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Outsource Scrum

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  • wfc_85283
    I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the project. The outfit
    Message 1 of 25 , Sep 26, 2008
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      I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
      our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
      project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
      Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
      educating myself on Scrum.

      I have the responsibility to ensure that the system meets requirements
      and that the final product is a system that is maintainable and one
      that can grow with the changing needs of the business.

      I am the Product Owner. I have given the folks in Mexico a
      Waterfall-ish requirements document and the Product Backlog containing
      the user stories.

      I'm concerned because the outsourcing firm has shown little interest
      in getting to know our business model. I have received no questions
      or feedback on the documents that I gave them. They have indicated
      that although I am the Product Owner, I will not be involved in the
      Sprint Planning meeting, the Sprint Review nor will I be invited to
      the daily Scrums.

      I thought Scrum called for more communication, not less. I thought
      Scrum called for a Team that possessed a strong business knowledge.

      Our first Sprint is scheduled to start on Monday. I'm really at a
      loss as to how to continue. It seems obvious to me that they are
      clueless but being new to Scrum I'm not so sure.

      All comments are welcome. Thanks in advance for your input.

      Bill
    • Ken Ward
      ... Hi Bill, Sounds like you are in for a challenging Sprint . I think that you might be best to find out who the ScrumMaster is and have a discussion with
      Message 2 of 25 , Sep 26, 2008
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        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "wfc_85283" <garvinpromo@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
        > our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
        > project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
        > Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
        > educating myself on Scrum.
        >
        > I have the responsibility to ensure that the system meets requirements
        > and that the final product is a system that is maintainable and one
        > that can grow with the changing needs of the business.
        >
        > I am the Product Owner. I have given the folks in Mexico a
        > Waterfall-ish requirements document and the Product Backlog containing
        > the user stories.
        >
        > I'm concerned because the outsourcing firm has shown little interest
        > in getting to know our business model. I have received no questions
        > or feedback on the documents that I gave them. They have indicated
        > that although I am the Product Owner, I will not be involved in the
        > Sprint Planning meeting, the Sprint Review nor will I be invited to
        > the daily Scrums.
        >
        > I thought Scrum called for more communication, not less. I thought
        > Scrum called for a Team that possessed a strong business knowledge.
        >
        > Our first Sprint is scheduled to start on Monday. I'm really at a
        > loss as to how to continue. It seems obvious to me that they are
        > clueless but being new to Scrum I'm not so sure.
        >
        > All comments are welcome. Thanks in advance for your input.
        >
        > Bill
        >
        Hi Bill,

        Sounds like you are in for a challenging 'Sprint'. I think that you
        might be best to find out who the 'ScrumMaster' is and have a
        discussion with him regarding the Scrum framework and the
        responsibilities of the Roles within Scrum. As a Product Owner you are
        the one responsible for the Product Backlog and the prioritization of
        the items within the backlog. as a start you might want to read Ken
        Schwaber's book ' Agile Project Management with Scrum' especially the
        Appendix A beginning on 133 to give you insight into the roles and
        rules.

        Best of luck, if you have any further questions feel free to contact
        me with them.

        Best regards,
        Ken Ward
      • Elizabeth V Woodward
        Is it possible that they see you as a stakeholder rather than as the Product Owner? One outsourcing shop that I worked with a while back had the product owner
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 26, 2008
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          Is it possible that they see you as a stakeholder rather than as the Product Owner?  One outsourcing shop that I worked with a while back had the product owner role within their company and treated the client representative as a stakeholder (KEY stakeholder) instead.  This happened where one scrum team was dealing with a backlog that contained user stories from more than one client. The product owner prioritized the work for the team based on business and technical value to their company (and to the client stakeholder based on discussions), as well as expectations of when the team would actually receive stakeholder feedback from different clients on different stories.

          In that case, the Product Owner met with the stakeholders to discuss needs, feedback, prioritization... But the only team meeting that the stakeholder was invited to attend (typically) was the sprint demo.  Are they demonstrating to you at the end of each sprint?

          -elizabeth

          > I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
          > our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
          > project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
          > Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
          > educating myself on Scrum.
          >
          > I have the responsibility to ensure that the system meets requirements
          > and that the final product is a system that is maintainable and one
          > that can grow with the changing needs of the business.
          >
          > I am the Product Owner. I have given the folks in Mexico a
          > Waterfall-ish requirements document and the Product Backlog containing
          > the user stories.
          >
          > I'm concerned because the outsourcing firm has shown little interest
          > in getting to know our business model. I have received no questions
          > or feedback on the documents that I gave them. They have indicated
          > that although I am the Product Owner, I will not be involved in the
          > Sprint Planning meeting, the Sprint Review nor will I be invited to
          > the daily Scrums.
          >
          > I thought Scrum called for more communication, not less. I thought
          > Scrum called for a Team that possessed a strong business knowledge.
          >
          > Our first Sprint is scheduled to start on Monday. I'm really at a
          > loss as to how to continue. It seems obvious to me that they are
          > clueless but being new to Scrum I'm not so sure.
          >
          > All comments are welcome. Thanks in advance for your input.
          >
          > Bill

          >

        • James S. Fosdick, PMP, CSP
          ... Hmmmmm...sounds fishy to me. Either they aren t actually doing Scrum and are simply using the Scrum term as a smoke screen behind which they can do
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 26, 2008
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            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "wfc_85283"

            > I have received no questions or feedback
            > on the documents that I gave them. They
            > have indicated that although I am the Product
            > Owner, I will not be involved in the Sprint
            > Planning meeting, the Sprint Review nor will I
            > be invited to the daily Scrums.

            Hmmmmm...sounds fishy to me. Either they aren't actually doing Scrum
            and are simply using the "Scrum" term as a smoke screen behind which
            they can do cowboy coding with no oversight or they have a very poor
            understanding of Scrum. Sprint Planning REQUIRES the presence of the
            product owner. Same with the Sprint Review. Different teams feel
            differently about inviting "chickens" to the Daily Scrum (usually
            because of organizational dysfunction).

            > I thought Scrum called for more communication, not less.

            Agile methods in general require intense collaboration consider
            "customer collaboration over contract negotiation" from the agile
            manifesto. That's a pretty unambiguous statement that communication is
            key.

            > I thought Scrum called for a Team
            > that possessed a strong business knowledge.

            I would say not. Scrum calls for a role, called product owner, whose
            responsibility it is to translate business knowledge into backlog items.

            > Our first Sprint is scheduled to start on Monday. I'm really at a
            > loss as to how to continue. It seems obvious to me that they are
            > clueless but being new to Scrum I'm not so sure.

            I can say with absolute certainty that IF you are the product owner
            AND they have said you aren't invited to Sprint Planning or Review
            than they are either clueless or playing some kind of game with you.
            Your first objective should be to figure out which situation is
            occurring. Ask them some questions like how long are their sprints,
            what is their velocity, how do they estimate backlog items. If they're
            bluffing they probably won't even be able to answer those simple
            questions. If they can then I would get into finer points like how can
            they make a sprint commitment and establish a sprint goal without the
            product owner present in sprint planning (that is one of the few hard
            and fast rules in Scrum).

            You might also consider A)bringing in a Scrum coach for a couple days
            to help you or B)attending a CSPO (Certfied Scrum Product Owner) class.
          • wfc_85283
            I was told by the Scrum Master that I was the Product Owner. However, in the Sprint Planning meeting, the Scrum Master would act as proxy Product Owner.
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 26, 2008
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              I was told by the Scrum Master that I was the Product Owner. However,
              in the Sprint Planning meeting, the Scrum Master would act as "proxy"
              Product Owner.

              Thank you for your input.
            • wfc_85283
              Thanks for your input. I just wanted to make sure that my suspicions were accurate.
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 26, 2008
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                Thanks for your input. I just wanted to make sure that my suspicions
                were accurate.
              • wfc_85283
                ... Thanks. I ve got the book and I refer to it often.
                Message 7 of 25 , Sep 26, 2008
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                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Ward" <scrummaster@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "wfc_85283" <garvinpromo@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
                  > > our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
                  > > project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
                  > > Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
                  > > educating myself on Scrum.
                  > >
                  > > I have the responsibility to ensure that the system meets requirements
                  > > and that the final product is a system that is maintainable and one
                  > > that can grow with the changing needs of the business.
                  > >
                  > > I am the Product Owner. I have given the folks in Mexico a
                  > > Waterfall-ish requirements document and the Product Backlog containing
                  > > the user stories.
                  > >
                  > > I'm concerned because the outsourcing firm has shown little interest
                  > > in getting to know our business model. I have received no questions
                  > > or feedback on the documents that I gave them. They have indicated
                  > > that although I am the Product Owner, I will not be involved in the
                  > > Sprint Planning meeting, the Sprint Review nor will I be invited to
                  > > the daily Scrums.
                  > >
                  > > I thought Scrum called for more communication, not less. I thought
                  > > Scrum called for a Team that possessed a strong business knowledge.
                  > >
                  > > Our first Sprint is scheduled to start on Monday. I'm really at a
                  > > loss as to how to continue. It seems obvious to me that they are
                  > > clueless but being new to Scrum I'm not so sure.
                  > >
                  > > All comments are welcome. Thanks in advance for your input.
                  > >
                  > > Bill
                  > >
                  > Hi Bill,
                  >
                  > Sounds like you are in for a challenging 'Sprint'. I think that you
                  > might be best to find out who the 'ScrumMaster' is and have a
                  > discussion with him regarding the Scrum framework and the
                  > responsibilities of the Roles within Scrum. As a Product Owner you are
                  > the one responsible for the Product Backlog and the prioritization of
                  > the items within the backlog. as a start you might want to read Ken
                  > Schwaber's book ' Agile Project Management with Scrum' especially the
                  > Appendix A beginning on 133 to give you insight into the roles and
                  > rules.
                  >
                  > Best of luck, if you have any further questions feel free to contact
                  > me with them.
                  >
                  > Best regards,
                  > Ken Ward
                  >

                  Thanks. I've got the book and I refer to it often.
                • George Dinwiddie
                  ... How often are they to deliver working code to you? Do you have access to the contract to see what they are obligated to do? It may well be that their
                  Message 8 of 25 , Sep 26, 2008
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                    wfc_85283 wrote:
                    > I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
                    > our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
                    > project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
                    > Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
                    > educating myself on Scrum.

                    How often are they to deliver working code to you?

                    Do you have access to the contract to see what they are obligated to do?
                    It may well be that their mention of Scrum has nothing to do with
                    their relationship with their clients.

                    - George

                    --
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                    Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                    Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  • Doug McQuilken
                    Hmmm............. if there is no transparency how would you know whether they utilized scrum methodology? Regards, Doug ... From: George Dinwiddie
                    Message 9 of 25 , Sep 27, 2008
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                      Hmmm............. if there is no transparency how would you know whether they utilized scrum methodology?

                      Regards,
                      Doug

                      --- On Sat, 9/27/08, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
                      From: George Dinwiddie <lists@...>
                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Outsource Scrum
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Saturday, September 27, 2008, 12:06 AM

                      wfc_85283 wrote:
                      > I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
                      > our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
                      > project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
                      > Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
                      > educating myself on Scrum.

                      How often are they to deliver working code to you?

                      Do you have access to the contract to see what they are obligated to do?
                      It may well be that their mention of Scrum has nothing to do with
                      their relationship with their clients.

                      - George

                      --
                      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                      * George Dinwiddie * http://blog. gdinwiddie. com
                      Software Development http://www.idiacomp uting.com
                      Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemar yland.org
                      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                    • Tim Walker
                      What possible reason would they have for excluding you from the scrums? When the contract with the outsourcing company was drafted was this communication path
                      Message 10 of 25 , Sep 27, 2008
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                        What possible reason would they have for excluding you from the
                        scrums? When the contract with the outsourcing company was drafted was
                        this communication path clearly stated?

                        Best regards and best luck with your projects.

                        Sincerely,

                        Tim

                        On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 7:38 AM, Doug McQuilken <dougmcq000@...> wrote:
                        > Hmmm............. if there is no transparency how would you know whether
                        > they utilized scrum methodology?
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        > Doug
                        >
                        > --- On Sat, 9/27/08, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: George Dinwiddie <lists@...>
                        > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Outsource Scrum
                        > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Saturday, September 27, 2008, 12:06 AM
                        >
                        > wfc_85283 wrote:
                        >> I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
                        >> our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
                        >> project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
                        >> Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
                        >> educating myself on Scrum.
                        >
                        > How often are they to deliver working code to you?
                        >
                        > Do you have access to the contract to see what they are obligated to do?
                        > It may well be that their mention of Scrum has nothing to do with
                        > their relationship with their clients.
                        >
                        > - George
                        >
                        > --
                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                        > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog. gdinwiddie. com
                        > Software Development http://www.idiacomp uting.com
                        > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemar yland.org
                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                        >
                        >
                      • Bill Campbell
                        No code yet, we are just starting. The first Sprint was supposed to begin yesterday. Unfortunately I have not seen the contract. Thanks. On Fri, Sep 26, 2008
                        Message 11 of 25 , Sep 30, 2008
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                          No code yet, we are just starting.  The first Sprint was supposed to begin yesterday.  Unfortunately I have not seen the contract.

                          Thanks.

                          On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 9:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

                          wfc_85283 wrote:
                          > I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
                          > our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
                          > project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
                          > Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
                          > educating myself on Scrum.

                          How often are they to deliver working code to you?

                          Do you have access to the contract to see what they are obligated to do?
                          It may well be that their mention of Scrum has nothing to do with
                          their relationship with their clients.

                          - George

                          --
                          ----------------------------------------------------------
                          * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                          Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                          Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                          ----------------------------------------------------------


                        • Bill Campbell
                          Good question. Unfortunately I have not seen the contract. Thanks.
                          Message 12 of 25 , Sep 30, 2008
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                            Good question.  Unfortunately I have not seen the contract.

                            Thanks.

                            On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 7:53 AM, Tim Walker <walketim@...> wrote:

                            What possible reason would they have for excluding you from the
                            scrums? When the contract with the outsourcing company was drafted was
                            this communication path clearly stated?

                            Best regards and best luck with your projects.

                            Sincerely,

                            Tim



                            On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 7:38 AM, Doug McQuilken <dougmcq000@...> wrote:
                            > Hmmm............. if there is no transparency how would you know whether
                            > they utilized scrum methodology?
                            >
                            > Regards,
                            > Doug
                            >
                            > --- On Sat, 9/27/08, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > From: George Dinwiddie <lists@...>
                            > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Outsource Scrum
                            > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Saturday, September 27, 2008, 12:06 AM
                            >
                            > wfc_85283 wrote:
                            >> I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
                            >> our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
                            >> project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
                            >> Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
                            >> educating myself on Scrum.
                            >
                            > How often are they to deliver working code to you?
                            >
                            > Do you have access to the contract to see what they are obligated to do?
                            > It may well be that their mention of Scrum has nothing to do with
                            > their relationship with their clients.
                            >
                            > - George
                            >
                            > --
                            > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                            > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog. gdinwiddie. com
                            > Software Development http://www.idiacomp uting.com
                            > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemar yland.org
                            > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                            >
                            >

                          • Bill Campbell
                            I agree, it doesn t sound like Scum to me either. Being new to Scrum I thought maybe I was missing something, Thanks.
                            Message 13 of 25 , Sep 30, 2008
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                              I agree, it doesn't sound like Scum to me either.  Being new to Scrum I thought maybe I was missing something,

                              Thanks.

                              On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 6:38 AM, Doug McQuilken <dougmcq000@...> wrote:

                              Hmmm............. if there is no transparency how would you know whether they utilized scrum methodology?

                              Regards,
                              Doug

                              --- On Sat, 9/27/08, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
                              From: George Dinwiddie <lists@...>
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Outsource Scrum
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Saturday, September 27, 2008, 12:06 AM

                              wfc_85283 wrote:
                              > I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
                              > our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
                              > project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
                              > Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
                              > educating myself on Scrum.

                              How often are they to deliver working code to you?

                              Do you have access to the contract to see what they are obligated to do?
                              It may well be that their mention of Scrum has nothing to do with
                              their relationship with their clients.

                              - George

                              --
                              ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                              * George Dinwiddie * http://blog. gdinwiddie. com
                              Software Development http://www.idiacomp uting.com
                              Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemar yland.org
                              ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -


                            • caike
                              Gavin, I guess the only time the Scrum Master should act as a proxy PO would be *during *the sprint, by not letting any external influences interfere with the
                              Message 14 of 25 , Sep 30, 2008
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                                Gavin,

                                I guess the only time the Scrum Master should act as a proxy PO would be during the sprint, by not letting any external influences interfere with the team.

                                I don´t think inviting the PO for the Daily Scrums is also a good idea, since he may be tempted to interfere.

                                Besides that, your participation as the PO on the other meetings is a key-element to the success of Scrum.


                                On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 6:13 PM, wfc_85283 <garvinpromo@...> wrote:

                                I was told by the Scrum Master that I was the Product Owner. However,
                                in the Sprint Planning meeting, the Scrum Master would act as "proxy"
                                Product Owner.

                                Thank you for your input.




                                --
                                att,
                                - caike

                              • Ron Jeffries
                                Hello, caike. On Tuesday, September 30, 2008, at 4:18:47 PM, you ... To me it seems ludicrous to exclude the PO at any time. They know things only they know;
                                Message 15 of 25 , Sep 30, 2008
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                                  Hello, caike. On Tuesday, September 30, 2008, at 4:18:47 PM, you
                                  wrote:

                                  > I guess the only time the Scrum Master should act as a proxy PO
                                  > would be *during the sprint*, by not letting any external
                                  > influences interfere with the team.

                                  > I don´t think inviting the PO for the Daily Scrums is also a good idea,
                                  > since he may be tempted to interfere.

                                  > Besides that, your participation as the PO on the other meetings is a
                                  > key-element to the success of Scrum.

                                  To me it seems ludicrous to exclude the PO at any time. They know
                                  things only they know; they hold the keys to the projects success;
                                  they are likely the single most powerful person on the project; they
                                  can probably get it cancelled if they want to.

                                  If I were the PO and I were excluded, I would terminate the project.
                                  I'm that kind of guy.

                                  Ron Jeffries
                                  www.XProgramming.com
                                  www.xprogramming.com/blog
                                  If not now, when? -- The Talmud
                                • Dan Rawsthorne
                                  So would I, Ron. The PO is the single wringable neck and leaving him/her out of anything is just bad behavior. Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST Senior Coach, Danube
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Sep 30, 2008
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                                    So would I, Ron. The PO is the "single wringable neck" and leaving
                                    him/her out of anything is just bad behavior.

                                    Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST
                                    Senior Coach, Danube Technologies
                                    dan@..., 425-269-8628



                                    Ron Jeffries wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello, caike. On Tuesday, September 30, 2008, at 4:18:47 PM, you
                                    > wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > I guess the only time the Scrum Master should act as a proxy PO
                                    > > would be *during the sprint*, by not letting any external
                                    > > influences interfere with the team.
                                    >
                                    > > I don´t think inviting the PO for the Daily Scrums is also a good idea,
                                    > > since he may be tempted to interfere.
                                    >
                                    > > Besides that, your participation as the PO on the other meetings is a
                                    > > key-element to the success of Scrum.
                                    >
                                    > To me it seems ludicrous to exclude the PO at any time. They know
                                    > things only they know; they hold the keys to the projects success;
                                    > they are likely the single most powerful person on the project; they
                                    > can probably get it cancelled if they want to.
                                    >
                                    > If I were the PO and I were excluded, I would terminate the project.
                                    > I'm that kind of guy.
                                    >
                                    > Ron Jeffries
                                    > www.XProgramming.com
                                    > www.xprogramming.com/blog
                                    > If not now, when? -- The Talmud
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Mike Vizdos
                                    Time for you to hop on a plane? Thank you, - Mike Vizdos Vizdos Enterprises, LLC Contact Information Web: www.implementingscrum.com www.michaelvizdos.com
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Sep 30, 2008
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                                      Time for you to hop on a plane?

                                      Thank you,

                                      - Mike Vizdos
                                        Vizdos Enterprises, LLC
                                        
                                       Contact Information

                                                Web:      www.implementingscrum.com
                                                                www.michaelvizdos.com

                                        AOL IM:  MikeV Work
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                                                Fax:         +1 425-675-7296

                                      PS: Come to one of my workshops.  Visit michaelvizdos.com/enroll.

                                      PPS: Visit implementingscrum.com/subscribe.  Receive 2 FREE videos.

                                      On Sep 26, 2008, at 2:25 PM, wfc_85283 wrote:

                                      I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
                                      our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
                                      project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
                                      Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
                                      educating myself on Scrum.

                                      I have the responsibility to ensure that the system meets requirements
                                      and that the final product is a system that is maintainable and one
                                      that can grow with the changing needs of the business.

                                      I am the Product Owner. I have given the folks in Mexico a
                                      Waterfall-ish requirements document and the Product Backlog containing
                                      the user stories. 

                                      I'm concerned because the outsourcing firm has shown little interest
                                      in getting to know our business model. I have received no questions
                                      or feedback on the documents that I gave them. They have indicated
                                      that although I am the Product Owner, I will not be involved in the
                                      Sprint Planning meeting, the Sprint Review nor will I be invited to
                                      the daily Scrums.

                                      I thought Scrum called for more communication, not less. I thought
                                      Scrum called for a Team that possessed a strong business knowledge.

                                      Our first Sprint is scheduled to start on Monday. I'm really at a
                                      loss as to how to continue. It seems obvious to me that they are
                                      clueless but being new to Scrum I'm not so sure.

                                      All comments are welcome. Thanks in advance for your input.

                                      Bill


                                    • Joseph Little
                                      Hi, As others are telling you, the outsource firm has misunderstood Scrum. This is common (all the reasons why would take too long to tell). Assume positive
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Oct 1, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi,

                                        As others are telling you, the outsource firm has misunderstood Scrum.
                                        This is common (all the reasons why would take too long to tell).

                                        Assume positive intent on their part. And tell 'em all those folks on
                                        ScrumDev said the way to play is that the PO plays with the Team.
                                        Show 'em the book, etc.

                                        Action items:
                                        1. Talk to your CEO. Get him/her prepared that if they don't change
                                        their minds, this is too stupid a situation.
                                        2. Get on a plane and visit them (see Mike Vizdos' suggestion
                                        earlier). Talk face to face.

                                        Then inspect and adapt.

                                        It is likely you will be forced to make a tough decision: do I stay
                                        (in this broken relationship) or do I go? It will improve
                                        somewhat...but how much?? Enough?? Fast enough??

                                        Talk to them about why they DON'T want you around. Talk to them about
                                        why you WANT to be around. Show some consideration for their views,
                                        but, if you have the time to play (and meet other criteria of a PO)
                                        than you basically are right.

                                        On their side, one underlying reason (typically) is they don't want to
                                        show you their imperfections. (And maybe you don't want to show
                                        yours?!?!) Anyway, it's a normal human feeling; give 'em a way to
                                        adjust into that.

                                        Note: Listen for the meaning beneath their words.

                                        On their side, it is also pretty likely that someone, somewhere in the
                                        past, had a relationship with a client where their "approach" seemed
                                        the best solution. Just because it's dumb does not mean it wasn't "the
                                        best of all possible worlds" at that time. Maybe 3 years ago with a
                                        different client...who knows.

                                        PO: an easy job, right? (By which I partly mean that it is
                                        extraordinarily normal for the Team not to know how to play with the
                                        PO at first, and vice versa.)

                                        Best regards, Joe



                                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "wfc_85283" <garvinpromo@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
                                        > our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
                                        > project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
                                        > Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
                                        > educating myself on Scrum.
                                        >
                                        > I have the responsibility to ensure that the system meets requirements
                                        > and that the final product is a system that is maintainable and one
                                        > that can grow with the changing needs of the business.
                                        >
                                        > I am the Product Owner. I have given the folks in Mexico a
                                        > Waterfall-ish requirements document and the Product Backlog containing
                                        > the user stories.
                                        >
                                        > I'm concerned because the outsourcing firm has shown little interest
                                        > in getting to know our business model. I have received no questions
                                        > or feedback on the documents that I gave them. They have indicated
                                        > that although I am the Product Owner, I will not be involved in the
                                        > Sprint Planning meeting, the Sprint Review nor will I be invited to
                                        > the daily Scrums.
                                        >
                                        > I thought Scrum called for more communication, not less. I thought
                                        > Scrum called for a Team that possessed a strong business knowledge.
                                        >
                                        > Our first Sprint is scheduled to start on Monday. I'm really at a
                                        > loss as to how to continue. It seems obvious to me that they are
                                        > clueless but being new to Scrum I'm not so sure.
                                        >
                                        > All comments are welcome. Thanks in advance for your input.
                                        >
                                        > Bill
                                        >
                                      • woynam
                                        Actually, it does sound like Scum(tm). :-) Scum(tm) should not be confused with Scrum, however. Scum(tm) was invented by ol PMBOK types to confuse people. You
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Oct 1, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Actually, it does sound like Scum(tm). :-) Scum(tm) should not be
                                          confused with Scrum, however.

                                          Scum(tm) was invented by 'ol PMBOK types to confuse people. You really
                                          do need to see the contract to determine if it says the team would use
                                          Scum(tm) or Scrum.

                                          In Scum(tm), PO doesn't stand for Product Owner. It stands for P*ss Off.

                                          Mark

                                          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Campbell"
                                          <garvinpromo@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I agree, it doesn't sound like Scum to me either. Being new to Scrum I
                                          > thought maybe I was missing something,
                                          >
                                          > Thanks.
                                          >
                                          > On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 6:38 AM, Doug McQuilken <dougmcq000@...>wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Hmmm............. if there is no transparency how would you know
                                          whether
                                          > > they utilized scrum methodology?
                                          > >
                                          > > Regards,
                                          > > Doug
                                          > >
                                          > > --- On *Sat, 9/27/08, George Dinwiddie <lists@...>* wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > From: George Dinwiddie <lists@...>
                                          > > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Outsource Scrum
                                          > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Date: Saturday, September 27, 2008, 12:06 AM
                                          > >
                                          > > wfc_85283 wrote:
                                          > > > I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner
                                          contracted
                                          > > > our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
                                          > > > project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop
                                          using the
                                          > > > Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
                                          > > > educating myself on Scrum.
                                          > >
                                          > > How often are they to deliver working code to you?
                                          > >
                                          > > Do you have access to the contract to see what they are obligated
                                          to do?
                                          > > It may well be that their mention of Scrum has nothing to do with
                                          > > their relationship with their clients.
                                          > >
                                          > > - George
                                          > >
                                          > > --
                                          > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                          > > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog. gdinwiddie.
                                          com<http://blog.gdinwiddie.com>
                                          > > Software Development http://www.idiacomp
                                          uting.com<http://www.idiacomputing.com>
                                          > > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemar
                                          yland.org<http://www.agilemaryland.org>
                                          > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • davidwebb000
                                          Having been a consumer and a provider of nearshore agile development services I usually recommend the product owner gets in front of the development team at
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Oct 2, 2008
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                                            Having been a consumer and a provider of nearshore agile development services I
                                            usually recommend the product owner gets in front of the development team at least one
                                            week in 12. A well performing agile development team can produce a lot of code that is
                                            not required without the constant steering of the product owner. That is very difficult to do
                                            when the PO does not have a rapport with the team. I have always found in these
                                            circumstances that for your $2k of travel you get a great return on your investment.
                                            Regards
                                            David
                                            www.exigenservices.com
                                            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Mike Vizdos <mvizdos@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Time for you to hop on a plane?
                                            >
                                            > Thank you,
                                            >
                                            > - Mike Vizdos
                                            > Vizdos Enterprises, LLC
                                            >
                                            > Contact Information
                                            >
                                            > Web: www.implementingscrum.com
                                            > www.michaelvizdos.com
                                            >
                                            > AOL IM: MikeV Work
                                            > Twitter: mvizdos
                                            > Skype: mvizdos
                                            > Phone: +1 619-709-1716
                                            > Fax: +1 425-675-7296
                                            >
                                            > PS: Come to one of my workshops. Visit michaelvizdos.com/enroll.
                                            >
                                            > PPS: Visit implementingscrum.com/subscribe. Receive 2 FREE videos.
                                            >
                                            > On Sep 26, 2008, at 2:25 PM, wfc_85283 wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
                                            > > our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
                                            > > project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
                                            > > Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
                                            > > educating myself on Scrum.
                                            > >
                                            > > I have the responsibility to ensure that the system meets requirements
                                            > > and that the final product is a system that is maintainable and one
                                            > > that can grow with the changing needs of the business.
                                            > >
                                            > > I am the Product Owner. I have given the folks in Mexico a
                                            > > Waterfall-ish requirements document and the Product Backlog containing
                                            > > the user stories.
                                            > >
                                            > > I'm concerned because the outsourcing firm has shown little interest
                                            > > in getting to know our business model. I have received no questions
                                            > > or feedback on the documents that I gave them. They have indicated
                                            > > that although I am the Product Owner, I will not be involved in the
                                            > > Sprint Planning meeting, the Sprint Review nor will I be invited to
                                            > > the daily Scrums.
                                            > >
                                            > > I thought Scrum called for more communication, not less. I thought
                                            > > Scrum called for a Team that possessed a strong business knowledge.
                                            > >
                                            > > Our first Sprint is scheduled to start on Monday. I'm really at a
                                            > > loss as to how to continue. It seems obvious to me that they are
                                            > > clueless but being new to Scrum I'm not so sure.
                                            > >
                                            > > All comments are welcome. Thanks in advance for your input.
                                            > >
                                            > > Bill
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • mike.dwyer1@comcast.net
                                            I find this to be hard to fathom A well performing agile development team can produce a lot of code that is not required without the constant steering of the
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Oct 3, 2008
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                                              I find this to be hard to fathom
                                              "A well performing agile development team can produce a lot of code that is not required without the constant steering of the product owner."
                                              First if the product owner is not a part of the team how do they know what done is. Second any team that is good at scrum stops building and goes surfing once they have built to the PO definition of DONE.
                                              You might reconsider their level of skill and self discipline.

                                              Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T


                                              From: "davidwebb000" <david.webb@...>
                                              Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 07:42:19 -0000
                                              To: <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Outsource Scrum

                                              Having been a consumer and a provider of nearshore agile development services I
                                              usually recommend the product owner gets in front of the development team at least one
                                              week in 12. A well performing agile development team can produce a lot of code that is
                                              not required without the constant steering of the product owner. That is very difficult to do
                                              when the PO does not have a rapport with the team. I have always found in these
                                              circumstances that for your $2k of travel you get a great return on your investment.
                                              Regards
                                              David
                                              www.exigenservices. com

                                              --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Mike Vizdos <mvizdos@... > wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Time for you to hop on a plane?
                                              >
                                              > Thank you,
                                              >
                                              > - Mike Vizdos
                                              > Vizdos Enterprises, LLC
                                              >
                                              > Contact Information
                                              >
                                              > Web: www.implementingscr um.com
                                              > www.michaelvizdos. com
                                              >
                                              > AOL IM: MikeV Work
                                              > Twitter: mvizdos
                                              > Skype: mvizdos
                                              > Phone: +1 619-709-1716
                                              > Fax: +1 425-675-7296
                                              >
                                              > PS: Come to one of my workshops. Visit michaelvizdos. com/enroll.
                                              >
                                              > PPS: Visit implementingscrum. com/subscribe. Receive 2 FREE videos.
                                              >
                                              > On Sep 26, 2008, at 2:25 PM, wfc_85283 wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
                                              > > our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
                                              > > project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
                                              > > Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
                                              > > educating myself on Scrum.
                                              > >
                                              > > I have the responsibility to ensure that the system meets requirements
                                              > > and that the final product is a system that is maintainable and one
                                              > > that can grow with the changing needs of the business.
                                              > >
                                              > > I am the Product Owner. I have given the folks in Mexico a
                                              > > Waterfall-ish requirements document and the Product Backlog containing
                                              > > the user stories.
                                              > >
                                              > > I'm concerned because the outsourcing firm has shown little interest
                                              > > in getting to know our business model. I have received no questions
                                              > > or feedback on the documents that I gave them. They have indicated
                                              > > that although I am the Product Owner, I will not be involved in the
                                              > > Sprint Planning meeting, the Sprint Review nor will I be invited to
                                              > > the daily Scrums.
                                              > >
                                              > > I thought Scrum called for more communication, not less. I thought
                                              > > Scrum called for a Team that possessed a strong business knowledge.
                                              > >
                                              > > Our first Sprint is scheduled to start on Monday. I'm really at a
                                              > > loss as to how to continue. It seems obvious to me that they are
                                              > > clueless but being new to Scrum I'm not so sure.
                                              > >
                                              > > All comments are welcome. Thanks in advance for your input.
                                              > >
                                              > > Bill
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >

                                            • andybrandt_dot_net
                                              Bill! Lots of good advice here already, but I feel I can contribute to the discussion as I run a company that delivers Scrum-based software development
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Oct 6, 2008
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                                                Bill!

                                                Lots of good advice here already, but I feel I can contribute to the
                                                discussion as I run a company that delivers Scrum-based software
                                                development services, so I see it from your Mexican partner's POV.
                                                Now, what they do is clearly wrong. You as a PO should be much more
                                                involved. You should be at least on Sprint Planning and Review, you
                                                should have access to the sprint and project backlogs, be able to
                                                inspect burndown and talk to the team whenever there is a need. Them
                                                not coming back with questions is especially worrying.

                                                It would be advisable if you would also have access to some kind of
                                                test system where you could follow what is being built.

                                                Now, all this is of course more difficult when working over a
                                                distance. We have the same problem with our clients - we meet with
                                                them sometimes, but normally we have to use technology to ensure their
                                                adequate engagement in the project. So we came up with a standard set
                                                of tools we give our clients to encourage them to be as much involved
                                                as possible.

                                                That includes:
                                                - access to project code repository – clients can view or download the
                                                repository at any moment,
                                                - access to project bug tracking & Wiki pages,
                                                - access to test system – it is the working version of the system
                                                under development with test data, automatically updated from the
                                                repository many times a day.
                                                - access Scrum tracking software – project backlog, sprint backlog,
                                                tasks, burndown are kept there, client is encourage to manage project
                                                backlog himself,
                                                - a Skype based project chat up at all times with whole team on,
                                                - ideally listening in to Daily Scrum + short discussion after if
                                                there are any points to be covered.

                                                All of this is implementable, especially as this project is only
                                                beginning. You should insist that your Mexican partner provides at
                                                least the level of openness and communication I'm writing about. As
                                                things stand now best you can do is fly there and try to get all I
                                                suggest above. And get to know those people - it really helps if you
                                                explain them face to face what you want and why you want it. I'm sure
                                                they want the project to be a success - their livelihood depends on it.

                                                Best regards,
                                                Andy Brandt

                                                Code Sprinters



                                                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "wfc_85283" <garvinpromo@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
                                                > our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
                                                > project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
                                                > Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
                                                > educating myself on Scrum.
                                                >
                                                > I have the responsibility to ensure that the system meets requirements
                                                > and that the final product is a system that is maintainable and one
                                                > that can grow with the changing needs of the business.
                                                >
                                                > I am the Product Owner. I have given the folks in Mexico a
                                                > Waterfall-ish requirements document and the Product Backlog containing
                                                > the user stories.
                                                >
                                                > I'm concerned because the outsourcing firm has shown little interest
                                                > in getting to know our business model. I have received no questions
                                                > or feedback on the documents that I gave them. They have indicated
                                                > that although I am the Product Owner, I will not be involved in the
                                                > Sprint Planning meeting, the Sprint Review nor will I be invited to
                                                > the daily Scrums.
                                                >
                                                > I thought Scrum called for more communication, not less. I thought
                                                > Scrum called for a Team that possessed a strong business knowledge.
                                                >
                                                > Our first Sprint is scheduled to start on Monday. I'm really at a
                                                > loss as to how to continue. It seems obvious to me that they are
                                                > clueless but being new to Scrum I'm not so sure.
                                                >
                                                > All comments are welcome. Thanks in advance for your input.
                                                >
                                                > Bill
                                                >
                                              • chuckspublicprofile
                                                Bill, one more vote that you re on the right track. Get down there to Mexico and find out for yourself. Doing anything else is a disaster waiting to happen,
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Oct 6, 2008
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Bill, one more vote that you're on the right track.

                                                  Get down there to Mexico and find out for yourself. Doing anything
                                                  else is a disaster waiting to happen, IMO. I also like the "hire a
                                                  coach" for a couple of days suggestion.

                                                  Due to your recent introduction to Scrum, please feel free to use this
                                                  list as a resource to continue to investigate your issue.

                                                  Charles Bradley
                                                  CSM



                                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "andybrandt_dot_net"
                                                  <andy@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Bill!
                                                  >
                                                  > Lots of good advice here already, but I feel I can contribute to the
                                                  > discussion as I run a company that delivers Scrum-based software
                                                  > development services, so I see it from your Mexican partner's POV.
                                                  > Now, what they do is clearly wrong. You as a PO should be much more
                                                  > involved. You should be at least on Sprint Planning and Review, you
                                                  > should have access to the sprint and project backlogs, be able to
                                                  > inspect burndown and talk to the team whenever there is a need. Them
                                                  > not coming back with questions is especially worrying.
                                                  >
                                                  > It would be advisable if you would also have access to some kind of
                                                  > test system where you could follow what is being built.
                                                  >
                                                  > Now, all this is of course more difficult when working over a
                                                  > distance. We have the same problem with our clients - we meet with
                                                  > them sometimes, but normally we have to use technology to ensure their
                                                  > adequate engagement in the project. So we came up with a standard set
                                                  > of tools we give our clients to encourage them to be as much involved
                                                  > as possible.
                                                  >
                                                  > That includes:
                                                  > - access to project code repository – clients can view or download the
                                                  > repository at any moment,
                                                  > - access to project bug tracking & Wiki pages,
                                                  > - access to test system – it is the working version of the system
                                                  > under development with test data, automatically updated from the
                                                  > repository many times a day.
                                                  > - access Scrum tracking software – project backlog, sprint backlog,
                                                  > tasks, burndown are kept there, client is encourage to manage project
                                                  > backlog himself,
                                                  > - a Skype based project chat up at all times with whole team on,
                                                  > - ideally listening in to Daily Scrum + short discussion after if
                                                  > there are any points to be covered.
                                                  >
                                                  > All of this is implementable, especially as this project is only
                                                  > beginning. You should insist that your Mexican partner provides at
                                                  > least the level of openness and communication I'm writing about. As
                                                  > things stand now best you can do is fly there and try to get all I
                                                  > suggest above. And get to know those people - it really helps if you
                                                  > explain them face to face what you want and why you want it. I'm sure
                                                  > they want the project to be a success - their livelihood depends on it.
                                                  >
                                                  > Best regards,
                                                  > Andy Brandt
                                                  >
                                                  > Code Sprinters
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "wfc_85283" <garvinpromo@>
                                                  > wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I work for a small company. Prior to my arrival, the owner contracted
                                                  > > our development to a company in Mexico. I was hired to manage the
                                                  > > project. The outfit in Mexico informed me that they develop using the
                                                  > > Scrum framework. I am new to Scrum, I've spent the last 4 weeks
                                                  > > educating myself on Scrum.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I have the responsibility to ensure that the system meets requirements
                                                  > > and that the final product is a system that is maintainable and one
                                                  > > that can grow with the changing needs of the business.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I am the Product Owner. I have given the folks in Mexico a
                                                  > > Waterfall-ish requirements document and the Product Backlog containing
                                                  > > the user stories.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I'm concerned because the outsourcing firm has shown little interest
                                                  > > in getting to know our business model. I have received no questions
                                                  > > or feedback on the documents that I gave them. They have indicated
                                                  > > that although I am the Product Owner, I will not be involved in the
                                                  > > Sprint Planning meeting, the Sprint Review nor will I be invited to
                                                  > > the daily Scrums.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I thought Scrum called for more communication, not less. I thought
                                                  > > Scrum called for a Team that possessed a strong business knowledge.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Our first Sprint is scheduled to start on Monday. I'm really at a
                                                  > > loss as to how to continue. It seems obvious to me that they are
                                                  > > clueless but being new to Scrum I'm not so sure.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > All comments are welcome. Thanks in advance for your input.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Bill
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                • Vance, Terrie
                                                  I would like to know how Configuration Management fits into Scrum Development. I am tracking what backlog task are being worked on, what task are complete,
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Oct 7, 2008
                                                  • 0 Attachment

                                                    I would like to know how Configuration Management fits into Scrum Development.  I am tracking what backlog task are being worked on, what task are complete, what task will be worked on in future iterations.

                                                     

                                                    I would also like to know how to handle defect corrections and change request.  My team feels that these are put on the backlog so they don't need to be identified in our CM Tool.

                                                     

                                                    Please help, I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle.  Our "Scrum Master" seems to think that CM does not have a place in Scrum Development.

                                                     

                                                     

                                                  • Mark Levison
                                                    Vance it might be best if you spun this question out into its own thread. Alot more people will read in that way. Cheers Mark Levison
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Oct 7, 2008
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Vance it might be best if you spun this question out into its own thread. Alot more people will read in that way.

                                                      Cheers
                                                      Mark Levison

                                                      On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Vance, Terrie <terrie.vance@...> wrote:

                                                      I would like to know how Configuration Management fits into Scrum Development.  I am tracking what backlog task are being worked on, what task are complete, what task will be worked on in future iterations.

                                                       

                                                      I would also like to know how to handle defect corrections and change request.  My team feels that these are put on the backlog so they don't need to be identified in our CM Tool.

                                                       

                                                      Please help, I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle.  Our "Scrum Master" seems to think that CM does not have a place in Scrum Development.

                                                       

                                                       


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