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RE: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

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  • Mike Cohn
    Michael-- For the most part you really want to do all that analysis work as part of the sprint. Keep in mind that requirements are like inventory and we don t
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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      Michael--
      For the most part you really want to do all that analysis work as part of
      the sprint. Keep in mind that requirements are like inventory and we don't
      want to pile up too much inventory that may never turn into finished
      software. Plus, if you do it too soon you lose the ability to have new
      learning impact those requirements and the knowledge goes stale quite
      quickly. A couple of short, to-the-point, upfront conversations don't hurt
      but when you start writing it all down, referring back to it, pointing to it
      as though it means something, then you've done too much requirements work
      upfront.

      --Mike Cohn
      Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
      www.userstories.com


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
      Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

      > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
      > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
      > prioritized with the rest?

      So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to be
      prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
      done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
      lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team). This is why I
      assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
      requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during this
      time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
      unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important. From there one can
      pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what the
      heck one wants.

      I know - this does sound a little waterfallish. But think of it this
      way - collaborative waterfall. JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
      members of a JAD team collaborate on the project. You're just
      "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next. And SCRUM
      allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.


      > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
      > www.netobjectives.com
      > DrDan@...
      > office: 425-269-8628

      Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
      lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques? You guys did
      a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
      better design. Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
      (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me! :) ).


      --

      Michael Dowling
      mdowling@...
      PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
      415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
      www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com



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    • Ron Jeffries
      ... Isn t that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even more often? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Anyone can make the simple
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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        On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 9:23:18 PM, Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13) wrote:

        > I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come
        > after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

        > I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave
        > thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves
        > thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

        Isn't that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even
        more often?

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        Anyone can make the simple complicated.
        Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
      • Jens Ƙstergaard
        I ve used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want ... Basic ... Hi Michael I have had absolutely no problem using excel and find that it works vey
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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          I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
          > to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it).
          Basic
          > requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.
          >

          Hi Michael

          I have had absolutely no problem using excel and find that it works
          vey well. If a team needs additional material for coordination, they
          figure it out themselves.

          If you sign in and look under files, I have posted an example of a
          sprintlog that we use.

          Jens
        • Reginald Braithwaite-Lee
          ... Whenever possible, I like to use corkboards or whiteboards. I m considering using a projector and a dedicated PC on my next project for things that don t
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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            --- Mike Cohn <mike@...> wrote:
            > I have successfully used:
            >
            > --cards
            > --a wiki
            > --rows in Excel
            > --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a
            > record)

            Whenever possible, I like to use corkboards or whiteboards. I'm
            considering using a projector and a dedicated PC on my next project for
            things that don't work well on paper.

            http://www.braithwaite-lee.com/opinions/cork-board.html

            --
            Reginald Braithwaite-Lee
            http://www.braithwaite-lee.com

            "Even when my proposals are seen as significant improvements, they are
            often rejected on the grounds that they are not intuitive. It is a
            classic Catch-22: The client wants something that is significantly
            superior to the competition. But if it is to be superior, it must be
            different. (Typically, the greater the improvement, the greater the
            difference.) Therefore, it cannot be intuitive, that is, familiar. What
            the client wants is an interface with at most marginal differences from
            current practice... that, somehow, makes a major improvement." --Jef
            Raskin


            __________________________________
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          • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
            I would say so. That s why we do empirical. David Roberts TRMS Technical Lead (619) 368-9621 ... From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@XProgramming.com] Sent:
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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              I would say so. That's why we do empirical.

               

              David Roberts

              TRMS Technical Lead

              (619) 368-9621

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
              Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 7:23 PM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

               

              On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 9:23:18 PM, Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13) wrote:

              > I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come
              > after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

              > I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave
              > thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves
              > thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

              Isn't that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even
              more often?

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              Anyone can make the simple complicated.
              Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus



              To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



            • Claude Montpetit
              We just implemented a Scrum process and there are many stories that were added just for requirement analysis. This became necessary because the product is
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                We just implemented a Scrum process and there are many stories that
                were added just for requirement analysis. This became necessary
                because the product is already sold and installed at some customer
                locations (a server product). These customers have custom
                requirements that we do for them and they (generally) pay us. So we
                need to estimate the work required for it. Producing an estimate is
                therefore a story that must be prioritized. Once the estimate is
                completed and the quote sent to the customer, another story is created
                in the product backlog:

                Implement request X for customer Y based on estimate Z

                Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                would in theory start very late:

                - month 1: submit the request
                - month 2: produce the estimate
                - month 3: implement the request

                This is not practical of course so we have been inserting estimates in
                the current sprint and informed the customer that he must decide in
                the current month whether he wants to go ahead or not if he wants it
                to be done in the next sprint.

                One of the strongest problem I had (and still have) implementing this
                process was to convince people outside of the development team
                (client, marketing, sales) that they should know about details of the
                products (bugs, certain improvements that look "too technical"...)

                Once the product backlog was transfered to "clients", and when I asked
                them to prioritize items, they thought that there was too many
                details. I then realized that they felt this way because they did not
                understand the product enough, and that the development team had been
                driving the product on their own since day one. Changing this around
                is a real challenge. For this reason, I am currently acting as both
                the Scrum master and the product owner until I can find someone
                outside the dev team that will take the product owner role and manage
                priorities.

                But overall, the implementation of a well defined process (Scrum) has
                been welcomed by the client/marketing/sales side as they know what we
                are working on now and they have control on what is next.

                -
                Claude Montpetit
                http://www.montpetit.net
              • Ron Jeffries
                ... The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you could just
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                  On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                  > Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                  > deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                  > sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                  > quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                  > would in theory start very late:

                  The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                  hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you
                  could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig / chicken rule
                  in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer should be.

                  On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that often
                  things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                • Mike Cohn
                  If these are truly one or two at a time I handle them in the next morning s Daily Scrum. We ll do the Scrum meeting as normal then everyone will stay for a few
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                    If these are truly one or two at a time I handle them in the next morning's
                    Daily Scrum. We'll do the Scrum meeting as normal then everyone will stay
                    for a few minutes and we'll estimate a story or two from the previous day or
                    that came up early in the morning.

                    We routinely also slip in an occasional one-hour estimating session in each
                    sprint just to look outward at future stories. That will eventually stop but
                    we're working through a large backlog of unestimated stories.

                    --Mike Cohn
                    Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                    www.userstories.com

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 6:04 PM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum and requirements (was Re: SCRUM
                    process with other methodologies)

                    On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                    > Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                    > deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                    > sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                    > quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                    > would in theory start very late:

                    The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                    hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you
                    could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig / chicken rule
                    in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer should be.

                    On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that often
                    things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...

                    Ron Jeffries
                    www.XProgramming.com
                    Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear



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                  • Claude Montpetit
                    Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to establish a fixed
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                      Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post
                      were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to
                      establish a fixed price bid for some requested product extensions.
                      Because they are for fixed price extensions, these estimation
                      requests become stories on their own as opposed to the rough estimates
                      that we set on most stories that enter the backlog.

                      (I have personnally never worked on a team that can produce such
                      estimates at a rate of hundred per day... must be great though ;)

                      Claude

                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                      <ronjeffries@X...> wrote:
                      > On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:
                      >
                      >>Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                      >>deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                      >>sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                      >>quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                      >>would in theory start very late:
                      >
                      >The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                      >hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an
                      estimate, you
                      >could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig
                      > / chicken rule in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer
                      should be.
                      >
                      >On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that
                      >often things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...
                      >
                      > Ron Jeffries
                      > www.XProgramming.com
                      > Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                    • Ron Jeffries
                      ... Yes. If it s a whole product, that would take a half-day or a day. I m talking about story estimates. If the group is commonly called upon to do that, I
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 7, 2004
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                        On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 11:33:23 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                        > Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post
                        > were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to
                        > establish a fixed price bid for some requested product extensions.
                        > Because they are for fixed price extensions, these estimation
                        > requests become stories on their own as opposed to the rough estimates
                        > that we set on most stories that enter the backlog.

                        > (I have personnally never worked on a team that can produce such
                        > estimates at a rate of hundred per day... must be great though ;)

                        Yes. If it's a whole product, that would take a half-day or a day. I'm
                        talking about story estimates.

                        If the group is commonly called upon to do that, I guess I'd just plan for
                        it in the team's velocity.

                        Ron Jeffries
                        www.XProgramming.com
                        Accroche toi a ton reve. --ELO
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