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Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

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  • Michael Dowling
    Excellent, Mike. For us, its going to take some time to sprint everything. Although - for us, having 2-week requirements gathering might be a bit much. 1
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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      Excellent, Mike. For us, its going to take some time to "sprint"
      everything. Although - for us, having 2-week requirements gathering
      might be a bit much. 1 week max I would hope. But I see your point -
      the basic framework can be applied to each phase, slightly customized
      given the context.

      We're also considering the use of XPlanner as a tool (www.xplanner.org)
      to help us track our sprints and create burn graphs for management much
      easier. I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
      to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it). Basic
      requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.

      What have you had success in?

      Thank you for your comments - much appreciated!

      -Michael

      Mike Cohn wrote:

      > Hi Michael--
      >
      > I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing
      > Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn't get them to
      > initially accept the idea that we didn't need to think up all the
      > requirements upfront. To get the project moving I had them do a two week
      > "Requirements Capture Sprint" which focused just on getting initial
      > requirements written down. We still went very lightweight, using much of the
      > advice in Cockburn's "Effective Use Cases" book. They also couldn't get
      > around the idea that there'd be no upfront architecting so we did another
      > two week "Analysis and Design Sprint" (ADS) that was intended to allay that
      > fear.
      >
      > Some advice:
      > --realize this is a crutch and try to stop it as soon as you can. I never
      > had to do it more than once, right at the start. By the second project no
      > one needed it.
      > --It does work well so there's no problem with it, except developers could
      > be tempted to turn it into 4 weeks then 6, then 8.
      > --Although when I've done a Requirements Capture Sprint in the past I've
      > done it with use cases, I'd probably do it these days with it even shorter
      > (1 week instead of 2) and use stories instead of use cases.
      >
      > This is written up (in only slightly more detail) in a paper I did for IEEE
      > Computer last year. You can read it at:
      > http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles.php and select "Introducing An
      > Agile Process to an Organization."
      >
      > Good luck,
      >
      > --Mike Cohn
      > Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
      > www.userstories.com
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
      > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
      > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies
      >
      > Hey all:
      >
      > The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
      > development teams, and so far so good! I've worked with SCRUM before,
      > but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
      > using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
      > JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
      > some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
      > communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
      > the process as a whole.
      >
      > I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
      > approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?
      >
      > Best regards,
      >
      > -Michael
      >

      --

      Michael Dowling
      mdowling@...
      PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
      415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
      www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com
    • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
      Anyone interested, I find developers to be the most fearful of incremental development (without admitting). You mean I have to revisit my code? I thought I
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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        Anyone interested,

         

        I find developers to be the most fearful of incremental development (without admitting).

         

        "You mean I have to revisit my code? I thought I was done with that..."

         

        David Roberts

        InnovaSystems

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
        Sent
        :
        Monday, April 05, 2004 12:28 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

         

        Hi Michael--

        I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing
        Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn't get them to
        initially accept the idea that we didn't need to think up all the
        requirements upfront. To get the project moving I had them do a two week
        "Requirements Capture Sprint" which focused just on getting initial
        requirements written down. We still went very lightweight, using much of the
        advice in Cockburn's "Effective Use Cases" book. They also couldn't get
        around the idea that there'd be no upfront architecting so we did another
        two week "Analysis and Design Sprint" (ADS) that was intended to allay that
        fear.

        Some advice:
        --realize this is a crutch and try to stop it as soon as you can. I never
        had to do it more than once, right at the start. By the second project no
        one needed it.
        --It does work well so there's no problem with it, except developers could
        be tempted to turn it into 4 weeks then 6, then 8.
        --Although when I've done a Requirements Capture Sprint in the past I've
        done it with use cases, I'd probably do it these days with it even shorter
        (1 week instead of 2) and use stories instead of use cases.

        This is written up (in only slightly more detail) in a paper I did for IEEE
        Computer last year. You can read it at:
        http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles.php and select "Introducing An
        Agile Process to an Organization."

        Good luck,

        --Mike Cohn
        Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
        www.userstories.com


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
        Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

        Hey all:

        The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
        development teams, and so far so good!  I've worked with SCRUM before,
        but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
        using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
        JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
        some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
        communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
        the process as a whole.

        I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
        approach, and what their results were?  Any recommendations?

        Best regards,

        -Michael

        --

        Michael Dowling
        mdowling@...
        PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
        415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
        www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com




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      • Mike Cohn
        Michael-- For the most part you really want to do all that analysis work as part of the sprint. Keep in mind that requirements are like inventory and we don t
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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          Michael--
          For the most part you really want to do all that analysis work as part of
          the sprint. Keep in mind that requirements are like inventory and we don't
          want to pile up too much inventory that may never turn into finished
          software. Plus, if you do it too soon you lose the ability to have new
          learning impact those requirements and the knowledge goes stale quite
          quickly. A couple of short, to-the-point, upfront conversations don't hurt
          but when you start writing it all down, referring back to it, pointing to it
          as though it means something, then you've done too much requirements work
          upfront.

          --Mike Cohn
          Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
          www.userstories.com


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
          Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

          > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
          > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
          > prioritized with the rest?

          So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to be
          prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
          done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
          lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team). This is why I
          assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
          requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during this
          time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
          unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important. From there one can
          pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what the
          heck one wants.

          I know - this does sound a little waterfallish. But think of it this
          way - collaborative waterfall. JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
          members of a JAD team collaborate on the project. You're just
          "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next. And SCRUM
          allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.


          > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
          > www.netobjectives.com
          > DrDan@...
          > office: 425-269-8628

          Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
          lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques? You guys did
          a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
          better design. Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
          (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me! :) ).


          --

          Michael Dowling
          mdowling@...
          PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
          415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
          www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com



          To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
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        • Dan Rawsthorne
          Yes, Analyze XXX is a backlog item. One wouldn t do it unless XXX had a high enough priority to do it, right? In a system where we think of 50 use cases up
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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            Yes, "Analyze XXX" is a backlog item. One wouldn't do it unless XXX had
            a high enough priority to do it, right? In a system where we think of 50
            use cases up front we don't analyze all of them up front, we analyze
            them as we go.

            So, these analysis tasks must be on somebody's backlog. If that somebody
            is another, analysis, team, that's ok, but I prefer my team to be one,
            big, happy, one - including analysts, coders, testers, etc - with one,
            big, happy product backlog...

            Dan ;-)

            Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
            www.netobjectives.com
            DrDan@...
            office: 425-269-8628

            Net Objectives' vision is effective software development without
            suffering. Our mission is to assist software development teams in
            accomplishing this through a combination of training and mentoring.


            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
            > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
            > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies
            >
            > > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
            > > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
            > > prioritized with the rest?
            >
            > So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to
            be
            > prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
            > done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
            > lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team). This is why I
            > assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
            > requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during
            this
            > time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
            > unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important. From there one can
            > pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what
            the
            > heck one wants.
            >
            > I know - this does sound a little waterfallish. But think of it this
            > way - collaborative waterfall. JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
            > members of a JAD team collaborate on the project. You're just
            > "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next. And
            SCRUM
            > allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.
            >
            >
            > > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
            > > www.netobjectives.com
            > > DrDan@...
            > > office: 425-269-8628
            >
            > Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
            > lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques? You guys
            did
            > a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
            > better design. Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
            > (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me!
            :) ).
            >
            >
            > --
            >
            > Michael Dowling
            > mdowling@...
            > PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
            > 415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
            > www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com *
            > www.outandabout.com
            >
            >
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-
            > unsubscribe@...
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ______________________________________________________________________
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            > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
            > ______________________________________________________________________
          • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
            Michael, I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come after you ve developed something. You re lucky if otherwise is true for you. I
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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              Michael,

               

              I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

               

              I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

               

              What did you mean when you said: "You're just "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next".

              What are these phases?

               

              David Roberts

              TRMS Technical Lead

              (619) 368-9621

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
              Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

               

              > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
              > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
              > prioritized with the rest?

              So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to be
              prioritized?  That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
              done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
              lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team).  This is why I
              assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
              requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during this
              time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
              unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important.  From there one can
              pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what the
              heck one wants.

              I know - this does sound a little waterfallish.  But think of it this
              way - collaborative waterfall.  JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
              members of a JAD team collaborate on the project.  You're just
              "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next.  And SCRUM
              allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.


              > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
              > www.netobjectives.com
              > DrDan@...
              > office: 425-269-8628

              Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
              lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques?  You guys did
              a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
              better design.  Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
              (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me!  :) ).


              --

              Michael Dowling
              mdowling@...
              PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
              415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
              www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com



              To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



            • Mike Cohn
              I have successfully used: --cards --a wiki --rows in Excel --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a record) My preference is for cards
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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                I have successfully used:

                --cards
                --a wiki
                --rows in Excel
                --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a record)

                My preference is for cards whenever we're collocated. I want to try out
                XPlanner and VersionOne sometime but haven't tried either yet.

                --Mike Cohn
                Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                www.userstories.com


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 4:53 PM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                Excellent, Mike. For us, its going to take some time to "sprint"
                everything. Although - for us, having 2-week requirements gathering
                might be a bit much. 1 week max I would hope. But I see your point -
                the basic framework can be applied to each phase, slightly customized
                given the context.

                We're also considering the use of XPlanner as a tool (www.xplanner.org)
                to help us track our sprints and create burn graphs for management much
                easier. I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
                to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it). Basic
                requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.

                What have you had success in?

                Thank you for your comments - much appreciated!

                -Michael

                Mike Cohn wrote:

                > Hi Michael--
                >
                > I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing
                > Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn't get them to
                > initially accept the idea that we didn't need to think up all the
                > requirements upfront. To get the project moving I had them do a two week
                > "Requirements Capture Sprint" which focused just on getting initial
                > requirements written down. We still went very lightweight, using much of
                the
                > advice in Cockburn's "Effective Use Cases" book. They also couldn't get
                > around the idea that there'd be no upfront architecting so we did another
                > two week "Analysis and Design Sprint" (ADS) that was intended to allay
                that
                > fear.
                >
                > Some advice:
                > --realize this is a crutch and try to stop it as soon as you can. I never
                > had to do it more than once, right at the start. By the second project no
                > one needed it.
                > --It does work well so there's no problem with it, except developers could
                > be tempted to turn it into 4 weeks then 6, then 8.
                > --Although when I've done a Requirements Capture Sprint in the past I've
                > done it with use cases, I'd probably do it these days with it even shorter
                > (1 week instead of 2) and use stories instead of use cases.
                >
                > This is written up (in only slightly more detail) in a paper I did for
                IEEE
                > Computer last year. You can read it at:
                > http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles.php and select "Introducing
                An
                > Agile Process to an Organization."
                >
                > Good luck,
                >
                > --Mike Cohn
                > Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                > www.userstories.com
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
                > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies
                >
                > Hey all:
                >
                > The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
                > development teams, and so far so good! I've worked with SCRUM before,
                > but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
                > using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
                > JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
                > some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
                > communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
                > the process as a whole.
                >
                > I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
                > approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?
                >
                > Best regards,
                >
                > -Michael
                >

                --

                Michael Dowling
                mdowling@...
                PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
                415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
                www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com




                To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
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              • Ron Jeffries
                ... Isn t that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even more often? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Anyone can make the simple
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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                  On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 9:23:18 PM, Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13) wrote:

                  > I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come
                  > after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

                  > I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave
                  > thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves
                  > thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

                  Isn't that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even
                  more often?

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  Anyone can make the simple complicated.
                  Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
                • Jens Ƙstergaard
                  I ve used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want ... Basic ... Hi Michael I have had absolutely no problem using excel and find that it works vey
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                    I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
                    > to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it).
                    Basic
                    > requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.
                    >

                    Hi Michael

                    I have had absolutely no problem using excel and find that it works
                    vey well. If a team needs additional material for coordination, they
                    figure it out themselves.

                    If you sign in and look under files, I have posted an example of a
                    sprintlog that we use.

                    Jens
                  • Reginald Braithwaite-Lee
                    ... Whenever possible, I like to use corkboards or whiteboards. I m considering using a projector and a dedicated PC on my next project for things that don t
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                      --- Mike Cohn <mike@...> wrote:
                      > I have successfully used:
                      >
                      > --cards
                      > --a wiki
                      > --rows in Excel
                      > --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a
                      > record)

                      Whenever possible, I like to use corkboards or whiteboards. I'm
                      considering using a projector and a dedicated PC on my next project for
                      things that don't work well on paper.

                      http://www.braithwaite-lee.com/opinions/cork-board.html

                      --
                      Reginald Braithwaite-Lee
                      http://www.braithwaite-lee.com

                      "Even when my proposals are seen as significant improvements, they are
                      often rejected on the grounds that they are not intuitive. It is a
                      classic Catch-22: The client wants something that is significantly
                      superior to the competition. But if it is to be superior, it must be
                      different. (Typically, the greater the improvement, the greater the
                      difference.) Therefore, it cannot be intuitive, that is, familiar. What
                      the client wants is an interface with at most marginal differences from
                      current practice... that, somehow, makes a major improvement." --Jef
                      Raskin


                      __________________________________
                      Do you Yahoo!?
                      Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
                      http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
                    • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
                      I would say so. That s why we do empirical. David Roberts TRMS Technical Lead (619) 368-9621 ... From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@XProgramming.com] Sent:
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                        I would say so. That's why we do empirical.

                         

                        David Roberts

                        TRMS Technical Lead

                        (619) 368-9621

                         

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                        Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 7:23 PM
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                         

                        On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 9:23:18 PM, Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13) wrote:

                        > I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come
                        > after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

                        > I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave
                        > thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves
                        > thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

                        Isn't that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even
                        more often?

                        Ron Jeffries
                        www.XProgramming.com
                        Anyone can make the simple complicated.
                        Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus



                        To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



                      • Claude Montpetit
                        We just implemented a Scrum process and there are many stories that were added just for requirement analysis. This became necessary because the product is
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                          We just implemented a Scrum process and there are many stories that
                          were added just for requirement analysis. This became necessary
                          because the product is already sold and installed at some customer
                          locations (a server product). These customers have custom
                          requirements that we do for them and they (generally) pay us. So we
                          need to estimate the work required for it. Producing an estimate is
                          therefore a story that must be prioritized. Once the estimate is
                          completed and the quote sent to the customer, another story is created
                          in the product backlog:

                          Implement request X for customer Y based on estimate Z

                          Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                          deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                          sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                          quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                          would in theory start very late:

                          - month 1: submit the request
                          - month 2: produce the estimate
                          - month 3: implement the request

                          This is not practical of course so we have been inserting estimates in
                          the current sprint and informed the customer that he must decide in
                          the current month whether he wants to go ahead or not if he wants it
                          to be done in the next sprint.

                          One of the strongest problem I had (and still have) implementing this
                          process was to convince people outside of the development team
                          (client, marketing, sales) that they should know about details of the
                          products (bugs, certain improvements that look "too technical"...)

                          Once the product backlog was transfered to "clients", and when I asked
                          them to prioritize items, they thought that there was too many
                          details. I then realized that they felt this way because they did not
                          understand the product enough, and that the development team had been
                          driving the product on their own since day one. Changing this around
                          is a real challenge. For this reason, I am currently acting as both
                          the Scrum master and the product owner until I can find someone
                          outside the dev team that will take the product owner role and manage
                          priorities.

                          But overall, the implementation of a well defined process (Scrum) has
                          been welcomed by the client/marketing/sales side as they know what we
                          are working on now and they have control on what is next.

                          -
                          Claude Montpetit
                          http://www.montpetit.net
                        • Ron Jeffries
                          ... The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you could just
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                            On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                            > Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                            > deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                            > sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                            > quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                            > would in theory start very late:

                            The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                            hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you
                            could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig / chicken rule
                            in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer should be.

                            On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that often
                            things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...

                            Ron Jeffries
                            www.XProgramming.com
                            Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                          • Mike Cohn
                            If these are truly one or two at a time I handle them in the next morning s Daily Scrum. We ll do the Scrum meeting as normal then everyone will stay for a few
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                              If these are truly one or two at a time I handle them in the next morning's
                              Daily Scrum. We'll do the Scrum meeting as normal then everyone will stay
                              for a few minutes and we'll estimate a story or two from the previous day or
                              that came up early in the morning.

                              We routinely also slip in an occasional one-hour estimating session in each
                              sprint just to look outward at future stories. That will eventually stop but
                              we're working through a large backlog of unestimated stories.

                              --Mike Cohn
                              Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                              www.userstories.com

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                              Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 6:04 PM
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum and requirements (was Re: SCRUM
                              process with other methodologies)

                              On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                              > Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                              > deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                              > sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                              > quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                              > would in theory start very late:

                              The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                              hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you
                              could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig / chicken rule
                              in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer should be.

                              On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that often
                              things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...

                              Ron Jeffries
                              www.XProgramming.com
                              Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear



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                            • Claude Montpetit
                              Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to establish a fixed
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                                Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post
                                were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to
                                establish a fixed price bid for some requested product extensions.
                                Because they are for fixed price extensions, these estimation
                                requests become stories on their own as opposed to the rough estimates
                                that we set on most stories that enter the backlog.

                                (I have personnally never worked on a team that can produce such
                                estimates at a rate of hundred per day... must be great though ;)

                                Claude

                                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                                <ronjeffries@X...> wrote:
                                > On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:
                                >
                                >>Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                                >>deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                                >>sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                                >>quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                                >>would in theory start very late:
                                >
                                >The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                                >hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an
                                estimate, you
                                >could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig
                                > / chicken rule in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer
                                should be.
                                >
                                >On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that
                                >often things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...
                                >
                                > Ron Jeffries
                                > www.XProgramming.com
                                > Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                              • Ron Jeffries
                                ... Yes. If it s a whole product, that would take a half-day or a day. I m talking about story estimates. If the group is commonly called upon to do that, I
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 7, 2004
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                                  On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 11:33:23 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                                  > Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post
                                  > were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to
                                  > establish a fixed price bid for some requested product extensions.
                                  > Because they are for fixed price extensions, these estimation
                                  > requests become stories on their own as opposed to the rough estimates
                                  > that we set on most stories that enter the backlog.

                                  > (I have personnally never worked on a team that can produce such
                                  > estimates at a rate of hundred per day... must be great though ;)

                                  Yes. If it's a whole product, that would take a half-day or a day. I'm
                                  talking about story estimates.

                                  If the group is commonly called upon to do that, I guess I'd just plan for
                                  it in the team's velocity.

                                  Ron Jeffries
                                  www.XProgramming.com
                                  Accroche toi a ton reve. --ELO
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