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Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

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  • Michael Dowling
    Excellent, Mike. For us, its going to take some time to sprint everything. Although - for us, having 2-week requirements gathering might be a bit much. 1
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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      Excellent, Mike. For us, its going to take some time to "sprint"
      everything. Although - for us, having 2-week requirements gathering
      might be a bit much. 1 week max I would hope. But I see your point -
      the basic framework can be applied to each phase, slightly customized
      given the context.

      We're also considering the use of XPlanner as a tool (www.xplanner.org)
      to help us track our sprints and create burn graphs for management much
      easier. I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
      to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it). Basic
      requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.

      What have you had success in?

      Thank you for your comments - much appreciated!

      -Michael

      Mike Cohn wrote:

      > Hi Michael--
      >
      > I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing
      > Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn't get them to
      > initially accept the idea that we didn't need to think up all the
      > requirements upfront. To get the project moving I had them do a two week
      > "Requirements Capture Sprint" which focused just on getting initial
      > requirements written down. We still went very lightweight, using much of the
      > advice in Cockburn's "Effective Use Cases" book. They also couldn't get
      > around the idea that there'd be no upfront architecting so we did another
      > two week "Analysis and Design Sprint" (ADS) that was intended to allay that
      > fear.
      >
      > Some advice:
      > --realize this is a crutch and try to stop it as soon as you can. I never
      > had to do it more than once, right at the start. By the second project no
      > one needed it.
      > --It does work well so there's no problem with it, except developers could
      > be tempted to turn it into 4 weeks then 6, then 8.
      > --Although when I've done a Requirements Capture Sprint in the past I've
      > done it with use cases, I'd probably do it these days with it even shorter
      > (1 week instead of 2) and use stories instead of use cases.
      >
      > This is written up (in only slightly more detail) in a paper I did for IEEE
      > Computer last year. You can read it at:
      > http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles.php and select "Introducing An
      > Agile Process to an Organization."
      >
      > Good luck,
      >
      > --Mike Cohn
      > Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
      > www.userstories.com
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
      > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
      > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies
      >
      > Hey all:
      >
      > The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
      > development teams, and so far so good! I've worked with SCRUM before,
      > but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
      > using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
      > JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
      > some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
      > communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
      > the process as a whole.
      >
      > I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
      > approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?
      >
      > Best regards,
      >
      > -Michael
      >

      --

      Michael Dowling
      mdowling@...
      PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
      415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
      www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com
    • Mike Cohn
      Michael-- For the most part you really want to do all that analysis work as part of the sprint. Keep in mind that requirements are like inventory and we don t
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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        Michael--
        For the most part you really want to do all that analysis work as part of
        the sprint. Keep in mind that requirements are like inventory and we don't
        want to pile up too much inventory that may never turn into finished
        software. Plus, if you do it too soon you lose the ability to have new
        learning impact those requirements and the knowledge goes stale quite
        quickly. A couple of short, to-the-point, upfront conversations don't hurt
        but when you start writing it all down, referring back to it, pointing to it
        as though it means something, then you've done too much requirements work
        upfront.

        --Mike Cohn
        Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
        www.userstories.com


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
        Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

        > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
        > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
        > prioritized with the rest?

        So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to be
        prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
        done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
        lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team). This is why I
        assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
        requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during this
        time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
        unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important. From there one can
        pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what the
        heck one wants.

        I know - this does sound a little waterfallish. But think of it this
        way - collaborative waterfall. JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
        members of a JAD team collaborate on the project. You're just
        "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next. And SCRUM
        allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.


        > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
        > www.netobjectives.com
        > DrDan@...
        > office: 425-269-8628

        Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
        lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques? You guys did
        a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
        better design. Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
        (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me! :) ).


        --

        Michael Dowling
        mdowling@...
        PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
        415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
        www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com



        To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
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      • Dan Rawsthorne
        Yes, Analyze XXX is a backlog item. One wouldn t do it unless XXX had a high enough priority to do it, right? In a system where we think of 50 use cases up
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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          Yes, "Analyze XXX" is a backlog item. One wouldn't do it unless XXX had
          a high enough priority to do it, right? In a system where we think of 50
          use cases up front we don't analyze all of them up front, we analyze
          them as we go.

          So, these analysis tasks must be on somebody's backlog. If that somebody
          is another, analysis, team, that's ok, but I prefer my team to be one,
          big, happy, one - including analysts, coders, testers, etc - with one,
          big, happy product backlog...

          Dan ;-)

          Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
          www.netobjectives.com
          DrDan@...
          office: 425-269-8628

          Net Objectives' vision is effective software development without
          suffering. Our mission is to assist software development teams in
          accomplishing this through a combination of training and mentoring.


          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
          > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
          > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies
          >
          > > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
          > > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
          > > prioritized with the rest?
          >
          > So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to
          be
          > prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
          > done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
          > lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team). This is why I
          > assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
          > requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during
          this
          > time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
          > unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important. From there one can
          > pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what
          the
          > heck one wants.
          >
          > I know - this does sound a little waterfallish. But think of it this
          > way - collaborative waterfall. JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
          > members of a JAD team collaborate on the project. You're just
          > "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next. And
          SCRUM
          > allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.
          >
          >
          > > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
          > > www.netobjectives.com
          > > DrDan@...
          > > office: 425-269-8628
          >
          > Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
          > lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques? You guys
          did
          > a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
          > better design. Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
          > (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me!
          :) ).
          >
          >
          > --
          >
          > Michael Dowling
          > mdowling@...
          > PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
          > 415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
          > www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com *
          > www.outandabout.com
          >
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-
          > unsubscribe@...
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ______________________________________________________________________
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        • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
          Michael, I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come after you ve developed something. You re lucky if otherwise is true for you. I
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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            Michael,

             

            I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

             

            I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

             

            What did you mean when you said: "You're just "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next".

            What are these phases?

             

            David Roberts

            TRMS Technical Lead

            (619) 368-9621

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
            Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

             

            > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
            > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
            > prioritized with the rest?

            So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to be
            prioritized?  That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
            done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
            lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team).  This is why I
            assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
            requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during this
            time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
            unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important.  From there one can
            pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what the
            heck one wants.

            I know - this does sound a little waterfallish.  But think of it this
            way - collaborative waterfall.  JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
            members of a JAD team collaborate on the project.  You're just
            "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next.  And SCRUM
            allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.


            > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
            > www.netobjectives.com
            > DrDan@...
            > office: 425-269-8628

            Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
            lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques?  You guys did
            a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
            better design.  Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
            (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me!  :) ).


            --

            Michael Dowling
            mdowling@...
            PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
            415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
            www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com



            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



          • Mike Cohn
            I have successfully used: --cards --a wiki --rows in Excel --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a record) My preference is for cards
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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              I have successfully used:

              --cards
              --a wiki
              --rows in Excel
              --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a record)

              My preference is for cards whenever we're collocated. I want to try out
              XPlanner and VersionOne sometime but haven't tried either yet.

              --Mike Cohn
              Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
              www.userstories.com


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
              Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 4:53 PM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

              Excellent, Mike. For us, its going to take some time to "sprint"
              everything. Although - for us, having 2-week requirements gathering
              might be a bit much. 1 week max I would hope. But I see your point -
              the basic framework can be applied to each phase, slightly customized
              given the context.

              We're also considering the use of XPlanner as a tool (www.xplanner.org)
              to help us track our sprints and create burn graphs for management much
              easier. I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
              to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it). Basic
              requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.

              What have you had success in?

              Thank you for your comments - much appreciated!

              -Michael

              Mike Cohn wrote:

              > Hi Michael--
              >
              > I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing
              > Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn't get them to
              > initially accept the idea that we didn't need to think up all the
              > requirements upfront. To get the project moving I had them do a two week
              > "Requirements Capture Sprint" which focused just on getting initial
              > requirements written down. We still went very lightweight, using much of
              the
              > advice in Cockburn's "Effective Use Cases" book. They also couldn't get
              > around the idea that there'd be no upfront architecting so we did another
              > two week "Analysis and Design Sprint" (ADS) that was intended to allay
              that
              > fear.
              >
              > Some advice:
              > --realize this is a crutch and try to stop it as soon as you can. I never
              > had to do it more than once, right at the start. By the second project no
              > one needed it.
              > --It does work well so there's no problem with it, except developers could
              > be tempted to turn it into 4 weeks then 6, then 8.
              > --Although when I've done a Requirements Capture Sprint in the past I've
              > done it with use cases, I'd probably do it these days with it even shorter
              > (1 week instead of 2) and use stories instead of use cases.
              >
              > This is written up (in only slightly more detail) in a paper I did for
              IEEE
              > Computer last year. You can read it at:
              > http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles.php and select "Introducing
              An
              > Agile Process to an Organization."
              >
              > Good luck,
              >
              > --Mike Cohn
              > Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
              > www.userstories.com
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
              > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
              > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies
              >
              > Hey all:
              >
              > The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
              > development teams, and so far so good! I've worked with SCRUM before,
              > but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
              > using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
              > JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
              > some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
              > communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
              > the process as a whole.
              >
              > I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
              > approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?
              >
              > Best regards,
              >
              > -Michael
              >

              --

              Michael Dowling
              mdowling@...
              PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
              415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
              www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com




              To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Ron Jeffries
              ... Isn t that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even more often? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Anyone can make the simple
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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                On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 9:23:18 PM, Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13) wrote:

                > I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come
                > after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

                > I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave
                > thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves
                > thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

                Isn't that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even
                more often?

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                Anyone can make the simple complicated.
                Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
              • Jens Ƙstergaard
                I ve used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want ... Basic ... Hi Michael I have had absolutely no problem using excel and find that it works vey
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                  I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
                  > to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it).
                  Basic
                  > requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.
                  >

                  Hi Michael

                  I have had absolutely no problem using excel and find that it works
                  vey well. If a team needs additional material for coordination, they
                  figure it out themselves.

                  If you sign in and look under files, I have posted an example of a
                  sprintlog that we use.

                  Jens
                • Reginald Braithwaite-Lee
                  ... Whenever possible, I like to use corkboards or whiteboards. I m considering using a projector and a dedicated PC on my next project for things that don t
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                    --- Mike Cohn <mike@...> wrote:
                    > I have successfully used:
                    >
                    > --cards
                    > --a wiki
                    > --rows in Excel
                    > --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a
                    > record)

                    Whenever possible, I like to use corkboards or whiteboards. I'm
                    considering using a projector and a dedicated PC on my next project for
                    things that don't work well on paper.

                    http://www.braithwaite-lee.com/opinions/cork-board.html

                    --
                    Reginald Braithwaite-Lee
                    http://www.braithwaite-lee.com

                    "Even when my proposals are seen as significant improvements, they are
                    often rejected on the grounds that they are not intuitive. It is a
                    classic Catch-22: The client wants something that is significantly
                    superior to the competition. But if it is to be superior, it must be
                    different. (Typically, the greater the improvement, the greater the
                    difference.) Therefore, it cannot be intuitive, that is, familiar. What
                    the client wants is an interface with at most marginal differences from
                    current practice... that, somehow, makes a major improvement." --Jef
                    Raskin


                    __________________________________
                    Do you Yahoo!?
                    Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
                    http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
                  • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
                    I would say so. That s why we do empirical. David Roberts TRMS Technical Lead (619) 368-9621 ... From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@XProgramming.com] Sent:
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                      I would say so. That's why we do empirical.

                       

                      David Roberts

                      TRMS Technical Lead

                      (619) 368-9621

                       

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                      Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 7:23 PM
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                       

                      On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 9:23:18 PM, Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13) wrote:

                      > I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come
                      > after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

                      > I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave
                      > thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves
                      > thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

                      Isn't that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even
                      more often?

                      Ron Jeffries
                      www.XProgramming.com
                      Anyone can make the simple complicated.
                      Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus



                      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



                    • Claude Montpetit
                      We just implemented a Scrum process and there are many stories that were added just for requirement analysis. This became necessary because the product is
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                        We just implemented a Scrum process and there are many stories that
                        were added just for requirement analysis. This became necessary
                        because the product is already sold and installed at some customer
                        locations (a server product). These customers have custom
                        requirements that we do for them and they (generally) pay us. So we
                        need to estimate the work required for it. Producing an estimate is
                        therefore a story that must be prioritized. Once the estimate is
                        completed and the quote sent to the customer, another story is created
                        in the product backlog:

                        Implement request X for customer Y based on estimate Z

                        Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                        deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                        sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                        quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                        would in theory start very late:

                        - month 1: submit the request
                        - month 2: produce the estimate
                        - month 3: implement the request

                        This is not practical of course so we have been inserting estimates in
                        the current sprint and informed the customer that he must decide in
                        the current month whether he wants to go ahead or not if he wants it
                        to be done in the next sprint.

                        One of the strongest problem I had (and still have) implementing this
                        process was to convince people outside of the development team
                        (client, marketing, sales) that they should know about details of the
                        products (bugs, certain improvements that look "too technical"...)

                        Once the product backlog was transfered to "clients", and when I asked
                        them to prioritize items, they thought that there was too many
                        details. I then realized that they felt this way because they did not
                        understand the product enough, and that the development team had been
                        driving the product on their own since day one. Changing this around
                        is a real challenge. For this reason, I am currently acting as both
                        the Scrum master and the product owner until I can find someone
                        outside the dev team that will take the product owner role and manage
                        priorities.

                        But overall, the implementation of a well defined process (Scrum) has
                        been welcomed by the client/marketing/sales side as they know what we
                        are working on now and they have control on what is next.

                        -
                        Claude Montpetit
                        http://www.montpetit.net
                      • Ron Jeffries
                        ... The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you could just
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                          On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                          > Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                          > deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                          > sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                          > quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                          > would in theory start very late:

                          The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                          hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you
                          could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig / chicken rule
                          in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer should be.

                          On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that often
                          things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...

                          Ron Jeffries
                          www.XProgramming.com
                          Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                        • Mike Cohn
                          If these are truly one or two at a time I handle them in the next morning s Daily Scrum. We ll do the Scrum meeting as normal then everyone will stay for a few
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                            If these are truly one or two at a time I handle them in the next morning's
                            Daily Scrum. We'll do the Scrum meeting as normal then everyone will stay
                            for a few minutes and we'll estimate a story or two from the previous day or
                            that came up early in the morning.

                            We routinely also slip in an occasional one-hour estimating session in each
                            sprint just to look outward at future stories. That will eventually stop but
                            we're working through a large backlog of unestimated stories.

                            --Mike Cohn
                            Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                            www.userstories.com

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                            Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 6:04 PM
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum and requirements (was Re: SCRUM
                            process with other methodologies)

                            On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                            > Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                            > deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                            > sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                            > quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                            > would in theory start very late:

                            The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                            hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you
                            could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig / chicken rule
                            in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer should be.

                            On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that often
                            things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...

                            Ron Jeffries
                            www.XProgramming.com
                            Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear



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                          • Claude Montpetit
                            Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to establish a fixed
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                              Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post
                              were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to
                              establish a fixed price bid for some requested product extensions.
                              Because they are for fixed price extensions, these estimation
                              requests become stories on their own as opposed to the rough estimates
                              that we set on most stories that enter the backlog.

                              (I have personnally never worked on a team that can produce such
                              estimates at a rate of hundred per day... must be great though ;)

                              Claude

                              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                              <ronjeffries@X...> wrote:
                              > On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:
                              >
                              >>Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                              >>deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                              >>sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                              >>quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                              >>would in theory start very late:
                              >
                              >The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                              >hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an
                              estimate, you
                              >could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig
                              > / chicken rule in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer
                              should be.
                              >
                              >On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that
                              >often things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...
                              >
                              > Ron Jeffries
                              > www.XProgramming.com
                              > Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                            • Ron Jeffries
                              ... Yes. If it s a whole product, that would take a half-day or a day. I m talking about story estimates. If the group is commonly called upon to do that, I
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 7, 2004
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                                On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 11:33:23 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                                > Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post
                                > were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to
                                > establish a fixed price bid for some requested product extensions.
                                > Because they are for fixed price extensions, these estimation
                                > requests become stories on their own as opposed to the rough estimates
                                > that we set on most stories that enter the backlog.

                                > (I have personnally never worked on a team that can produce such
                                > estimates at a rate of hundred per day... must be great though ;)

                                Yes. If it's a whole product, that would take a half-day or a day. I'm
                                talking about story estimates.

                                If the group is commonly called upon to do that, I guess I'd just plan for
                                it in the team's velocity.

                                Ron Jeffries
                                www.XProgramming.com
                                Accroche toi a ton reve. --ELO
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