-540-8336 (toll free)
              Groove with our Agile Greatest Hits: http://www.industriallogic.com/elearning/
              http://agilesolutionspace.blogspot.com/
            • inanc
              ... engine ... development could ... actual ... Great. ... for the ... So, is this a direct advantage for the driver ? If so, in the production process a
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 26, 2008
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                > I drive a Saab. Historically, Saabs have had quite sophisticated
                engine
                > management systems. These don't have a UI, but I think the
                development could
                > well have been approached incrementally, even though the releases to
                actual
                > drivers might not have been.
                >

                Great.


                > As a driver, I want my ECU to keep the engine within safe parameters
                for the
                > engine.
                >

                So, is this a direct advantage for the driver ? If so, in the
                production process a driver should be there ? Or product owner should
                propose these ?


                > As a Saab product manager, I want the ECU to get the most
                performance out of
                > any configuration (or "to offer performance beyond our competition"
                perhaps)
                >

                Very good.


                > As a Saab product manager, I want the software to fit in 128K of
                memory.
                >
                >
                > Yes, SCRUM focuses on business value, but that value doesn't have to
                be
                > realised through a human-computer interface.
                >

                Very good examples indeed. I liked your practical style cause I am a
                beginner for user stories, I need receipts :-)

                I can know see more detail on how to generate user stories for back
                end and in the same provides value to the business.

                So, I am assuming from your stories that technical user stories are
                acceptable if they brings business value, write ? For example:

                'As a Saab chief ECU engineer, I want a backup software unit in case
                of a failure.' ?
              • Steve Berczuk
                ... Yes. Two things to keep in mind... First, I just jotted this down quickly. But on the other hand this isn t too far from the first draft of a story for
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 26, 2008
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                  On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Keith Ray <keith.ray@...> wrote:
                  >> -As a Search User I can search based on a single term so that I ...

                  >
                  > This single-term search story doesn't mean everything you think it is
                  > implying... it is NOT specifying a database, web-crawler, or even multiple
                  > users... those could be implied by other stories. The exact meaning of the
                  > story depends on what tests are specified, but a single person could
                  > implement a web page that lets a user enter a search term and server code
                  > that returns a query result in a few days (or hours, depending on the web
                  > frameworks involved.)

                  Yes. Two things to keep in mind...
                  First, I just jotted this down quickly. But on the other hand this
                  isn't too far from the first draft of a story for an actual search
                  system I worked on.
                  Second... A user story is in invitation to a conversation. You
                  refine this story so that it really is an incremental step to the Big
                  System.

                  Steve
                  --
                  Steve Berczuk | steve@... | http://www.berczuk.com
                  SCM Patterns: Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
                  www.scmpatterns.com
                • Steve Berczuk
                  ... I said that it was less obvious, not impossible ;) you could, for example, - Run FIT tests that show the business login - demonstrate the results of a
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 26, 2008
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                    On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 3:59 PM, inanc <inanc@...> wrote:
                    >> > The current era of computer programming occurs most with web
                    >> > applications, and UI based OS'es, so that is natural I think.
                    >> And many of these applications have batch processes that run in the
                    >> background to process data, generate reports, etc for example...
                    >> While a UI lends itself better to product owner review (at least at
                    >> first glance -- pun intended) it's not necessary to demonstrate
                    >> progress or value.
                    >>
                    >
                    > Yes sure, this is exactly my case. If we cannot demonstrate progress
                    > or value, do you think it is still really an agile approach ?

                    I said that it was less obvious, not impossible ;)
                    you could, for example,
                    - Run FIT tests that show the business login
                    - demonstrate the results of a batch run (a report, etc)
                    - Demonstrate the result through a simple front end.

                    > You see ? These stories you have recommended are epics. To complete
                    > these stories in a monthly iteration takes too many engineers ( which
                    > means very high velocity ). But to make it work for 3-5 engineers
                    > small team it's not seems possible to me because it goes beyond
                    > monthly iterations.
                    >
                    > Also, your stories suggest that, if a user of the system is technical
                    > then the stories can be technical, right ?

                    Sure. Though I tend to think that you should tie in a business value
                    to everything. For example, setting up a CI system has the business
                    value of a more reliable delivery schedule... Yes, it seems like
                    technical overhead, but if it didn't add value, why do it? Sometimes
                    the value is ovious to everyone involved, But it's good to at least
                    address the question.

                    But, yes, a "User" can be another business process, for example...
                    "The Spider Process can determine when a page was last visited so that
                    it can more effectively schedule it's crawls..." (so that you can
                    index more pages so that you can get more visitors to your search
                    portal so that you can make more money from ads ;) )


                    Steve
                    --
                    Steve Berczuk | steve@... | http://www.berczuk.com
                    SCM Patterns: Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
                    www.scmpatterns.com
                  • inanc
                    ... progress ... I have got it, perfect. ... technical ... that ... At last, someone said that the user is a role case, that do not necessarily to be a human
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 26, 2008
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                      > >
                      > > Yes sure, this is exactly my case. If we cannot demonstrate
                      progress
                      > > or value, do you think it is still really an agile approach ?
                      >
                      > I said that it was less obvious, not impossible ;)
                      > you could, for example,
                      > - Run FIT tests that show the business login
                      > - demonstrate the results of a batch run (a report, etc)
                      > - Demonstrate the result through a simple front end.
                      >

                      I have got it, perfect.


                      > > Also, your stories suggest that, if a user of the system is
                      technical
                      > > then the stories can be technical, right ?
                      >
                      > Sure. Though I tend to think that you should tie in a business value
                      > to everything. For example, setting up a CI system has the business
                      > value of a more reliable delivery schedule... Yes, it seems like
                      > technical overhead, but if it didn't add value, why do it? Sometimes
                      > the value is ovious to everyone involved, But it's good to at least
                      > address the question.
                      >
                      > But, yes, a "User" can be another business process, for example...
                      > "The Spider Process can determine when a page was last visited so
                      that
                      > it can more effectively schedule it's crawls..." (so that you can
                      > index more pages so that you can get more visitors to your search
                      > portal so that you can make more money from ads ;) )
                      >

                      At last, someone said that the "user" is a role case, that do not
                      necessarily to be a human ;) If doing something generates business
                      value then crafting user stories around that value is the ultimate
                      goal. And of course we should also try our user stories obvious to the
                      stakeholders as much as we can.

                      I mean, we could be writing user stories for a lead-coder but trying
                      to make the user story be understandable from her boss also a good
                      goal I think.
                    • inanc
                      ... progress ... I have got it, perfect. ... technical ... that ... At last, someone said that the user is a role case, that do not necessarily to be a human
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 26, 2008
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                        > >
                        > > Yes sure, this is exactly my case. If we cannot demonstrate
                        progress
                        > > or value, do you think it is still really an agile approach ?
                        >
                        > I said that it was less obvious, not impossible ;)
                        > you could, for example,
                        > - Run FIT tests that show the business login
                        > - demonstrate the results of a batch run (a report, etc)
                        > - Demonstrate the result through a simple front end.
                        >

                        I have got it, perfect.


                        > > Also, your stories suggest that, if a user of the system is
                        technical
                        > > then the stories can be technical, right ?
                        >
                        > Sure. Though I tend to think that you should tie in a business value
                        > to everything. For example, setting up a CI system has the business
                        > value of a more reliable delivery schedule... Yes, it seems like
                        > technical overhead, but if it didn't add value, why do it? Sometimes
                        > the value is ovious to everyone involved, But it's good to at least
                        > address the question.
                        >
                        > But, yes, a "User" can be another business process, for example...
                        > "The Spider Process can determine when a page was last visited so
                        that
                        > it can more effectively schedule it's crawls..." (so that you can
                        > index more pages so that you can get more visitors to your search
                        > portal so that you can make more money from ads ;) )
                        >

                        At last, someone said that the "user" is a role case, that do not
                        necessarily to be a human ;) If doing something generates business
                        value then crafting user stories around that value is the ultimate
                        goal. And of course we should also try our user stories obvious to the
                        stakeholders as much as we can.

                        I mean, we could be writing user stories for a lead-coder but trying
                        to make the user story be understandable from her boss also a good
                        goal I think.
                      • George Dinwiddie
                        ... Given a particular selection of indexed pages 1. I would like to return pages containing the search term 2. I would like to not return pages not containing
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 26, 2008
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                          inanc wrote:
                          > How to write a user story for building Google ?

                          Given a particular selection of indexed pages
                          1. I would like to return pages containing the search term
                          2. I would like to not return pages not containing the search term
                          3. I would like to return pages containing parts of the search term,
                          but lower in the list than those containing the full search term
                          4. I would like to return pages with more references from other pages
                          earlier than pages with fewer.
                          5. I would like to return pages with the search term repeated many
                          times in a row later than pages with the search term scattered
                          throughout the document
                          etc.

                          Does this help?

                          - George

                          --
                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                          * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                          Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                          Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                        • Ron Jeffries
                          Hello, Keith. On Sunday, October 26, 2008, at 4:13:04 PM, you ... In fact the first story could accept only a couple of terms and could return canned result
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 26, 2008
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                            Hello, Keith. On Sunday, October 26, 2008, at 4:13:04 PM, you
                            wrote:

                            > This single-term search story doesn't mean everything you think it is
                            > implying... it is NOT specifying a database, web-crawler, or even multiple
                            > users... those could be implied by other stories. The exact meaning of the
                            > story depends on what tests are specified, but a single person could
                            > implement a web page that lets a user enter a search term and server code
                            > that returns a query result in a few days (or hours, depending on the web
                            > frameworks involved.)

                            In fact the first story could accept only a couple of terms and
                            could return canned result pages.

                            Ron Jeffries
                            www.XProgramming.com
                            www.xprogramming.com/blog
                            It's easy to have a complicated idea.
                            It's very very hard to have a simple idea.
                            -- Carver Mead
                          • Tom Mellor
                            Our company has used Scrum for many different projects - infrastructure, UI, legacy, process, and research to name a few. Scrum is used at Google. Scrum and
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 26, 2008
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                              Re:Scrum is just for UI based applications ?

                              Our company has used Scrum for many different projects - infrastructure, UI, legacy, process, and research to name a few.  Scrum is used at Google.  Scrum and XP are not methodologies - they are lightweight processes. 

                              Tom Mellor
                              Certified Scrum Trainer
                              tom.mellor.c5t2@...
                              309.846.4899 (Work and Cell)
                               

                            • Ron Jeffries
                              Hello, inanc. On Sunday, October 26, 2008, at 4:43:08 PM, you ... Writing stories is the job of the Scrum Product Owner. She gets advice from lots of people
                              Message 14 of 21 , Oct 26, 2008
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                                Hello, inanc. On Sunday, October 26, 2008, at 4:43:08 PM, you
                                wrote:

                                > At last, someone said that the "user" is a role case, that do not
                                > necessarily to be a human ;) If doing something generates business
                                > value then crafting user stories around that value is the ultimate
                                > goal. And of course we should also try our user stories obvious to the
                                > stakeholders as much as we can.

                                > I mean, we could be writing user stories for a lead-coder but trying
                                > to make the user story be understandable from her boss also a good
                                > goal I think.

                                Writing stories is the job of the Scrum Product Owner. She gets
                                advice from lots of people including lead coders. However, technical
                                stories are a process smell in my experience, and I recommend that
                                they be avoided entirely if at all possible.

                                Ron Jeffries
                                www.XProgramming.com
                                www.xprogramming.com/blog
                                You do ill if you praise, but worse if you censure,
                                what you do not understand. --Leonardo da Vinci
                              • Roy Morien
                                Yes, very true ... but then, who ever asked you? Also, don t you think there might be someone in charge of development of that ECU at Saab who thought the
                                Message 15 of 21 , Oct 26, 2008
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                                  Yes, very true ... but then, who ever asked you? Also, don't you think there might be someone 'in charge' of development of that ECU at Saab who thought the same thing as you?
                                   
                                  And if nobody asked you, but these things were part of the development of the project, then maybe we can adopt my new term Surrogate User. That is, if we really need a new term, and the term User is not seen as sufficient or appropriate in this situation.
                                   
                                  Regards,
                                  Roy Morien






                                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: phudson@...
                                  Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 19:36:35 +0000
                                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum is just for UI based applications ?


                                  Here’s an example of one without a UI.

                                   

                                  I drive a Saab. Historically, Saabs have had quite sophisticated engine management systems. These don’t have a UI, but I think the development could well have been approached incrementally, even though the releases to actual drivers might not have been.

                                   

                                  As a driver, I want my ECU to keep the engine within safe parameters for the engine.

                                  As a driver, I want my ECU to automatically deal with different fuel grades.

                                  As a driver, I want my ECU to automatically adjust to my driving style (performance vs. economy)

                                  As a Saab product manager, I want the ECU to automatically cope with different components (turbos, auto/manual transmission, engine capacity)….

                                  As a Saab product manager, I want the ECU to get the most performance out of any configuration (or “to offer performance beyond our competition” perhaps)

                                  As a driver, I want my ECU to revert to “limp home” mode if faults are detected in engine or sensors so no further damage is done.

                                  As a Saab product manager, I want the software to fit in 128K of memory…

                                   

                                  Etc, etc.

                                   

                                  Yes, SCRUM focuses on business value, but that value doesn’t have to be realised through a human-computer interface.

                                   

                                  Paul.

                                   

                                   

                                  From: scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:scrumdevelo pment@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of inanc
                                  Sent: 26 October 2008 19:15
                                  To: scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum is just for UI based applications ?

                                   

                                  I am starting to believe that Scrum, XP or like agile methodologies
                                  had been invented for UI applications in mind.

                                  The current era of computer programming occurs most with web
                                  applications, and UI based OS'es, so that is natural I think.

                                  What do you think ? If you do not believe me please follow this:

                                  How to write a user story for building Google ?

                                  Think that you want to build Google with XP/Scrum etc. The fastest
                                  search engine in the world. The only UI is the minimalistic, textbox
                                  and 'go search' button UI. So how could you write user stories for
                                  Google ?

                                  All of the stories going to be epics or going to be too technical or
                                  task-like ?




                                • Roy Morien
                                  I can t possibly see how stating performance criteria, and requesting processing activity that will be deeply embedded in the product (ie: not being a surface
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Oct 26, 2008
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                                    I can't possibly see how stating performance criteria, and requesting processing activity that will be deeply embedded in the product (ie: not being a surface activity) can be seen as a smell. Surely these things must be stated as required, and stating them as a User Story is useful. The only debate I would see as relevant is what do we call the person who suggests it? And that is pretty much toying with semantics, in my view.
                                     
                                    Regards,
                                    Roy Morien



                                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: ronjeffries@...
                                    Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 20:12:00 -0400
                                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum is just for UI based applications ?


                                    Hello, inanc. On Sunday, October 26, 2008, at 4:43:08 PM, you
                                    wrote:

                                    > At last, someone said that the "user" is a role case, that do not
                                    > necessarily to be a human ;) If doing something generates business
                                    > value then crafting user stories around that value is the ultimate
                                    > goal. And of course we should also try our user stories obvious to the
                                    > stakeholders as much as we can.

                                    > I mean, we could be writing user stories for a lead-coder but trying
                                    > to make the user story be understandable from her boss also a good
                                    > goal I think.

                                    Writing stories is the job of the Scrum Product Owner. She gets
                                    advice from lots of people including lead coders. However, technical
                                    stories are a process smell in my experience, and I recommend that
                                    they be avoided entirely if at all possible.

                                    Ron Jeffries
                                    www.XProgramming. com
                                    www.xprogramming. com/blog
                                    You do ill if you praise, but worse if you censure,
                                    what you do not understand. --Leonardo da Vinci




                                  • Paul Hudson
                                    Ø Yes, very true ... but then, who ever asked you? Also, don t you think there might be someone in charge of development of that ECU at Saab who thought
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Oct 27, 2008
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                                      Ø  Yes, very true ... but then, who ever asked you? Also, don't you think there might be someone 'in charge' of development of that ECU at Saab who thought the same thing as you?
                                       

                                      I have no idea what you are on about here. I was responding to Inanc’s message where he  asks if Scrum is for UI based applications only. I gave an example of  a situation where I thought Scrum (and user stories, which has been the focus of inanc’s other questions) was applicable despite the lack of a UI.

                                       

                                      It was not anything to do with users, or surrogate users

                                       

                                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Roy Morien
                                      Sent: 27 October 2008 03:11
                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum is just for UI based applications ?

                                       

                                      Yes, very true ... but then, who ever asked you? Also, don't you think there might be someone 'in charge' of development of that ECU at Saab who thought the same thing as you?
                                       
                                      And if nobody asked you, but these things were part of the development of the project, then maybe we can adopt my new term Surrogate User. That is, if we really need a new term, and the term User is not seen as sufficient or appropriate in this situation.
                                       
                                      Regards,
                                      Roy Morien





                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: phudson@...
                                      Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 19:36:35 +0000
                                      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum is just for UI based applications ?

                                      Here’s an example of one without a UI.

                                       

                                      I drive a Saab. Historically, Saabs have had quite sophisticated engine management systems. These don’t have a UI, but I think the development could well have been approached incrementally, even though the releases to actual drivers might not have been.

                                       

                                      As a driver, I want my ECU to keep the engine within safe parameters for the engine.

                                      As a driver, I want my ECU to automatically deal with different fuel grades.

                                      As a driver, I want my ECU to automatically adjust to my driving style (performance vs. economy)

                                      As a Saab product manager, I want the ECU to automatically cope with different components (turbos, auto/manual transmission, engine capacity)….

                                      As a Saab product manager, I want the ECU to get the most performance out of any configuration (or “to offer performance beyond our competition” perhaps)

                                      As a driver, I want my ECU to revert to “limp home” mode if faults are detected in engine or sensors so no further damage is done.

                                      As a Saab product manager, I want the software to fit in 128K of memory…

                                       

                                      Etc, etc.

                                       

                                      Yes, SCRUM focuses on business value, but that value doesn’t have to be realised through a human-computer interface.

                                       

                                      Paul.

                                       

                                       

                                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of inanc
                                      Sent: 26 October 2008 19:15
                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum is just for UI based applications ?

                                       

                                      I am starting to believe that Scrum, XP or like agile methodologies
                                      had been invented for UI applications in mind.

                                      The current era of computer programming occurs most with web
                                      applications, and UI based OS'es, so that is natural I think.

                                      What do you think ? If you do not believe me please follow this:

                                      How to write a user story for building Google ?

                                      Think that you want to build Google with XP/Scrum etc. The fastest
                                      search engine in the world. The only UI is the minimalistic, textbox
                                      and 'go search' button UI. So how could you write user stories for
                                      Google ?

                                      All of the stories going to be epics or going to be too technical or
                                      task-like ?

                                       

                                       


                                    • Roy Morien
                                      OK, let s drop the subject. It s getting too heavy for me. To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.comFrom: phudson@pobox.comDate: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 08:01:41
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Oct 27, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        OK, let's drop the subject. It's getting too heavy for me.




                                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        From: phudson@...
                                        Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 08:01:41 +0000
                                        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum is just for UI based applications ?

                                        Ø  Yes, very true ... but then, who ever asked you? Also, don't you think there might be someone 'in charge' of development of that ECU at Saab who thought the same thing as you?
                                         

                                        I have no idea what you are on about here. I was responding to Inanc’s message where he  asks if Scrum is for UI based applications only. I gave an example of  a situation where I thought Scrum (and user stories, which has been the focus of inanc’s other questions) was applicable despite the lack of a UI.

                                         

                                        It was not anything to do with users, or surrogate users

                                         

                                        From: scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:scrumdevelo pment@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Roy Morien
                                        Sent: 27 October 2008 03:11
                                        To: scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com
                                        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum is just for UI based applications ?

                                         

                                        Yes, very true ... but then, who ever asked you? Also, don't you think there might be someone 'in charge' of development of that ECU at Saab who thought the same thing as you?
                                         
                                        And if nobody asked you, but these things were part of the development of the project, then maybe we can adopt my new term Surrogate User. That is, if we really need a new term, and the term User is not seen as sufficient or appropriate in this situation.
                                         
                                        Regards,
                                        Roy Morien






                                        To: scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com
                                        From: phudson@pobox. com
                                        Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 19:36:35 +0000
                                        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum is just for UI based applications ?

                                        Here’s an example of one without a UI.

                                         

                                        I drive a Saab. Historically, Saabs have had quite sophisticated engine management systems. These don’t have a UI, but I think the development could well have been approached incrementally, even though the releases to actual drivers might not have been.

                                         

                                        As a driver, I want my ECU to keep the engine within safe parameters for the engine.

                                        As a driver, I want my ECU to automatically deal with different fuel grades.

                                        As a driver, I want my ECU to automatically adjust to my driving style (performance vs. economy)

                                        As a Saab product manager, I want the ECU to automatically cope with different components (turbos, auto/manual transmission, engine capacity)….

                                        As a Saab product manager, I want the ECU to get the most performance out of any configuration (or “to offer performance beyond our competition” perhaps)

                                        As a driver, I want my ECU to revert to “limp home” mode if faults are detected in engine or sensors so no further damage is done.

                                        As a Saab product manager, I want the software to fit in 128K of memory…

                                         

                                        Etc, etc.

                                         

                                        Yes, SCRUM focuses on business value, but that value doesn’t have to be realised through a human-computer interface.

                                         

                                        Paul.

                                         

                                         

                                        From: scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:scrumdevelo pment@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of inanc
                                        Sent: 26 October 2008 19:15
                                        To: scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com
                                        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum is just for UI based applications ?

                                         

                                        I am starting to believe that Scrum, XP or like agile methodologies
                                        had been invented for UI applications in mind.

                                        The current era of computer programming occurs most with web
                                        applications, and UI based OS'es, so that is natural I think.

                                        What do you think ? If you do not believe me please follow this:

                                        How to write a user story for building Google ?

                                        Think that you want to build Google with XP/Scrum etc. The fastest
                                        search engine in the world. The only UI is the minimalistic, textbox
                                        and 'go search' button UI. So how could you write user stories for
                                        Google ?

                                        All of the stories going to be epics or going to be too technical or
                                        task-like ?

                                         

                                         





                                      • Ron Jeffries
                                        Hello, Roy. On Sunday, October 26, 2008, at 11:56:24 PM, you ... Sometimes, Roy, it seems to me that you try not to understand. Perhaps it is the language
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Oct 27, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hello, Roy. On Sunday, October 26, 2008, at 11:56:24 PM, you
                                          wrote:

                                          > I can't possibly see how stating performance criteria, and
                                          > requesting processing activity that will be deeply embedded in the
                                          > product (ie: not being a surface activity) can be seen as a smell.
                                          > Surely these things must be stated as required, and stating them
                                          > as a User Story is useful. The only debate I would see as relevant
                                          > is what do we call the person who suggests it? And that is pretty
                                          > much toying with semantics, in my view.

                                          Sometimes, Roy, it seems to me that you try not to understand.
                                          Perhaps it is the language barrier. I didn't say that stating
                                          performance criteria was a smell. I said that technical stories --
                                          stories without a clear business purpose that the product owner
                                          understands and wants -- are a process smell.

                                          Stories like that tend to reduce the product owner's understanding
                                          of what is going on, and tend to allow decisions to be made solely
                                          on a technical basis that would benefit from being done on the basis
                                          of their real value to the business enterprise.

                                          Technical stories may not inevitably cause problems. However, when I
                                          visit teams who do lots of technical stories, they have a higher
                                          proportion of huge ongoing activities that are not product owner
                                          driven. They have less of a focus on DONE-DONE. They are less
                                          successful.

                                          Since technical stories often are involved in team problems, and
                                          since technical stories, as far as I can see, are never actually
                                          necessary, I recommend avoiding them. Doing so helps the team
                                          concentrate on the business purpose and value of the work. That
                                          seems to me to be a good thing.

                                          Ron Jeffries
                                          www.XProgramming.com
                                          www.xprogramming.com/blog
                                          Make it real or else forget about it -- Carlos Santana
                                        • Roy Morien
                                          ... The logic of my statement was that we had been talking about technical stories being User Stories or not. The specific example of a technical story was
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Oct 27, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            :) it must be the fact that I am Australian and we speak a different style of English, Ron :)

                                            The logic of my statement was that we had been talking about technical stories being User Stories or not. The specific example of a technical story was about performance criteria. You stated that you see technical stories as a smell. I therefore assumed that you considered a technical story about performance criteria was a smell. When I referred to 'stating performance criteria and requesting processing activity that will be embedded in the product' I was talking about User Stories that referenced these things.
                                             
                                            So ... a technical story is a smell ... therefore a technical story about performance criteria is a smell ...

                                            My view on this discussion is, frankly, that there has been an awful lot of sophism in the discussion. Too much argumentation has taken place over an interesting, useful, but uncontroversial topic, I think.
                                             
                                            But I will make one final comment (from me) on the topic. The original posting was talking about processes embedded deep in a search engine. These processes were apparently seen as being important to the value of the search engine to a population of users. That importance was recognised and stated by someone ... apparently the Product Owner. These process requirements were seen as being useful, and worthy of development ... not some sort of gold plating by runaway developers. So, as far as I am concerned, they make valid User Stories, and have all the characteristics of good User stories.  They did not reduce the Product Owners understanding (I assume). The Product Owner, in the role of what I termed surrogate user, presumably was technically 'with it' and authoritative.  These were not just technical issues that drew the attention of the developers away from what was valuable to the organisation. They were (presumably) of considerable value within the product, and may even have had a major impact on the success of the product in the marketplace.

                                            So these technical stories, apparently, were indeed valuable to the business purpose and were valuable work.
                                             
                                            Yes, where there is a non-technical Product Owner who is imposing un-asked for User Stories on the team, and where there is unasked for development, that is a problem, and I can only agree with you.
                                             
                                            Regards,
                                            Roy Morien


                                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                            From: ronjeffries@...
                                            Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 07:44:11 -0400
                                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum is just for UI based applications ?


                                            Hello, Roy. On Sunday, October 26, 2008, at 11:56:24 PM, you
                                            wrote:

                                            > I can't possibly see how stating performance criteria, and
                                            > requesting processing activity that will be deeply embedded in the
                                            > product (ie: not being a surface activity) can be seen as a smell.
                                            > Surely these things must be stated as required, and stating them
                                            > as a User Story is useful. The only debate I would see as relevant
                                            > is what do we call the person who suggests it? And that is pretty
                                            > much toying with semantics, in my view.

                                            Sometimes, Roy, it seems to me that you try not to understand.
                                            Perhaps it is the language barrier. I didn't say that stating
                                            performance criteria was a smell. I said that technical stories --
                                            stories without a clear business purpose that the product owner
                                            understands and wants -- are a process smell.

                                            Stories like that tend to reduce the product owner's understanding
                                            of what is going on, and tend to allow decisions to be made solely
                                            on a technical basis that would benefit from being done on the basis
                                            of their real value to the business enterprise.

                                            Technical stories may not inevitably cause problems. However, when I
                                            visit teams who do lots of technical stories, they have a higher
                                            proportion of huge ongoing activities that are not product owner
                                            driven. They have less of a focus on DONE-DONE. They are less
                                            successful.

                                            Since technical stories often are involved in team problems, and
                                            since technical stories, as far as I can see, are never actually
                                            necessary, I recommend avoiding them. Doing so helps the team
                                            concentrate on the business purpose and value of the work. That
                                            seems to me to be a good thing.

                                            Ron Jeffries
                                            www.XProgramming. com
                                            www.xprogramming. com/blog
                                            Make it real or else forget about it -- Carlos Santana




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