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Re: Outsource Scrum

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  • woynam
    Actually, it does sound like Scum(tm). :-) Scum(tm) should not be confused with Scrum, however. Scum(tm) was invented by ol PMBOK types to confuse people. You
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 1, 2008
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      Actually, it does sound like Scum(tm). :-) Scum(tm) should not be
      confused with Scrum, however.

      Scum(tm) was invented by 'ol PMBOK types to confuse people. You really
      do need to see the contract to determine if it says the team would use
      Scum(tm) or Scrum.

      In Scum(tm), PO doesn't stand for Product Owner. It stands for P*ss Off.

      Mark

      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Campbell"
      <garvinpromo@...> wrote:
      >
      > I agree, it doesn't sound like Scum to me either. Being new to Scrum I
      > thought maybe I was missing something,
      >
      > Thanks.
      >
      > On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 6:38 AM, Doug McQuilken <dougmcq000@...>wrote:
      >
      > > Hmmm............. if there is no transparency how would you know
      whether
      > > they utilized scrum methodology?
      > >
      > > Regards,
      > > Doug
      > >
      > > --- On *Sat, 9/27/08, George Dinwiddie <lists@...>* wrote:
      > >
      > > From: George Dinwiddie <lists@...>
      > > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Outsource Scrum
      > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      > > Date: Saturday, September 27, 2008, 12:06 AM
      > >
      > > wfc_85283 wrote:
      > > > I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner
      contracted
      > > > our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
      > > > project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop
      using the
      > > > Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
      > > > educating myself on Scrum.
      > >
      > > How often are they to deliver working code to you?
      > >
      > > Do you have access to the contract to see what they are obligated
      to do?
      > > It may well be that their mention of Scrum has nothing to do with
      > > their relationship with their clients.
      > >
      > > - George
      > >
      > > --
      > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
      > > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog. gdinwiddie.
      com<http://blog.gdinwiddie.com>
      > > Software Development http://www.idiacomp
      uting.com<http://www.idiacomputing.com>
      > > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemar
      yland.org<http://www.agilemaryland.org>
      > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • davidwebb000
      Having been a consumer and a provider of nearshore agile development services I usually recommend the product owner gets in front of the development team at
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 2, 2008
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        Having been a consumer and a provider of nearshore agile development services I
        usually recommend the product owner gets in front of the development team at least one
        week in 12. A well performing agile development team can produce a lot of code that is
        not required without the constant steering of the product owner. That is very difficult to do
        when the PO does not have a rapport with the team. I have always found in these
        circumstances that for your $2k of travel you get a great return on your investment.
        Regards
        David
        www.exigenservices.com
        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Mike Vizdos <mvizdos@...> wrote:
        >
        > Time for you to hop on a plane?
        >
        > Thank you,
        >
        > - Mike Vizdos
        > Vizdos Enterprises, LLC
        >
        > Contact Information
        >
        > Web: www.implementingscrum.com
        > www.michaelvizdos.com
        >
        > AOL IM: MikeV Work
        > Twitter: mvizdos
        > Skype: mvizdos
        > Phone: +1 619-709-1716
        > Fax: +1 425-675-7296
        >
        > PS: Come to one of my workshops. Visit michaelvizdos.com/enroll.
        >
        > PPS: Visit implementingscrum.com/subscribe. Receive 2 FREE videos.
        >
        > On Sep 26, 2008, at 2:25 PM, wfc_85283 wrote:
        >
        > > I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
        > > our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
        > > project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
        > > Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
        > > educating myself on Scrum.
        > >
        > > I have the responsibility to ensure that the system meets requirements
        > > and that the final product is a system that is maintainable and one
        > > that can grow with the changing needs of the business.
        > >
        > > I am the Product Owner. I have given the folks in Mexico a
        > > Waterfall-ish requirements document and the Product Backlog containing
        > > the user stories.
        > >
        > > I'm concerned because the outsourcing firm has shown little interest
        > > in getting to know our business model. I have received no questions
        > > or feedback on the documents that I gave them. They have indicated
        > > that although I am the Product Owner, I will not be involved in the
        > > Sprint Planning meeting, the Sprint Review nor will I be invited to
        > > the daily Scrums.
        > >
        > > I thought Scrum called for more communication, not less. I thought
        > > Scrum called for a Team that possessed a strong business knowledge.
        > >
        > > Our first Sprint is scheduled to start on Monday. I'm really at a
        > > loss as to how to continue. It seems obvious to me that they are
        > > clueless but being new to Scrum I'm not so sure.
        > >
        > > All comments are welcome. Thanks in advance for your input.
        > >
        > > Bill
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
      • mike.dwyer1@comcast.net
        I find this to be hard to fathom A well performing agile development team can produce a lot of code that is not required without the constant steering of the
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 3, 2008
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          I find this to be hard to fathom
          "A well performing agile development team can produce a lot of code that is not required without the constant steering of the product owner."
          First if the product owner is not a part of the team how do they know what done is. Second any team that is good at scrum stops building and goes surfing once they have built to the PO definition of DONE.
          You might reconsider their level of skill and self discipline.

          Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T


          From: "davidwebb000" <david.webb@...>
          Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 07:42:19 -0000
          To: <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Outsource Scrum

          Having been a consumer and a provider of nearshore agile development services I
          usually recommend the product owner gets in front of the development team at least one
          week in 12. A well performing agile development team can produce a lot of code that is
          not required without the constant steering of the product owner. That is very difficult to do
          when the PO does not have a rapport with the team. I have always found in these
          circumstances that for your $2k of travel you get a great return on your investment.
          Regards
          David
          www.exigenservices. com

          --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Mike Vizdos <mvizdos@... > wrote:
          >
          > Time for you to hop on a plane?
          >
          > Thank you,
          >
          > - Mike Vizdos
          > Vizdos Enterprises, LLC
          >
          > Contact Information
          >
          > Web: www.implementingscr um.com
          > www.michaelvizdos. com
          >
          > AOL IM: MikeV Work
          > Twitter: mvizdos
          > Skype: mvizdos
          > Phone: +1 619-709-1716
          > Fax: +1 425-675-7296
          >
          > PS: Come to one of my workshops. Visit michaelvizdos. com/enroll.
          >
          > PPS: Visit implementingscrum. com/subscribe. Receive 2 FREE videos.
          >
          > On Sep 26, 2008, at 2:25 PM, wfc_85283 wrote:
          >
          > > I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
          > > our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
          > > project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
          > > Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
          > > educating myself on Scrum.
          > >
          > > I have the responsibility to ensure that the system meets requirements
          > > and that the final product is a system that is maintainable and one
          > > that can grow with the changing needs of the business.
          > >
          > > I am the Product Owner. I have given the folks in Mexico a
          > > Waterfall-ish requirements document and the Product Backlog containing
          > > the user stories.
          > >
          > > I'm concerned because the outsourcing firm has shown little interest
          > > in getting to know our business model. I have received no questions
          > > or feedback on the documents that I gave them. They have indicated
          > > that although I am the Product Owner, I will not be involved in the
          > > Sprint Planning meeting, the Sprint Review nor will I be invited to
          > > the daily Scrums.
          > >
          > > I thought Scrum called for more communication, not less. I thought
          > > Scrum called for a Team that possessed a strong business knowledge.
          > >
          > > Our first Sprint is scheduled to start on Monday. I'm really at a
          > > loss as to how to continue. It seems obvious to me that they are
          > > clueless but being new to Scrum I'm not so sure.
          > >
          > > All comments are welcome. Thanks in advance for your input.
          > >
          > > Bill
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >

        • andybrandt_dot_net
          Bill! Lots of good advice here already, but I feel I can contribute to the discussion as I run a company that delivers Scrum-based software development
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 6, 2008
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            Bill!

            Lots of good advice here already, but I feel I can contribute to the
            discussion as I run a company that delivers Scrum-based software
            development services, so I see it from your Mexican partner's POV.
            Now, what they do is clearly wrong. You as a PO should be much more
            involved. You should be at least on Sprint Planning and Review, you
            should have access to the sprint and project backlogs, be able to
            inspect burndown and talk to the team whenever there is a need. Them
            not coming back with questions is especially worrying.

            It would be advisable if you would also have access to some kind of
            test system where you could follow what is being built.

            Now, all this is of course more difficult when working over a
            distance. We have the same problem with our clients - we meet with
            them sometimes, but normally we have to use technology to ensure their
            adequate engagement in the project. So we came up with a standard set
            of tools we give our clients to encourage them to be as much involved
            as possible.

            That includes:
            - access to project code repository – clients can view or download the
            repository at any moment,
            - access to project bug tracking & Wiki pages,
            - access to test system – it is the working version of the system
            under development with test data, automatically updated from the
            repository many times a day.
            - access Scrum tracking software – project backlog, sprint backlog,
            tasks, burndown are kept there, client is encourage to manage project
            backlog himself,
            - a Skype based project chat up at all times with whole team on,
            - ideally listening in to Daily Scrum + short discussion after if
            there are any points to be covered.

            All of this is implementable, especially as this project is only
            beginning. You should insist that your Mexican partner provides at
            least the level of openness and communication I'm writing about. As
            things stand now best you can do is fly there and try to get all I
            suggest above. And get to know those people - it really helps if you
            explain them face to face what you want and why you want it. I'm sure
            they want the project to be a success - their livelihood depends on it.

            Best regards,
            Andy Brandt

            Code Sprinters



            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "wfc_85283" <garvinpromo@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
            > our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
            > project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
            > Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
            > educating myself on Scrum.
            >
            > I have the responsibility to ensure that the system meets requirements
            > and that the final product is a system that is maintainable and one
            > that can grow with the changing needs of the business.
            >
            > I am the Product Owner. I have given the folks in Mexico a
            > Waterfall-ish requirements document and the Product Backlog containing
            > the user stories.
            >
            > I'm concerned because the outsourcing firm has shown little interest
            > in getting to know our business model. I have received no questions
            > or feedback on the documents that I gave them. They have indicated
            > that although I am the Product Owner, I will not be involved in the
            > Sprint Planning meeting, the Sprint Review nor will I be invited to
            > the daily Scrums.
            >
            > I thought Scrum called for more communication, not less. I thought
            > Scrum called for a Team that possessed a strong business knowledge.
            >
            > Our first Sprint is scheduled to start on Monday. I'm really at a
            > loss as to how to continue. It seems obvious to me that they are
            > clueless but being new to Scrum I'm not so sure.
            >
            > All comments are welcome. Thanks in advance for your input.
            >
            > Bill
            >
          • chuckspublicprofile
            Bill, one more vote that you re on the right track. Get down there to Mexico and find out for yourself. Doing anything else is a disaster waiting to happen,
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 6, 2008
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              Bill, one more vote that you're on the right track.

              Get down there to Mexico and find out for yourself. Doing anything
              else is a disaster waiting to happen, IMO. I also like the "hire a
              coach" for a couple of days suggestion.

              Due to your recent introduction to Scrum, please feel free to use this
              list as a resource to continue to investigate your issue.

              Charles Bradley
              CSM



              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "andybrandt_dot_net"
              <andy@...> wrote:
              >
              > Bill!
              >
              > Lots of good advice here already, but I feel I can contribute to the
              > discussion as I run a company that delivers Scrum-based software
              > development services, so I see it from your Mexican partner's POV.
              > Now, what they do is clearly wrong. You as a PO should be much more
              > involved. You should be at least on Sprint Planning and Review, you
              > should have access to the sprint and project backlogs, be able to
              > inspect burndown and talk to the team whenever there is a need. Them
              > not coming back with questions is especially worrying.
              >
              > It would be advisable if you would also have access to some kind of
              > test system where you could follow what is being built.
              >
              > Now, all this is of course more difficult when working over a
              > distance. We have the same problem with our clients - we meet with
              > them sometimes, but normally we have to use technology to ensure their
              > adequate engagement in the project. So we came up with a standard set
              > of tools we give our clients to encourage them to be as much involved
              > as possible.
              >
              > That includes:
              > - access to project code repository – clients can view or download the
              > repository at any moment,
              > - access to project bug tracking & Wiki pages,
              > - access to test system – it is the working version of the system
              > under development with test data, automatically updated from the
              > repository many times a day.
              > - access Scrum tracking software – project backlog, sprint backlog,
              > tasks, burndown are kept there, client is encourage to manage project
              > backlog himself,
              > - a Skype based project chat up at all times with whole team on,
              > - ideally listening in to Daily Scrum + short discussion after if
              > there are any points to be covered.
              >
              > All of this is implementable, especially as this project is only
              > beginning. You should insist that your Mexican partner provides at
              > least the level of openness and communication I'm writing about. As
              > things stand now best you can do is fly there and try to get all I
              > suggest above. And get to know those people - it really helps if you
              > explain them face to face what you want and why you want it. I'm sure
              > they want the project to be a success - their livelihood depends on it.
              >
              > Best regards,
              > Andy Brandt
              >
              > Code Sprinters
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "wfc_85283" <garvinpromo@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
              > > our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
              > > project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
              > > Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
              > > educating myself on Scrum.
              > >
              > > I have the responsibility to ensure that the system meets requirements
              > > and that the final product is a system that is maintainable and one
              > > that can grow with the changing needs of the business.
              > >
              > > I am the Product Owner. I have given the folks in Mexico a
              > > Waterfall-ish requirements document and the Product Backlog containing
              > > the user stories.
              > >
              > > I'm concerned because the outsourcing firm has shown little interest
              > > in getting to know our business model. I have received no questions
              > > or feedback on the documents that I gave them. They have indicated
              > > that although I am the Product Owner, I will not be involved in the
              > > Sprint Planning meeting, the Sprint Review nor will I be invited to
              > > the daily Scrums.
              > >
              > > I thought Scrum called for more communication, not less. I thought
              > > Scrum called for a Team that possessed a strong business knowledge.
              > >
              > > Our first Sprint is scheduled to start on Monday. I'm really at a
              > > loss as to how to continue. It seems obvious to me that they are
              > > clueless but being new to Scrum I'm not so sure.
              > >
              > > All comments are welcome. Thanks in advance for your input.
              > >
              > > Bill
              > >
              >
            • Vance, Terrie
              I would like to know how Configuration Management fits into Scrum Development. I am tracking what backlog task are being worked on, what task are complete,
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 7, 2008
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                I would like to know how Configuration Management fits into Scrum Development.  I am tracking what backlog task are being worked on, what task are complete, what task will be worked on in future iterations.

                 

                I would also like to know how to handle defect corrections and change request.  My team feels that these are put on the backlog so they don't need to be identified in our CM Tool.

                 

                Please help, I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle.  Our "Scrum Master" seems to think that CM does not have a place in Scrum Development.

                 

                 

              • Mark Levison
                Vance it might be best if you spun this question out into its own thread. Alot more people will read in that way. Cheers Mark Levison
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 7, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Vance it might be best if you spun this question out into its own thread. Alot more people will read in that way.

                  Cheers
                  Mark Levison

                  On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Vance, Terrie <terrie.vance@...> wrote:

                  I would like to know how Configuration Management fits into Scrum Development.  I am tracking what backlog task are being worked on, what task are complete, what task will be worked on in future iterations.

                   

                  I would also like to know how to handle defect corrections and change request.  My team feels that these are put on the backlog so they don't need to be identified in our CM Tool.

                   

                  Please help, I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle.  Our "Scrum Master" seems to think that CM does not have a place in Scrum Development.

                   

                   


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