Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

Expand Messages
  • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
    I would say so. That s why we do empirical. David Roberts TRMS Technical Lead (619) 368-9621 ... From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@XProgramming.com] Sent:
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
    • 0 Attachment

      I would say so. That's why we do empirical.

       

      David Roberts

      TRMS Technical Lead

      (619) 368-9621

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
      Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 7:23 PM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

       

      On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 9:23:18 PM, Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13) wrote:

      > I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come
      > after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

      > I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave
      > thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves
      > thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

      Isn't that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even
      more often?

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      Anyone can make the simple complicated.
      Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus



      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



    • Claude Montpetit
      We just implemented a Scrum process and there are many stories that were added just for requirement analysis. This became necessary because the product is
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        We just implemented a Scrum process and there are many stories that
        were added just for requirement analysis. This became necessary
        because the product is already sold and installed at some customer
        locations (a server product). These customers have custom
        requirements that we do for them and they (generally) pay us. So we
        need to estimate the work required for it. Producing an estimate is
        therefore a story that must be prioritized. Once the estimate is
        completed and the quote sent to the customer, another story is created
        in the product backlog:

        Implement request X for customer Y based on estimate Z

        Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
        deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
        sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
        quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
        would in theory start very late:

        - month 1: submit the request
        - month 2: produce the estimate
        - month 3: implement the request

        This is not practical of course so we have been inserting estimates in
        the current sprint and informed the customer that he must decide in
        the current month whether he wants to go ahead or not if he wants it
        to be done in the next sprint.

        One of the strongest problem I had (and still have) implementing this
        process was to convince people outside of the development team
        (client, marketing, sales) that they should know about details of the
        products (bugs, certain improvements that look "too technical"...)

        Once the product backlog was transfered to "clients", and when I asked
        them to prioritize items, they thought that there was too many
        details. I then realized that they felt this way because they did not
        understand the product enough, and that the development team had been
        driving the product on their own since day one. Changing this around
        is a real challenge. For this reason, I am currently acting as both
        the Scrum master and the product owner until I can find someone
        outside the dev team that will take the product owner role and manage
        priorities.

        But overall, the implementation of a well defined process (Scrum) has
        been welcomed by the client/marketing/sales side as they know what we
        are working on now and they have control on what is next.

        -
        Claude Montpetit
        http://www.montpetit.net
      • Ron Jeffries
        ... The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you could just
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

          > Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
          > deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
          > sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
          > quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
          > would in theory start very late:

          The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
          hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you
          could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig / chicken rule
          in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer should be.

          On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that often
          things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
        • Mike Cohn
          If these are truly one or two at a time I handle them in the next morning s Daily Scrum. We ll do the Scrum meeting as normal then everyone will stay for a few
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            If these are truly one or two at a time I handle them in the next morning's
            Daily Scrum. We'll do the Scrum meeting as normal then everyone will stay
            for a few minutes and we'll estimate a story or two from the previous day or
            that came up early in the morning.

            We routinely also slip in an occasional one-hour estimating session in each
            sprint just to look outward at future stories. That will eventually stop but
            we're working through a large backlog of unestimated stories.

            --Mike Cohn
            Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
            www.userstories.com

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 6:04 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum and requirements (was Re: SCRUM
            process with other methodologies)

            On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

            > Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
            > deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
            > sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
            > quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
            > would in theory start very late:

            The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
            hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you
            could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig / chicken rule
            in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer should be.

            On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that often
            things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear



            To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Claude Montpetit
            Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to establish a fixed
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post
              were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to
              establish a fixed price bid for some requested product extensions.
              Because they are for fixed price extensions, these estimation
              requests become stories on their own as opposed to the rough estimates
              that we set on most stories that enter the backlog.

              (I have personnally never worked on a team that can produce such
              estimates at a rate of hundred per day... must be great though ;)

              Claude

              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
              <ronjeffries@X...> wrote:
              > On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:
              >
              >>Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
              >>deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
              >>sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
              >>quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
              >>would in theory start very late:
              >
              >The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
              >hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an
              estimate, you
              >could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig
              > / chicken rule in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer
              should be.
              >
              >On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that
              >often things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...
              >
              > Ron Jeffries
              > www.XProgramming.com
              > Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
            • Ron Jeffries
              ... Yes. If it s a whole product, that would take a half-day or a day. I m talking about story estimates. If the group is commonly called upon to do that, I
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 7, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 11:33:23 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                > Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post
                > were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to
                > establish a fixed price bid for some requested product extensions.
                > Because they are for fixed price extensions, these estimation
                > requests become stories on their own as opposed to the rough estimates
                > that we set on most stories that enter the backlog.

                > (I have personnally never worked on a team that can produce such
                > estimates at a rate of hundred per day... must be great though ;)

                Yes. If it's a whole product, that would take a half-day or a day. I'm
                talking about story estimates.

                If the group is commonly called upon to do that, I guess I'd just plan for
                it in the team's velocity.

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                Accroche toi a ton reve. --ELO
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.