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RE: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

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  • Mike Cohn
    Hi Michael-- I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn t get them to
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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      Hi Michael--

      I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing
      Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn't get them to
      initially accept the idea that we didn't need to think up all the
      requirements upfront. To get the project moving I had them do a two week
      "Requirements Capture Sprint" which focused just on getting initial
      requirements written down. We still went very lightweight, using much of the
      advice in Cockburn's "Effective Use Cases" book. They also couldn't get
      around the idea that there'd be no upfront architecting so we did another
      two week "Analysis and Design Sprint" (ADS) that was intended to allay that
      fear.

      Some advice:
      --realize this is a crutch and try to stop it as soon as you can. I never
      had to do it more than once, right at the start. By the second project no
      one needed it.
      --It does work well so there's no problem with it, except developers could
      be tempted to turn it into 4 weeks then 6, then 8.
      --Although when I've done a Requirements Capture Sprint in the past I've
      done it with use cases, I'd probably do it these days with it even shorter
      (1 week instead of 2) and use stories instead of use cases.

      This is written up (in only slightly more detail) in a paper I did for IEEE
      Computer last year. You can read it at:
      http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles.php and select "Introducing An
      Agile Process to an Organization."

      Good luck,

      --Mike Cohn
      Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
      www.userstories.com


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
      Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

      Hey all:

      The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
      development teams, and so far so good! I've worked with SCRUM before,
      but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
      using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
      JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
      some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
      communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
      the process as a whole.

      I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
      approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?

      Best regards,

      -Michael

      --

      Michael Dowling
      mdowling@...
      PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
      415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
      www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com




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    • Ron Jeffries
      ... Which approach? Using Scrum? Or using Scrum plus a bunch of artifacts from other methods? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Computers are useless. They can
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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        On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 2:42:14 PM, Michael Dowling wrote:

        > The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
        > development teams, and so far so good! I've worked with SCRUM before,
        > but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
        > using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
        > JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
        > some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
        > communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
        > the process as a whole.

        > I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
        > approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?

        Which approach? Using Scrum? Or using Scrum plus a bunch of artifacts from
        other methods?

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -- Picasso
      • Michael Dowling
        ... So, basically Gather Requirements on Feature X be a backlog item to be prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be done on a
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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          > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
          > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
          > prioritized with the rest?

          So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to be
          prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
          done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
          lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team). This is why I
          assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
          requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during this
          time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
          unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important. From there one can
          pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what the
          heck one wants.

          I know - this does sound a little waterfallish. But think of it this
          way - collaborative waterfall. JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
          members of a JAD team collaborate on the project. You're just
          "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next. And SCRUM
          allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.


          > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
          > www.netobjectives.com
          > DrDan@...
          > office: 425-269-8628

          Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
          lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques? You guys did
          a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
          better design. Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
          (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me! :) ).


          --

          Michael Dowling
          mdowling@...
          PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
          415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
          www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com
        • Michael Dowling
          ... Using SCRUM alongside artifacts and process from other methods :) -Michael -- Michael Dowling mdowling@planetoutpartners.com PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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            >>I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
            >>approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?
            >
            >
            > Which approach? Using Scrum? Or using Scrum plus a bunch of artifacts from
            > other methods?

            Using SCRUM alongside artifacts and process from other methods :)

            -Michael

            --

            Michael Dowling
            mdowling@...
            PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
            415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
            www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com
          • Ron Jeffries
            ... Ah. Yes and no. I use Scrum-style planning along with practices from XP. (We call that XP.) I ve seen many projects using XP, or Scrum, with a few random
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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              On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 4:49:13 PM, Michael Dowling wrote:

              >>>I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
              >>>approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?
              >>
              >>
              >> Which approach? Using Scrum? Or using Scrum plus a bunch of artifacts from
              >> other methods?

              > Using SCRUM alongside artifacts and process from other methods :)

              Ah. Yes and no. I use Scrum-style planning along with practices from XP.
              (We call that XP.) I've seen many projects using XP, or Scrum, with a few
              random artifacts that they found that they liked and wanted.

              If this is done because some aspect of the project needs that artifact,
              well and good. If it is done because it is believe that all projects
              "should", this is, in my strong opinion, a mistake. Not all project do need
              those things.

              It's best to get down to specifics when it comes to agile methods, namely
              to consider a specific project and a specific artifact or practices, and
              whether that project should, or should not, do that thing.

              Since real Scrum projects ship real software every month, many artifacts
              become redundant. Others, such as up front considerations, may or may not.

              With a more specific question, I'd have a more specific answer. In general,
              my answer is that in general, Scrum is perfectly safe as it stands and is a
              good place to start. It will provide feedback that will let you assess, for
              each project, whether it should produce other materials.

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              Hold on to your dream. --ELO
            • Michael Dowling
              Excellent, Mike. For us, its going to take some time to sprint everything. Although - for us, having 2-week requirements gathering might be a bit much. 1
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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                Excellent, Mike. For us, its going to take some time to "sprint"
                everything. Although - for us, having 2-week requirements gathering
                might be a bit much. 1 week max I would hope. But I see your point -
                the basic framework can be applied to each phase, slightly customized
                given the context.

                We're also considering the use of XPlanner as a tool (www.xplanner.org)
                to help us track our sprints and create burn graphs for management much
                easier. I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
                to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it). Basic
                requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.

                What have you had success in?

                Thank you for your comments - much appreciated!

                -Michael

                Mike Cohn wrote:

                > Hi Michael--
                >
                > I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing
                > Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn't get them to
                > initially accept the idea that we didn't need to think up all the
                > requirements upfront. To get the project moving I had them do a two week
                > "Requirements Capture Sprint" which focused just on getting initial
                > requirements written down. We still went very lightweight, using much of the
                > advice in Cockburn's "Effective Use Cases" book. They also couldn't get
                > around the idea that there'd be no upfront architecting so we did another
                > two week "Analysis and Design Sprint" (ADS) that was intended to allay that
                > fear.
                >
                > Some advice:
                > --realize this is a crutch and try to stop it as soon as you can. I never
                > had to do it more than once, right at the start. By the second project no
                > one needed it.
                > --It does work well so there's no problem with it, except developers could
                > be tempted to turn it into 4 weeks then 6, then 8.
                > --Although when I've done a Requirements Capture Sprint in the past I've
                > done it with use cases, I'd probably do it these days with it even shorter
                > (1 week instead of 2) and use stories instead of use cases.
                >
                > This is written up (in only slightly more detail) in a paper I did for IEEE
                > Computer last year. You can read it at:
                > http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles.php and select "Introducing An
                > Agile Process to an Organization."
                >
                > Good luck,
                >
                > --Mike Cohn
                > Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                > www.userstories.com
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
                > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies
                >
                > Hey all:
                >
                > The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
                > development teams, and so far so good! I've worked with SCRUM before,
                > but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
                > using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
                > JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
                > some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
                > communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
                > the process as a whole.
                >
                > I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
                > approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?
                >
                > Best regards,
                >
                > -Michael
                >

                --

                Michael Dowling
                mdowling@...
                PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
                415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
                www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com
              • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
                Anyone interested, I find developers to be the most fearful of incremental development (without admitting). You mean I have to revisit my code? I thought I
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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                  Anyone interested,

                   

                  I find developers to be the most fearful of incremental development (without admitting).

                   

                  "You mean I have to revisit my code? I thought I was done with that..."

                   

                  David Roberts

                  InnovaSystems

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                  Sent
                  :
                  Monday, April 05, 2004 12:28 PM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                   

                  Hi Michael--

                  I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing
                  Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn't get them to
                  initially accept the idea that we didn't need to think up all the
                  requirements upfront. To get the project moving I had them do a two week
                  "Requirements Capture Sprint" which focused just on getting initial
                  requirements written down. We still went very lightweight, using much of the
                  advice in Cockburn's "Effective Use Cases" book. They also couldn't get
                  around the idea that there'd be no upfront architecting so we did another
                  two week "Analysis and Design Sprint" (ADS) that was intended to allay that
                  fear.

                  Some advice:
                  --realize this is a crutch and try to stop it as soon as you can. I never
                  had to do it more than once, right at the start. By the second project no
                  one needed it.
                  --It does work well so there's no problem with it, except developers could
                  be tempted to turn it into 4 weeks then 6, then 8.
                  --Although when I've done a Requirements Capture Sprint in the past I've
                  done it with use cases, I'd probably do it these days with it even shorter
                  (1 week instead of 2) and use stories instead of use cases.

                  This is written up (in only slightly more detail) in a paper I did for IEEE
                  Computer last year. You can read it at:
                  http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles.php and select "Introducing An
                  Agile Process to an Organization."

                  Good luck,

                  --Mike Cohn
                  Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                  www.userstories.com


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                  Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                  Hey all:

                  The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
                  development teams, and so far so good!  I've worked with SCRUM before,
                  but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
                  using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
                  JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
                  some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
                  communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
                  the process as a whole.

                  I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
                  approach, and what their results were?  Any recommendations?

                  Best regards,

                  -Michael

                  --

                  Michael Dowling
                  mdowling@...
                  PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
                  415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
                  www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com




                  To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                  Yahoo! Groups Links







                  To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...




                • Mike Cohn
                  Michael-- For the most part you really want to do all that analysis work as part of the sprint. Keep in mind that requirements are like inventory and we don t
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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                    Michael--
                    For the most part you really want to do all that analysis work as part of
                    the sprint. Keep in mind that requirements are like inventory and we don't
                    want to pile up too much inventory that may never turn into finished
                    software. Plus, if you do it too soon you lose the ability to have new
                    learning impact those requirements and the knowledge goes stale quite
                    quickly. A couple of short, to-the-point, upfront conversations don't hurt
                    but when you start writing it all down, referring back to it, pointing to it
                    as though it means something, then you've done too much requirements work
                    upfront.

                    --Mike Cohn
                    Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                    www.userstories.com


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                    Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                    > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
                    > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
                    > prioritized with the rest?

                    So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to be
                    prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
                    done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
                    lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team). This is why I
                    assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
                    requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during this
                    time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
                    unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important. From there one can
                    pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what the
                    heck one wants.

                    I know - this does sound a little waterfallish. But think of it this
                    way - collaborative waterfall. JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
                    members of a JAD team collaborate on the project. You're just
                    "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next. And SCRUM
                    allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.


                    > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
                    > www.netobjectives.com
                    > DrDan@...
                    > office: 425-269-8628

                    Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
                    lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques? You guys did
                    a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
                    better design. Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
                    (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me! :) ).


                    --

                    Michael Dowling
                    mdowling@...
                    PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
                    415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
                    www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com



                    To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • Dan Rawsthorne
                    Yes, Analyze XXX is a backlog item. One wouldn t do it unless XXX had a high enough priority to do it, right? In a system where we think of 50 use cases up
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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                      Yes, "Analyze XXX" is a backlog item. One wouldn't do it unless XXX had
                      a high enough priority to do it, right? In a system where we think of 50
                      use cases up front we don't analyze all of them up front, we analyze
                      them as we go.

                      So, these analysis tasks must be on somebody's backlog. If that somebody
                      is another, analysis, team, that's ok, but I prefer my team to be one,
                      big, happy, one - including analysts, coders, testers, etc - with one,
                      big, happy product backlog...

                      Dan ;-)

                      Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
                      www.netobjectives.com
                      DrDan@...
                      office: 425-269-8628

                      Net Objectives' vision is effective software development without
                      suffering. Our mission is to assist software development teams in
                      accomplishing this through a combination of training and mentoring.


                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                      > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
                      > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies
                      >
                      > > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
                      > > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
                      > > prioritized with the rest?
                      >
                      > So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to
                      be
                      > prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
                      > done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
                      > lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team). This is why I
                      > assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
                      > requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during
                      this
                      > time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
                      > unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important. From there one can
                      > pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what
                      the
                      > heck one wants.
                      >
                      > I know - this does sound a little waterfallish. But think of it this
                      > way - collaborative waterfall. JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
                      > members of a JAD team collaborate on the project. You're just
                      > "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next. And
                      SCRUM
                      > allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.
                      >
                      >
                      > > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
                      > > www.netobjectives.com
                      > > DrDan@...
                      > > office: 425-269-8628
                      >
                      > Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
                      > lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques? You guys
                      did
                      > a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
                      > better design. Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
                      > (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me!
                      :) ).
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      >
                      > Michael Dowling
                      > mdowling@...
                      > PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
                      > 415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
                      > www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com *
                      > www.outandabout.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-
                      > unsubscribe@...
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ______________________________________________________________________
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                    • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
                      Michael, I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come after you ve developed something. You re lucky if otherwise is true for you. I
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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                        Michael,

                         

                        I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

                         

                        I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

                         

                        What did you mean when you said: "You're just "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next".

                        What are these phases?

                         

                        David Roberts

                        TRMS Technical Lead

                        (619) 368-9621

                         

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                        Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                         

                        > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
                        > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
                        > prioritized with the rest?

                        So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to be
                        prioritized?  That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
                        done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
                        lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team).  This is why I
                        assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
                        requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during this
                        time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
                        unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important.  From there one can
                        pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what the
                        heck one wants.

                        I know - this does sound a little waterfallish.  But think of it this
                        way - collaborative waterfall.  JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
                        members of a JAD team collaborate on the project.  You're just
                        "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next.  And SCRUM
                        allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.


                        > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
                        > www.netobjectives.com
                        > DrDan@...
                        > office: 425-269-8628

                        Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
                        lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques?  You guys did
                        a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
                        better design.  Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
                        (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me!  :) ).


                        --

                        Michael Dowling
                        mdowling@...
                        PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
                        415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
                        www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com



                        To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



                      • Mike Cohn
                        I have successfully used: --cards --a wiki --rows in Excel --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a record) My preference is for cards
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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                          I have successfully used:

                          --cards
                          --a wiki
                          --rows in Excel
                          --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a record)

                          My preference is for cards whenever we're collocated. I want to try out
                          XPlanner and VersionOne sometime but haven't tried either yet.

                          --Mike Cohn
                          Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                          www.userstories.com


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                          Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 4:53 PM
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                          Excellent, Mike. For us, its going to take some time to "sprint"
                          everything. Although - for us, having 2-week requirements gathering
                          might be a bit much. 1 week max I would hope. But I see your point -
                          the basic framework can be applied to each phase, slightly customized
                          given the context.

                          We're also considering the use of XPlanner as a tool (www.xplanner.org)
                          to help us track our sprints and create burn graphs for management much
                          easier. I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
                          to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it). Basic
                          requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.

                          What have you had success in?

                          Thank you for your comments - much appreciated!

                          -Michael

                          Mike Cohn wrote:

                          > Hi Michael--
                          >
                          > I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing
                          > Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn't get them to
                          > initially accept the idea that we didn't need to think up all the
                          > requirements upfront. To get the project moving I had them do a two week
                          > "Requirements Capture Sprint" which focused just on getting initial
                          > requirements written down. We still went very lightweight, using much of
                          the
                          > advice in Cockburn's "Effective Use Cases" book. They also couldn't get
                          > around the idea that there'd be no upfront architecting so we did another
                          > two week "Analysis and Design Sprint" (ADS) that was intended to allay
                          that
                          > fear.
                          >
                          > Some advice:
                          > --realize this is a crutch and try to stop it as soon as you can. I never
                          > had to do it more than once, right at the start. By the second project no
                          > one needed it.
                          > --It does work well so there's no problem with it, except developers could
                          > be tempted to turn it into 4 weeks then 6, then 8.
                          > --Although when I've done a Requirements Capture Sprint in the past I've
                          > done it with use cases, I'd probably do it these days with it even shorter
                          > (1 week instead of 2) and use stories instead of use cases.
                          >
                          > This is written up (in only slightly more detail) in a paper I did for
                          IEEE
                          > Computer last year. You can read it at:
                          > http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles.php and select "Introducing
                          An
                          > Agile Process to an Organization."
                          >
                          > Good luck,
                          >
                          > --Mike Cohn
                          > Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                          > www.userstories.com
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                          > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
                          > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies
                          >
                          > Hey all:
                          >
                          > The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
                          > development teams, and so far so good! I've worked with SCRUM before,
                          > but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
                          > using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
                          > JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
                          > some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
                          > communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
                          > the process as a whole.
                          >
                          > I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
                          > approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?
                          >
                          > Best regards,
                          >
                          > -Michael
                          >

                          --

                          Michael Dowling
                          mdowling@...
                          PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
                          415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
                          www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com




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                        • Ron Jeffries
                          ... Isn t that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even more often? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Anyone can make the simple
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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                            On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 9:23:18 PM, Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13) wrote:

                            > I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come
                            > after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

                            > I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave
                            > thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves
                            > thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

                            Isn't that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even
                            more often?

                            Ron Jeffries
                            www.XProgramming.com
                            Anyone can make the simple complicated.
                            Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
                          • Jens Ƙstergaard
                            I ve used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want ... Basic ... Hi Michael I have had absolutely no problem using excel and find that it works vey
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                              I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
                              > to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it).
                              Basic
                              > requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.
                              >

                              Hi Michael

                              I have had absolutely no problem using excel and find that it works
                              vey well. If a team needs additional material for coordination, they
                              figure it out themselves.

                              If you sign in and look under files, I have posted an example of a
                              sprintlog that we use.

                              Jens
                            • Reginald Braithwaite-Lee
                              ... Whenever possible, I like to use corkboards or whiteboards. I m considering using a projector and a dedicated PC on my next project for things that don t
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                                --- Mike Cohn <mike@...> wrote:
                                > I have successfully used:
                                >
                                > --cards
                                > --a wiki
                                > --rows in Excel
                                > --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a
                                > record)

                                Whenever possible, I like to use corkboards or whiteboards. I'm
                                considering using a projector and a dedicated PC on my next project for
                                things that don't work well on paper.

                                http://www.braithwaite-lee.com/opinions/cork-board.html

                                --
                                Reginald Braithwaite-Lee
                                http://www.braithwaite-lee.com

                                "Even when my proposals are seen as significant improvements, they are
                                often rejected on the grounds that they are not intuitive. It is a
                                classic Catch-22: The client wants something that is significantly
                                superior to the competition. But if it is to be superior, it must be
                                different. (Typically, the greater the improvement, the greater the
                                difference.) Therefore, it cannot be intuitive, that is, familiar. What
                                the client wants is an interface with at most marginal differences from
                                current practice... that, somehow, makes a major improvement." --Jef
                                Raskin


                                __________________________________
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                              • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
                                I would say so. That s why we do empirical. David Roberts TRMS Technical Lead (619) 368-9621 ... From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@XProgramming.com] Sent:
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                                  I would say so. That's why we do empirical.

                                   

                                  David Roberts

                                  TRMS Technical Lead

                                  (619) 368-9621

                                   

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                  Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 7:23 PM
                                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                                   

                                  On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 9:23:18 PM, Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13) wrote:

                                  > I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come
                                  > after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

                                  > I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave
                                  > thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves
                                  > thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

                                  Isn't that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even
                                  more often?

                                  Ron Jeffries
                                  www.XProgramming.com
                                  Anyone can make the simple complicated.
                                  Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus



                                  To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



                                • Claude Montpetit
                                  We just implemented a Scrum process and there are many stories that were added just for requirement analysis. This became necessary because the product is
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                                    We just implemented a Scrum process and there are many stories that
                                    were added just for requirement analysis. This became necessary
                                    because the product is already sold and installed at some customer
                                    locations (a server product). These customers have custom
                                    requirements that we do for them and they (generally) pay us. So we
                                    need to estimate the work required for it. Producing an estimate is
                                    therefore a story that must be prioritized. Once the estimate is
                                    completed and the quote sent to the customer, another story is created
                                    in the product backlog:

                                    Implement request X for customer Y based on estimate Z

                                    Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                                    deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                                    sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                                    quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                                    would in theory start very late:

                                    - month 1: submit the request
                                    - month 2: produce the estimate
                                    - month 3: implement the request

                                    This is not practical of course so we have been inserting estimates in
                                    the current sprint and informed the customer that he must decide in
                                    the current month whether he wants to go ahead or not if he wants it
                                    to be done in the next sprint.

                                    One of the strongest problem I had (and still have) implementing this
                                    process was to convince people outside of the development team
                                    (client, marketing, sales) that they should know about details of the
                                    products (bugs, certain improvements that look "too technical"...)

                                    Once the product backlog was transfered to "clients", and when I asked
                                    them to prioritize items, they thought that there was too many
                                    details. I then realized that they felt this way because they did not
                                    understand the product enough, and that the development team had been
                                    driving the product on their own since day one. Changing this around
                                    is a real challenge. For this reason, I am currently acting as both
                                    the Scrum master and the product owner until I can find someone
                                    outside the dev team that will take the product owner role and manage
                                    priorities.

                                    But overall, the implementation of a well defined process (Scrum) has
                                    been welcomed by the client/marketing/sales side as they know what we
                                    are working on now and they have control on what is next.

                                    -
                                    Claude Montpetit
                                    http://www.montpetit.net
                                  • Ron Jeffries
                                    ... The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you could just
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                                      On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                                      > Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                                      > deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                                      > sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                                      > quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                                      > would in theory start very late:

                                      The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                                      hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you
                                      could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig / chicken rule
                                      in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer should be.

                                      On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that often
                                      things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...

                                      Ron Jeffries
                                      www.XProgramming.com
                                      Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                                    • Mike Cohn
                                      If these are truly one or two at a time I handle them in the next morning s Daily Scrum. We ll do the Scrum meeting as normal then everyone will stay for a few
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                                        If these are truly one or two at a time I handle them in the next morning's
                                        Daily Scrum. We'll do the Scrum meeting as normal then everyone will stay
                                        for a few minutes and we'll estimate a story or two from the previous day or
                                        that came up early in the morning.

                                        We routinely also slip in an occasional one-hour estimating session in each
                                        sprint just to look outward at future stories. That will eventually stop but
                                        we're working through a large backlog of unestimated stories.

                                        --Mike Cohn
                                        Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                                        www.userstories.com

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                        Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 6:04 PM
                                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum and requirements (was Re: SCRUM
                                        process with other methodologies)

                                        On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                                        > Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                                        > deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                                        > sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                                        > quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                                        > would in theory start very late:

                                        The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                                        hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you
                                        could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig / chicken rule
                                        in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer should be.

                                        On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that often
                                        things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...

                                        Ron Jeffries
                                        www.XProgramming.com
                                        Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear



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                                      • Claude Montpetit
                                        Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to establish a fixed
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                                          Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post
                                          were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to
                                          establish a fixed price bid for some requested product extensions.
                                          Because they are for fixed price extensions, these estimation
                                          requests become stories on their own as opposed to the rough estimates
                                          that we set on most stories that enter the backlog.

                                          (I have personnally never worked on a team that can produce such
                                          estimates at a rate of hundred per day... must be great though ;)

                                          Claude

                                          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                                          <ronjeffries@X...> wrote:
                                          > On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:
                                          >
                                          >>Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                                          >>deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                                          >>sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                                          >>quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                                          >>would in theory start very late:
                                          >
                                          >The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                                          >hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an
                                          estimate, you
                                          >could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig
                                          > / chicken rule in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer
                                          should be.
                                          >
                                          >On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that
                                          >often things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...
                                          >
                                          > Ron Jeffries
                                          > www.XProgramming.com
                                          > Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                                        • Ron Jeffries
                                          ... Yes. If it s a whole product, that would take a half-day or a day. I m talking about story estimates. If the group is commonly called upon to do that, I
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Apr 7, 2004
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                                            On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 11:33:23 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                                            > Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post
                                            > were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to
                                            > establish a fixed price bid for some requested product extensions.
                                            > Because they are for fixed price extensions, these estimation
                                            > requests become stories on their own as opposed to the rough estimates
                                            > that we set on most stories that enter the backlog.

                                            > (I have personnally never worked on a team that can produce such
                                            > estimates at a rate of hundred per day... must be great though ;)

                                            Yes. If it's a whole product, that would take a half-day or a day. I'm
                                            talking about story estimates.

                                            If the group is commonly called upon to do that, I guess I'd just plan for
                                            it in the team's velocity.

                                            Ron Jeffries
                                            www.XProgramming.com
                                            Accroche toi a ton reve. --ELO
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