Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

Expand Messages
  • Mike Cohn
    Hi Michael-- I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn t get them to
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Michael--

      I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing
      Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn't get them to
      initially accept the idea that we didn't need to think up all the
      requirements upfront. To get the project moving I had them do a two week
      "Requirements Capture Sprint" which focused just on getting initial
      requirements written down. We still went very lightweight, using much of the
      advice in Cockburn's "Effective Use Cases" book. They also couldn't get
      around the idea that there'd be no upfront architecting so we did another
      two week "Analysis and Design Sprint" (ADS) that was intended to allay that
      fear.

      Some advice:
      --realize this is a crutch and try to stop it as soon as you can. I never
      had to do it more than once, right at the start. By the second project no
      one needed it.
      --It does work well so there's no problem with it, except developers could
      be tempted to turn it into 4 weeks then 6, then 8.
      --Although when I've done a Requirements Capture Sprint in the past I've
      done it with use cases, I'd probably do it these days with it even shorter
      (1 week instead of 2) and use stories instead of use cases.

      This is written up (in only slightly more detail) in a paper I did for IEEE
      Computer last year. You can read it at:
      http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles.php and select "Introducing An
      Agile Process to an Organization."

      Good luck,

      --Mike Cohn
      Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
      www.userstories.com


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
      Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

      Hey all:

      The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
      development teams, and so far so good! I've worked with SCRUM before,
      but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
      using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
      JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
      some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
      communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
      the process as a whole.

      I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
      approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?

      Best regards,

      -Michael

      --

      Michael Dowling
      mdowling@...
      PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
      415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
      www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com




      To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Michael Dowling
      ... So, basically Gather Requirements on Feature X be a backlog item to be prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be done on a
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
        > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
        > prioritized with the rest?

        So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to be
        prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
        done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
        lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team). This is why I
        assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
        requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during this
        time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
        unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important. From there one can
        pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what the
        heck one wants.

        I know - this does sound a little waterfallish. But think of it this
        way - collaborative waterfall. JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
        members of a JAD team collaborate on the project. You're just
        "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next. And SCRUM
        allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.


        > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
        > www.netobjectives.com
        > DrDan@...
        > office: 425-269-8628

        Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
        lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques? You guys did
        a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
        better design. Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
        (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me! :) ).


        --

        Michael Dowling
        mdowling@...
        PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
        415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
        www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com
      • Michael Dowling
        ... Using SCRUM alongside artifacts and process from other methods :) -Michael -- Michael Dowling mdowling@planetoutpartners.com PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          >>I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
          >>approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?
          >
          >
          > Which approach? Using Scrum? Or using Scrum plus a bunch of artifacts from
          > other methods?

          Using SCRUM alongside artifacts and process from other methods :)

          -Michael

          --

          Michael Dowling
          mdowling@...
          PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
          415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
          www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com
        • Ron Jeffries
          ... Ah. Yes and no. I use Scrum-style planning along with practices from XP. (We call that XP.) I ve seen many projects using XP, or Scrum, with a few random
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 4:49:13 PM, Michael Dowling wrote:

            >>>I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
            >>>approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?
            >>
            >>
            >> Which approach? Using Scrum? Or using Scrum plus a bunch of artifacts from
            >> other methods?

            > Using SCRUM alongside artifacts and process from other methods :)

            Ah. Yes and no. I use Scrum-style planning along with practices from XP.
            (We call that XP.) I've seen many projects using XP, or Scrum, with a few
            random artifacts that they found that they liked and wanted.

            If this is done because some aspect of the project needs that artifact,
            well and good. If it is done because it is believe that all projects
            "should", this is, in my strong opinion, a mistake. Not all project do need
            those things.

            It's best to get down to specifics when it comes to agile methods, namely
            to consider a specific project and a specific artifact or practices, and
            whether that project should, or should not, do that thing.

            Since real Scrum projects ship real software every month, many artifacts
            become redundant. Others, such as up front considerations, may or may not.

            With a more specific question, I'd have a more specific answer. In general,
            my answer is that in general, Scrum is perfectly safe as it stands and is a
            good place to start. It will provide feedback that will let you assess, for
            each project, whether it should produce other materials.

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            Hold on to your dream. --ELO
          • Michael Dowling
            Excellent, Mike. For us, its going to take some time to sprint everything. Although - for us, having 2-week requirements gathering might be a bit much. 1
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Excellent, Mike. For us, its going to take some time to "sprint"
              everything. Although - for us, having 2-week requirements gathering
              might be a bit much. 1 week max I would hope. But I see your point -
              the basic framework can be applied to each phase, slightly customized
              given the context.

              We're also considering the use of XPlanner as a tool (www.xplanner.org)
              to help us track our sprints and create burn graphs for management much
              easier. I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
              to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it). Basic
              requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.

              What have you had success in?

              Thank you for your comments - much appreciated!

              -Michael

              Mike Cohn wrote:

              > Hi Michael--
              >
              > I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing
              > Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn't get them to
              > initially accept the idea that we didn't need to think up all the
              > requirements upfront. To get the project moving I had them do a two week
              > "Requirements Capture Sprint" which focused just on getting initial
              > requirements written down. We still went very lightweight, using much of the
              > advice in Cockburn's "Effective Use Cases" book. They also couldn't get
              > around the idea that there'd be no upfront architecting so we did another
              > two week "Analysis and Design Sprint" (ADS) that was intended to allay that
              > fear.
              >
              > Some advice:
              > --realize this is a crutch and try to stop it as soon as you can. I never
              > had to do it more than once, right at the start. By the second project no
              > one needed it.
              > --It does work well so there's no problem with it, except developers could
              > be tempted to turn it into 4 weeks then 6, then 8.
              > --Although when I've done a Requirements Capture Sprint in the past I've
              > done it with use cases, I'd probably do it these days with it even shorter
              > (1 week instead of 2) and use stories instead of use cases.
              >
              > This is written up (in only slightly more detail) in a paper I did for IEEE
              > Computer last year. You can read it at:
              > http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles.php and select "Introducing An
              > Agile Process to an Organization."
              >
              > Good luck,
              >
              > --Mike Cohn
              > Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
              > www.userstories.com
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
              > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
              > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies
              >
              > Hey all:
              >
              > The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
              > development teams, and so far so good! I've worked with SCRUM before,
              > but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
              > using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
              > JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
              > some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
              > communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
              > the process as a whole.
              >
              > I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
              > approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?
              >
              > Best regards,
              >
              > -Michael
              >

              --

              Michael Dowling
              mdowling@...
              PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
              415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
              www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com
            • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
              Anyone interested, I find developers to be the most fearful of incremental development (without admitting). You mean I have to revisit my code? I thought I
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
              • 0 Attachment

                Anyone interested,

                 

                I find developers to be the most fearful of incremental development (without admitting).

                 

                "You mean I have to revisit my code? I thought I was done with that..."

                 

                David Roberts

                InnovaSystems

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                Sent
                :
                Monday, April 05, 2004 12:28 PM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                 

                Hi Michael--

                I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing
                Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn't get them to
                initially accept the idea that we didn't need to think up all the
                requirements upfront. To get the project moving I had them do a two week
                "Requirements Capture Sprint" which focused just on getting initial
                requirements written down. We still went very lightweight, using much of the
                advice in Cockburn's "Effective Use Cases" book. They also couldn't get
                around the idea that there'd be no upfront architecting so we did another
                two week "Analysis and Design Sprint" (ADS) that was intended to allay that
                fear.

                Some advice:
                --realize this is a crutch and try to stop it as soon as you can. I never
                had to do it more than once, right at the start. By the second project no
                one needed it.
                --It does work well so there's no problem with it, except developers could
                be tempted to turn it into 4 weeks then 6, then 8.
                --Although when I've done a Requirements Capture Sprint in the past I've
                done it with use cases, I'd probably do it these days with it even shorter
                (1 week instead of 2) and use stories instead of use cases.

                This is written up (in only slightly more detail) in a paper I did for IEEE
                Computer last year. You can read it at:
                http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles.php and select "Introducing An
                Agile Process to an Organization."

                Good luck,

                --Mike Cohn
                Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                www.userstories.com


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                Hey all:

                The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
                development teams, and so far so good!  I've worked with SCRUM before,
                but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
                using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
                JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
                some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
                communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
                the process as a whole.

                I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
                approach, and what their results were?  Any recommendations?

                Best regards,

                -Michael

                --

                Michael Dowling
                mdowling@...
                PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
                415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
                www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com




                To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                Yahoo! Groups Links







                To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...




              • Mike Cohn
                Michael-- For the most part you really want to do all that analysis work as part of the sprint. Keep in mind that requirements are like inventory and we don t
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Michael--
                  For the most part you really want to do all that analysis work as part of
                  the sprint. Keep in mind that requirements are like inventory and we don't
                  want to pile up too much inventory that may never turn into finished
                  software. Plus, if you do it too soon you lose the ability to have new
                  learning impact those requirements and the knowledge goes stale quite
                  quickly. A couple of short, to-the-point, upfront conversations don't hurt
                  but when you start writing it all down, referring back to it, pointing to it
                  as though it means something, then you've done too much requirements work
                  upfront.

                  --Mike Cohn
                  Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                  www.userstories.com


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                  Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                  > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
                  > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
                  > prioritized with the rest?

                  So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to be
                  prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
                  done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
                  lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team). This is why I
                  assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
                  requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during this
                  time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
                  unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important. From there one can
                  pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what the
                  heck one wants.

                  I know - this does sound a little waterfallish. But think of it this
                  way - collaborative waterfall. JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
                  members of a JAD team collaborate on the project. You're just
                  "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next. And SCRUM
                  allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.


                  > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
                  > www.netobjectives.com
                  > DrDan@...
                  > office: 425-269-8628

                  Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
                  lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques? You guys did
                  a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
                  better design. Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
                  (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me! :) ).


                  --

                  Michael Dowling
                  mdowling@...
                  PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
                  415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
                  www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com



                  To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • Dan Rawsthorne
                  Yes, Analyze XXX is a backlog item. One wouldn t do it unless XXX had a high enough priority to do it, right? In a system where we think of 50 use cases up
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Yes, "Analyze XXX" is a backlog item. One wouldn't do it unless XXX had
                    a high enough priority to do it, right? In a system where we think of 50
                    use cases up front we don't analyze all of them up front, we analyze
                    them as we go.

                    So, these analysis tasks must be on somebody's backlog. If that somebody
                    is another, analysis, team, that's ok, but I prefer my team to be one,
                    big, happy, one - including analysts, coders, testers, etc - with one,
                    big, happy product backlog...

                    Dan ;-)

                    Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
                    www.netobjectives.com
                    DrDan@...
                    office: 425-269-8628

                    Net Objectives' vision is effective software development without
                    suffering. Our mission is to assist software development teams in
                    accomplishing this through a combination of training and mentoring.


                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                    > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
                    > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies
                    >
                    > > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
                    > > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
                    > > prioritized with the rest?
                    >
                    > So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to
                    be
                    > prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
                    > done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
                    > lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team). This is why I
                    > assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
                    > requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during
                    this
                    > time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
                    > unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important. From there one can
                    > pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what
                    the
                    > heck one wants.
                    >
                    > I know - this does sound a little waterfallish. But think of it this
                    > way - collaborative waterfall. JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
                    > members of a JAD team collaborate on the project. You're just
                    > "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next. And
                    SCRUM
                    > allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.
                    >
                    >
                    > > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
                    > > www.netobjectives.com
                    > > DrDan@...
                    > > office: 425-269-8628
                    >
                    > Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
                    > lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques? You guys
                    did
                    > a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
                    > better design. Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
                    > (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me!
                    :) ).
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    >
                    > Michael Dowling
                    > mdowling@...
                    > PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
                    > 415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
                    > www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com *
                    > www.outandabout.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-
                    > unsubscribe@...
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ______________________________________________________________________
                    > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
                    > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
                    > ______________________________________________________________________
                  • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
                    Michael, I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come after you ve developed something. You re lucky if otherwise is true for you. I
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment

                      Michael,

                       

                      I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

                       

                      I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

                       

                      What did you mean when you said: "You're just "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next".

                      What are these phases?

                       

                      David Roberts

                      TRMS Technical Lead

                      (619) 368-9621

                       

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                      Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                       

                      > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
                      > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
                      > prioritized with the rest?

                      So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to be
                      prioritized?  That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
                      done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
                      lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team).  This is why I
                      assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
                      requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during this
                      time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
                      unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important.  From there one can
                      pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what the
                      heck one wants.

                      I know - this does sound a little waterfallish.  But think of it this
                      way - collaborative waterfall.  JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
                      members of a JAD team collaborate on the project.  You're just
                      "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next.  And SCRUM
                      allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.


                      > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
                      > www.netobjectives.com
                      > DrDan@...
                      > office: 425-269-8628

                      Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
                      lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques?  You guys did
                      a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
                      better design.  Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
                      (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me!  :) ).


                      --

                      Michael Dowling
                      mdowling@...
                      PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
                      415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
                      www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com



                      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



                    • Mike Cohn
                      I have successfully used: --cards --a wiki --rows in Excel --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a record) My preference is for cards
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I have successfully used:

                        --cards
                        --a wiki
                        --rows in Excel
                        --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a record)

                        My preference is for cards whenever we're collocated. I want to try out
                        XPlanner and VersionOne sometime but haven't tried either yet.

                        --Mike Cohn
                        Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                        www.userstories.com


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                        Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 4:53 PM
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                        Excellent, Mike. For us, its going to take some time to "sprint"
                        everything. Although - for us, having 2-week requirements gathering
                        might be a bit much. 1 week max I would hope. But I see your point -
                        the basic framework can be applied to each phase, slightly customized
                        given the context.

                        We're also considering the use of XPlanner as a tool (www.xplanner.org)
                        to help us track our sprints and create burn graphs for management much
                        easier. I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
                        to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it). Basic
                        requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.

                        What have you had success in?

                        Thank you for your comments - much appreciated!

                        -Michael

                        Mike Cohn wrote:

                        > Hi Michael--
                        >
                        > I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing
                        > Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn't get them to
                        > initially accept the idea that we didn't need to think up all the
                        > requirements upfront. To get the project moving I had them do a two week
                        > "Requirements Capture Sprint" which focused just on getting initial
                        > requirements written down. We still went very lightweight, using much of
                        the
                        > advice in Cockburn's "Effective Use Cases" book. They also couldn't get
                        > around the idea that there'd be no upfront architecting so we did another
                        > two week "Analysis and Design Sprint" (ADS) that was intended to allay
                        that
                        > fear.
                        >
                        > Some advice:
                        > --realize this is a crutch and try to stop it as soon as you can. I never
                        > had to do it more than once, right at the start. By the second project no
                        > one needed it.
                        > --It does work well so there's no problem with it, except developers could
                        > be tempted to turn it into 4 weeks then 6, then 8.
                        > --Although when I've done a Requirements Capture Sprint in the past I've
                        > done it with use cases, I'd probably do it these days with it even shorter
                        > (1 week instead of 2) and use stories instead of use cases.
                        >
                        > This is written up (in only slightly more detail) in a paper I did for
                        IEEE
                        > Computer last year. You can read it at:
                        > http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles.php and select "Introducing
                        An
                        > Agile Process to an Organization."
                        >
                        > Good luck,
                        >
                        > --Mike Cohn
                        > Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                        > www.userstories.com
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                        > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
                        > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies
                        >
                        > Hey all:
                        >
                        > The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
                        > development teams, and so far so good! I've worked with SCRUM before,
                        > but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
                        > using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
                        > JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
                        > some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
                        > communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
                        > the process as a whole.
                        >
                        > I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
                        > approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?
                        >
                        > Best regards,
                        >
                        > -Michael
                        >

                        --

                        Michael Dowling
                        mdowling@...
                        PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
                        415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
                        www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com




                        To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                        scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • Ron Jeffries
                        ... Isn t that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even more often? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Anyone can make the simple
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 9:23:18 PM, Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13) wrote:

                          > I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come
                          > after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

                          > I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave
                          > thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves
                          > thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

                          Isn't that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even
                          more often?

                          Ron Jeffries
                          www.XProgramming.com
                          Anyone can make the simple complicated.
                          Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
                        • Jens Ƙstergaard
                          I ve used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want ... Basic ... Hi Michael I have had absolutely no problem using excel and find that it works vey
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
                            > to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it).
                            Basic
                            > requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.
                            >

                            Hi Michael

                            I have had absolutely no problem using excel and find that it works
                            vey well. If a team needs additional material for coordination, they
                            figure it out themselves.

                            If you sign in and look under files, I have posted an example of a
                            sprintlog that we use.

                            Jens
                          • Reginald Braithwaite-Lee
                            ... Whenever possible, I like to use corkboards or whiteboards. I m considering using a projector and a dedicated PC on my next project for things that don t
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- Mike Cohn <mike@...> wrote:
                              > I have successfully used:
                              >
                              > --cards
                              > --a wiki
                              > --rows in Excel
                              > --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a
                              > record)

                              Whenever possible, I like to use corkboards or whiteboards. I'm
                              considering using a projector and a dedicated PC on my next project for
                              things that don't work well on paper.

                              http://www.braithwaite-lee.com/opinions/cork-board.html

                              --
                              Reginald Braithwaite-Lee
                              http://www.braithwaite-lee.com

                              "Even when my proposals are seen as significant improvements, they are
                              often rejected on the grounds that they are not intuitive. It is a
                              classic Catch-22: The client wants something that is significantly
                              superior to the competition. But if it is to be superior, it must be
                              different. (Typically, the greater the improvement, the greater the
                              difference.) Therefore, it cannot be intuitive, that is, familiar. What
                              the client wants is an interface with at most marginal differences from
                              current practice... that, somehow, makes a major improvement." --Jef
                              Raskin


                              __________________________________
                              Do you Yahoo!?
                              Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
                              http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
                            • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
                              I would say so. That s why we do empirical. David Roberts TRMS Technical Lead (619) 368-9621 ... From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@XProgramming.com] Sent:
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment

                                I would say so. That's why we do empirical.

                                 

                                David Roberts

                                TRMS Technical Lead

                                (619) 368-9621

                                 

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 7:23 PM
                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                                 

                                On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 9:23:18 PM, Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13) wrote:

                                > I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come
                                > after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

                                > I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave
                                > thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves
                                > thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

                                Isn't that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even
                                more often?

                                Ron Jeffries
                                www.XProgramming.com
                                Anyone can make the simple complicated.
                                Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus



                                To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



                              • Claude Montpetit
                                We just implemented a Scrum process and there are many stories that were added just for requirement analysis. This became necessary because the product is
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  We just implemented a Scrum process and there are many stories that
                                  were added just for requirement analysis. This became necessary
                                  because the product is already sold and installed at some customer
                                  locations (a server product). These customers have custom
                                  requirements that we do for them and they (generally) pay us. So we
                                  need to estimate the work required for it. Producing an estimate is
                                  therefore a story that must be prioritized. Once the estimate is
                                  completed and the quote sent to the customer, another story is created
                                  in the product backlog:

                                  Implement request X for customer Y based on estimate Z

                                  Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                                  deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                                  sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                                  quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                                  would in theory start very late:

                                  - month 1: submit the request
                                  - month 2: produce the estimate
                                  - month 3: implement the request

                                  This is not practical of course so we have been inserting estimates in
                                  the current sprint and informed the customer that he must decide in
                                  the current month whether he wants to go ahead or not if he wants it
                                  to be done in the next sprint.

                                  One of the strongest problem I had (and still have) implementing this
                                  process was to convince people outside of the development team
                                  (client, marketing, sales) that they should know about details of the
                                  products (bugs, certain improvements that look "too technical"...)

                                  Once the product backlog was transfered to "clients", and when I asked
                                  them to prioritize items, they thought that there was too many
                                  details. I then realized that they felt this way because they did not
                                  understand the product enough, and that the development team had been
                                  driving the product on their own since day one. Changing this around
                                  is a real challenge. For this reason, I am currently acting as both
                                  the Scrum master and the product owner until I can find someone
                                  outside the dev team that will take the product owner role and manage
                                  priorities.

                                  But overall, the implementation of a well defined process (Scrum) has
                                  been welcomed by the client/marketing/sales side as they know what we
                                  are working on now and they have control on what is next.

                                  -
                                  Claude Montpetit
                                  http://www.montpetit.net
                                • Ron Jeffries
                                  ... The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you could just
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                                    > Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                                    > deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                                    > sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                                    > quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                                    > would in theory start very late:

                                    The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                                    hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you
                                    could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig / chicken rule
                                    in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer should be.

                                    On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that often
                                    things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...

                                    Ron Jeffries
                                    www.XProgramming.com
                                    Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                                  • Mike Cohn
                                    If these are truly one or two at a time I handle them in the next morning s Daily Scrum. We ll do the Scrum meeting as normal then everyone will stay for a few
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      If these are truly one or two at a time I handle them in the next morning's
                                      Daily Scrum. We'll do the Scrum meeting as normal then everyone will stay
                                      for a few minutes and we'll estimate a story or two from the previous day or
                                      that came up early in the morning.

                                      We routinely also slip in an occasional one-hour estimating session in each
                                      sprint just to look outward at future stories. That will eventually stop but
                                      we're working through a large backlog of unestimated stories.

                                      --Mike Cohn
                                      Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                                      www.userstories.com

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                      Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 6:04 PM
                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum and requirements (was Re: SCRUM
                                      process with other methodologies)

                                      On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                                      > Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                                      > deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                                      > sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                                      > quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                                      > would in theory start very late:

                                      The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                                      hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you
                                      could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig / chicken rule
                                      in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer should be.

                                      On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that often
                                      things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...

                                      Ron Jeffries
                                      www.XProgramming.com
                                      Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear



                                      To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                      scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    • Claude Montpetit
                                      Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to establish a fixed
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post
                                        were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to
                                        establish a fixed price bid for some requested product extensions.
                                        Because they are for fixed price extensions, these estimation
                                        requests become stories on their own as opposed to the rough estimates
                                        that we set on most stories that enter the backlog.

                                        (I have personnally never worked on a team that can produce such
                                        estimates at a rate of hundred per day... must be great though ;)

                                        Claude

                                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                                        <ronjeffries@X...> wrote:
                                        > On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:
                                        >
                                        >>Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                                        >>deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                                        >>sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                                        >>quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                                        >>would in theory start very late:
                                        >
                                        >The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                                        >hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an
                                        estimate, you
                                        >could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig
                                        > / chicken rule in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer
                                        should be.
                                        >
                                        >On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that
                                        >often things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...
                                        >
                                        > Ron Jeffries
                                        > www.XProgramming.com
                                        > Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                                      • Ron Jeffries
                                        ... Yes. If it s a whole product, that would take a half-day or a day. I m talking about story estimates. If the group is commonly called upon to do that, I
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Apr 7, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 11:33:23 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                                          > Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post
                                          > were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to
                                          > establish a fixed price bid for some requested product extensions.
                                          > Because they are for fixed price extensions, these estimation
                                          > requests become stories on their own as opposed to the rough estimates
                                          > that we set on most stories that enter the backlog.

                                          > (I have personnally never worked on a team that can produce such
                                          > estimates at a rate of hundred per day... must be great though ;)

                                          Yes. If it's a whole product, that would take a half-day or a day. I'm
                                          talking about story estimates.

                                          If the group is commonly called upon to do that, I guess I'd just plan for
                                          it in the team's velocity.

                                          Ron Jeffries
                                          www.XProgramming.com
                                          Accroche toi a ton reve. --ELO
                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.