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Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

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  • Ron Jeffries
    ... Isn t that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even more often? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Anyone can make the simple
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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      On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 9:23:18 PM, Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13) wrote:

      > I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come
      > after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

      > I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave
      > thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves
      > thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

      Isn't that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even
      more often?

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      Anyone can make the simple complicated.
      Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
    • Jens Ƙstergaard
      I ve used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want ... Basic ... Hi Michael I have had absolutely no problem using excel and find that it works vey
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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        I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
        > to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it).
        Basic
        > requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.
        >

        Hi Michael

        I have had absolutely no problem using excel and find that it works
        vey well. If a team needs additional material for coordination, they
        figure it out themselves.

        If you sign in and look under files, I have posted an example of a
        sprintlog that we use.

        Jens
      • Reginald Braithwaite-Lee
        ... Whenever possible, I like to use corkboards or whiteboards. I m considering using a projector and a dedicated PC on my next project for things that don t
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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          --- Mike Cohn <mike@...> wrote:
          > I have successfully used:
          >
          > --cards
          > --a wiki
          > --rows in Excel
          > --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a
          > record)

          Whenever possible, I like to use corkboards or whiteboards. I'm
          considering using a projector and a dedicated PC on my next project for
          things that don't work well on paper.

          http://www.braithwaite-lee.com/opinions/cork-board.html

          --
          Reginald Braithwaite-Lee
          http://www.braithwaite-lee.com

          "Even when my proposals are seen as significant improvements, they are
          often rejected on the grounds that they are not intuitive. It is a
          classic Catch-22: The client wants something that is significantly
          superior to the competition. But if it is to be superior, it must be
          different. (Typically, the greater the improvement, the greater the
          difference.) Therefore, it cannot be intuitive, that is, familiar. What
          the client wants is an interface with at most marginal differences from
          current practice... that, somehow, makes a major improvement." --Jef
          Raskin


          __________________________________
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        • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
          I would say so. That s why we do empirical. David Roberts TRMS Technical Lead (619) 368-9621 ... From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@XProgramming.com] Sent:
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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            I would say so. That's why we do empirical.

             

            David Roberts

            TRMS Technical Lead

            (619) 368-9621

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
            Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 7:23 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

             

            On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 9:23:18 PM, Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13) wrote:

            > I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come
            > after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

            > I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave
            > thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves
            > thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

            Isn't that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even
            more often?

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            Anyone can make the simple complicated.
            Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus



            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



          • Claude Montpetit
            We just implemented a Scrum process and there are many stories that were added just for requirement analysis. This became necessary because the product is
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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              We just implemented a Scrum process and there are many stories that
              were added just for requirement analysis. This became necessary
              because the product is already sold and installed at some customer
              locations (a server product). These customers have custom
              requirements that we do for them and they (generally) pay us. So we
              need to estimate the work required for it. Producing an estimate is
              therefore a story that must be prioritized. Once the estimate is
              completed and the quote sent to the customer, another story is created
              in the product backlog:

              Implement request X for customer Y based on estimate Z

              Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
              deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
              sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
              quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
              would in theory start very late:

              - month 1: submit the request
              - month 2: produce the estimate
              - month 3: implement the request

              This is not practical of course so we have been inserting estimates in
              the current sprint and informed the customer that he must decide in
              the current month whether he wants to go ahead or not if he wants it
              to be done in the next sprint.

              One of the strongest problem I had (and still have) implementing this
              process was to convince people outside of the development team
              (client, marketing, sales) that they should know about details of the
              products (bugs, certain improvements that look "too technical"...)

              Once the product backlog was transfered to "clients", and when I asked
              them to prioritize items, they thought that there was too many
              details. I then realized that they felt this way because they did not
              understand the product enough, and that the development team had been
              driving the product on their own since day one. Changing this around
              is a real challenge. For this reason, I am currently acting as both
              the Scrum master and the product owner until I can find someone
              outside the dev team that will take the product owner role and manage
              priorities.

              But overall, the implementation of a well defined process (Scrum) has
              been welcomed by the client/marketing/sales side as they know what we
              are working on now and they have control on what is next.

              -
              Claude Montpetit
              http://www.montpetit.net
            • Ron Jeffries
              ... The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you could just
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                > Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                > deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                > sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                > quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                > would in theory start very late:

                The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you
                could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig / chicken rule
                in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer should be.

                On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that often
                things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
              • Mike Cohn
                If these are truly one or two at a time I handle them in the next morning s Daily Scrum. We ll do the Scrum meeting as normal then everyone will stay for a few
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                  If these are truly one or two at a time I handle them in the next morning's
                  Daily Scrum. We'll do the Scrum meeting as normal then everyone will stay
                  for a few minutes and we'll estimate a story or two from the previous day or
                  that came up early in the morning.

                  We routinely also slip in an occasional one-hour estimating session in each
                  sprint just to look outward at future stories. That will eventually stop but
                  we're working through a large backlog of unestimated stories.

                  --Mike Cohn
                  Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                  www.userstories.com

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 6:04 PM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum and requirements (was Re: SCRUM
                  process with other methodologies)

                  On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                  > Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                  > deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                  > sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                  > quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                  > would in theory start very late:

                  The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                  hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you
                  could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig / chicken rule
                  in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer should be.

                  On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that often
                  things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear



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                • Claude Montpetit
                  Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to establish a fixed
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                    Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post
                    were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to
                    establish a fixed price bid for some requested product extensions.
                    Because they are for fixed price extensions, these estimation
                    requests become stories on their own as opposed to the rough estimates
                    that we set on most stories that enter the backlog.

                    (I have personnally never worked on a team that can produce such
                    estimates at a rate of hundred per day... must be great though ;)

                    Claude

                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                    <ronjeffries@X...> wrote:
                    > On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:
                    >
                    >>Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                    >>deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                    >>sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                    >>quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                    >>would in theory start very late:
                    >
                    >The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                    >hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an
                    estimate, you
                    >could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig
                    > / chicken rule in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer
                    should be.
                    >
                    >On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that
                    >often things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...
                    >
                    > Ron Jeffries
                    > www.XProgramming.com
                    > Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                  • Ron Jeffries
                    ... Yes. If it s a whole product, that would take a half-day or a day. I m talking about story estimates. If the group is commonly called upon to do that, I
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 7, 2004
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                      On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 11:33:23 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                      > Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post
                      > were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to
                      > establish a fixed price bid for some requested product extensions.
                      > Because they are for fixed price extensions, these estimation
                      > requests become stories on their own as opposed to the rough estimates
                      > that we set on most stories that enter the backlog.

                      > (I have personnally never worked on a team that can produce such
                      > estimates at a rate of hundred per day... must be great though ;)

                      Yes. If it's a whole product, that would take a half-day or a day. I'm
                      talking about story estimates.

                      If the group is commonly called upon to do that, I guess I'd just plan for
                      it in the team's velocity.

                      Ron Jeffries
                      www.XProgramming.com
                      Accroche toi a ton reve. --ELO
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