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RE: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

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  • Mike Cohn
    Michael-- For the most part you really want to do all that analysis work as part of the sprint. Keep in mind that requirements are like inventory and we don t
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 5 5:49 PM
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      Michael--
      For the most part you really want to do all that analysis work as part of
      the sprint. Keep in mind that requirements are like inventory and we don't
      want to pile up too much inventory that may never turn into finished
      software. Plus, if you do it too soon you lose the ability to have new
      learning impact those requirements and the knowledge goes stale quite
      quickly. A couple of short, to-the-point, upfront conversations don't hurt
      but when you start writing it all down, referring back to it, pointing to it
      as though it means something, then you've done too much requirements work
      upfront.

      --Mike Cohn
      Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
      www.userstories.com


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
      Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

      > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
      > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
      > prioritized with the rest?

      So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to be
      prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
      done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
      lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team). This is why I
      assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
      requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during this
      time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
      unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important. From there one can
      pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what the
      heck one wants.

      I know - this does sound a little waterfallish. But think of it this
      way - collaborative waterfall. JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
      members of a JAD team collaborate on the project. You're just
      "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next. And SCRUM
      allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.


      > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
      > www.netobjectives.com
      > DrDan@...
      > office: 425-269-8628

      Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
      lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques? You guys did
      a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
      better design. Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
      (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me! :) ).


      --

      Michael Dowling
      mdowling@...
      PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
      415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
      www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com



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    • Dan Rawsthorne
      Yes, Analyze XXX is a backlog item. One wouldn t do it unless XXX had a high enough priority to do it, right? In a system where we think of 50 use cases up
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 5 5:50 PM
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        Yes, "Analyze XXX" is a backlog item. One wouldn't do it unless XXX had
        a high enough priority to do it, right? In a system where we think of 50
        use cases up front we don't analyze all of them up front, we analyze
        them as we go.

        So, these analysis tasks must be on somebody's backlog. If that somebody
        is another, analysis, team, that's ok, but I prefer my team to be one,
        big, happy, one - including analysts, coders, testers, etc - with one,
        big, happy product backlog...

        Dan ;-)

        Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
        www.netobjectives.com
        DrDan@...
        office: 425-269-8628

        Net Objectives' vision is effective software development without
        suffering. Our mission is to assist software development teams in
        accomplishing this through a combination of training and mentoring.


        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
        > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
        > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies
        >
        > > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
        > > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
        > > prioritized with the rest?
        >
        > So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to
        be
        > prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
        > done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
        > lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team). This is why I
        > assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
        > requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during
        this
        > time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
        > unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important. From there one can
        > pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what
        the
        > heck one wants.
        >
        > I know - this does sound a little waterfallish. But think of it this
        > way - collaborative waterfall. JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
        > members of a JAD team collaborate on the project. You're just
        > "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next. And
        SCRUM
        > allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.
        >
        >
        > > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
        > > www.netobjectives.com
        > > DrDan@...
        > > office: 425-269-8628
        >
        > Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
        > lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques? You guys
        did
        > a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
        > better design. Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
        > (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me!
        :) ).
        >
        >
        > --
        >
        > Michael Dowling
        > mdowling@...
        > PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
        > 415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
        > www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com *
        > www.outandabout.com
        >
        >
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-
        > unsubscribe@...
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
        Michael, I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come after you ve developed something. You re lucky if otherwise is true for you. I
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 5 6:23 PM
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          Michael,

           

          I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

           

          I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

           

          What did you mean when you said: "You're just "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next".

          What are these phases?

           

          David Roberts

          TRMS Technical Lead

          (619) 368-9621

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
          Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

           

          > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
          > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
          > prioritized with the rest?

          So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to be
          prioritized?  That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
          done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
          lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team).  This is why I
          assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
          requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during this
          time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
          unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important.  From there one can
          pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what the
          heck one wants.

          I know - this does sound a little waterfallish.  But think of it this
          way - collaborative waterfall.  JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
          members of a JAD team collaborate on the project.  You're just
          "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next.  And SCRUM
          allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.


          > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
          > www.netobjectives.com
          > DrDan@...
          > office: 425-269-8628

          Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
          lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques?  You guys did
          a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
          better design.  Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
          (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me!  :) ).


          --

          Michael Dowling
          mdowling@...
          PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
          415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
          www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com



          To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



        • Mike Cohn
          I have successfully used: --cards --a wiki --rows in Excel --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a record) My preference is for cards
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 5 6:36 PM
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            I have successfully used:

            --cards
            --a wiki
            --rows in Excel
            --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a record)

            My preference is for cards whenever we're collocated. I want to try out
            XPlanner and VersionOne sometime but haven't tried either yet.

            --Mike Cohn
            Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
            www.userstories.com


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
            Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 4:53 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

            Excellent, Mike. For us, its going to take some time to "sprint"
            everything. Although - for us, having 2-week requirements gathering
            might be a bit much. 1 week max I would hope. But I see your point -
            the basic framework can be applied to each phase, slightly customized
            given the context.

            We're also considering the use of XPlanner as a tool (www.xplanner.org)
            to help us track our sprints and create burn graphs for management much
            easier. I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
            to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it). Basic
            requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.

            What have you had success in?

            Thank you for your comments - much appreciated!

            -Michael

            Mike Cohn wrote:

            > Hi Michael--
            >
            > I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing
            > Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn't get them to
            > initially accept the idea that we didn't need to think up all the
            > requirements upfront. To get the project moving I had them do a two week
            > "Requirements Capture Sprint" which focused just on getting initial
            > requirements written down. We still went very lightweight, using much of
            the
            > advice in Cockburn's "Effective Use Cases" book. They also couldn't get
            > around the idea that there'd be no upfront architecting so we did another
            > two week "Analysis and Design Sprint" (ADS) that was intended to allay
            that
            > fear.
            >
            > Some advice:
            > --realize this is a crutch and try to stop it as soon as you can. I never
            > had to do it more than once, right at the start. By the second project no
            > one needed it.
            > --It does work well so there's no problem with it, except developers could
            > be tempted to turn it into 4 weeks then 6, then 8.
            > --Although when I've done a Requirements Capture Sprint in the past I've
            > done it with use cases, I'd probably do it these days with it even shorter
            > (1 week instead of 2) and use stories instead of use cases.
            >
            > This is written up (in only slightly more detail) in a paper I did for
            IEEE
            > Computer last year. You can read it at:
            > http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles.php and select "Introducing
            An
            > Agile Process to an Organization."
            >
            > Good luck,
            >
            > --Mike Cohn
            > Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
            > www.userstories.com
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
            > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
            > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies
            >
            > Hey all:
            >
            > The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
            > development teams, and so far so good! I've worked with SCRUM before,
            > but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
            > using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
            > JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
            > some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
            > communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
            > the process as a whole.
            >
            > I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
            > approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?
            >
            > Best regards,
            >
            > -Michael
            >

            --

            Michael Dowling
            mdowling@...
            PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
            415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
            www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com




            To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
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          • Ron Jeffries
            ... Isn t that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even more often? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Anyone can make the simple
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 5 7:22 PM
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              On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 9:23:18 PM, Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13) wrote:

              > I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come
              > after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

              > I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave
              > thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves
              > thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

              Isn't that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even
              more often?

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              Anyone can make the simple complicated.
              Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
            • Jens Ƙstergaard
              I ve used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want ... Basic ... Hi Michael I have had absolutely no problem using excel and find that it works vey
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 6 12:23 AM
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                I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
                > to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it).
                Basic
                > requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.
                >

                Hi Michael

                I have had absolutely no problem using excel and find that it works
                vey well. If a team needs additional material for coordination, they
                figure it out themselves.

                If you sign in and look under files, I have posted an example of a
                sprintlog that we use.

                Jens
              • Reginald Braithwaite-Lee
                ... Whenever possible, I like to use corkboards or whiteboards. I m considering using a projector and a dedicated PC on my next project for things that don t
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 6 4:00 AM
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                  --- Mike Cohn <mike@...> wrote:
                  > I have successfully used:
                  >
                  > --cards
                  > --a wiki
                  > --rows in Excel
                  > --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a
                  > record)

                  Whenever possible, I like to use corkboards or whiteboards. I'm
                  considering using a projector and a dedicated PC on my next project for
                  things that don't work well on paper.

                  http://www.braithwaite-lee.com/opinions/cork-board.html

                  --
                  Reginald Braithwaite-Lee
                  http://www.braithwaite-lee.com

                  "Even when my proposals are seen as significant improvements, they are
                  often rejected on the grounds that they are not intuitive. It is a
                  classic Catch-22: The client wants something that is significantly
                  superior to the competition. But if it is to be superior, it must be
                  different. (Typically, the greater the improvement, the greater the
                  difference.) Therefore, it cannot be intuitive, that is, familiar. What
                  the client wants is an interface with at most marginal differences from
                  current practice... that, somehow, makes a major improvement." --Jef
                  Raskin


                  __________________________________
                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
                  http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
                • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
                  I would say so. That s why we do empirical. David Roberts TRMS Technical Lead (619) 368-9621 ... From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@XProgramming.com] Sent:
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 6 8:42 AM
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                    I would say so. That's why we do empirical.

                     

                    David Roberts

                    TRMS Technical Lead

                    (619) 368-9621

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                    Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 7:23 PM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                     

                    On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 9:23:18 PM, Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13) wrote:

                    > I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come
                    > after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

                    > I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave
                    > thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves
                    > thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

                    Isn't that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even
                    more often?

                    Ron Jeffries
                    www.XProgramming.com
                    Anyone can make the simple complicated.
                    Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus



                    To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



                  • Claude Montpetit
                    We just implemented a Scrum process and there are many stories that were added just for requirement analysis. This became necessary because the product is
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 6 2:58 PM
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                      We just implemented a Scrum process and there are many stories that
                      were added just for requirement analysis. This became necessary
                      because the product is already sold and installed at some customer
                      locations (a server product). These customers have custom
                      requirements that we do for them and they (generally) pay us. So we
                      need to estimate the work required for it. Producing an estimate is
                      therefore a story that must be prioritized. Once the estimate is
                      completed and the quote sent to the customer, another story is created
                      in the product backlog:

                      Implement request X for customer Y based on estimate Z

                      Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                      deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                      sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                      quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                      would in theory start very late:

                      - month 1: submit the request
                      - month 2: produce the estimate
                      - month 3: implement the request

                      This is not practical of course so we have been inserting estimates in
                      the current sprint and informed the customer that he must decide in
                      the current month whether he wants to go ahead or not if he wants it
                      to be done in the next sprint.

                      One of the strongest problem I had (and still have) implementing this
                      process was to convince people outside of the development team
                      (client, marketing, sales) that they should know about details of the
                      products (bugs, certain improvements that look "too technical"...)

                      Once the product backlog was transfered to "clients", and when I asked
                      them to prioritize items, they thought that there was too many
                      details. I then realized that they felt this way because they did not
                      understand the product enough, and that the development team had been
                      driving the product on their own since day one. Changing this around
                      is a real challenge. For this reason, I am currently acting as both
                      the Scrum master and the product owner until I can find someone
                      outside the dev team that will take the product owner role and manage
                      priorities.

                      But overall, the implementation of a well defined process (Scrum) has
                      been welcomed by the client/marketing/sales side as they know what we
                      are working on now and they have control on what is next.

                      -
                      Claude Montpetit
                      http://www.montpetit.net
                    • Ron Jeffries
                      ... The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you could just
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 6 5:03 PM
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                        On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                        > Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                        > deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                        > sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                        > quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                        > would in theory start very late:

                        The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                        hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you
                        could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig / chicken rule
                        in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer should be.

                        On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that often
                        things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...

                        Ron Jeffries
                        www.XProgramming.com
                        Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                      • Mike Cohn
                        If these are truly one or two at a time I handle them in the next morning s Daily Scrum. We ll do the Scrum meeting as normal then everyone will stay for a few
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 6 7:07 PM
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                          If these are truly one or two at a time I handle them in the next morning's
                          Daily Scrum. We'll do the Scrum meeting as normal then everyone will stay
                          for a few minutes and we'll estimate a story or two from the previous day or
                          that came up early in the morning.

                          We routinely also slip in an occasional one-hour estimating session in each
                          sprint just to look outward at future stories. That will eventually stop but
                          we're working through a large backlog of unestimated stories.

                          --Mike Cohn
                          Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                          www.userstories.com

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                          Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 6:04 PM
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum and requirements (was Re: SCRUM
                          process with other methodologies)

                          On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                          > Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                          > deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                          > sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                          > quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                          > would in theory start very late:

                          The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                          hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you
                          could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig / chicken rule
                          in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer should be.

                          On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that often
                          things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...

                          Ron Jeffries
                          www.XProgramming.com
                          Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear



                          To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                          scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
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                        • Claude Montpetit
                          Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to establish a fixed
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 6 8:33 PM
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                            Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post
                            were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to
                            establish a fixed price bid for some requested product extensions.
                            Because they are for fixed price extensions, these estimation
                            requests become stories on their own as opposed to the rough estimates
                            that we set on most stories that enter the backlog.

                            (I have personnally never worked on a team that can produce such
                            estimates at a rate of hundred per day... must be great though ;)

                            Claude

                            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                            <ronjeffries@X...> wrote:
                            > On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:
                            >
                            >>Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                            >>deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                            >>sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                            >>quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                            >>would in theory start very late:
                            >
                            >The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                            >hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an
                            estimate, you
                            >could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig
                            > / chicken rule in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer
                            should be.
                            >
                            >On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that
                            >often things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...
                            >
                            > Ron Jeffries
                            > www.XProgramming.com
                            > Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                          • Ron Jeffries
                            ... Yes. If it s a whole product, that would take a half-day or a day. I m talking about story estimates. If the group is commonly called upon to do that, I
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 7 3:25 AM
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                              On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 11:33:23 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                              > Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post
                              > were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to
                              > establish a fixed price bid for some requested product extensions.
                              > Because they are for fixed price extensions, these estimation
                              > requests become stories on their own as opposed to the rough estimates
                              > that we set on most stories that enter the backlog.

                              > (I have personnally never worked on a team that can produce such
                              > estimates at a rate of hundred per day... must be great though ;)

                              Yes. If it's a whole product, that would take a half-day or a day. I'm
                              talking about story estimates.

                              If the group is commonly called upon to do that, I guess I'd just plan for
                              it in the team's velocity.

                              Ron Jeffries
                              www.XProgramming.com
                              Accroche toi a ton reve. --ELO
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