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RE: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

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  • Dan Rawsthorne
    Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren t the analysis and artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be prioritized with the
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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      Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
      artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
      prioritized with the rest?

      Dan ;-)

      Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
      www.netobjectives.com
      DrDan@...
      office: 425-269-8628

      Net Objectives' vision is effective software development without
      suffering. Our mission is to assist software development teams in
      accomplishing this through a combination of training and mentoring.


      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
      > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
      > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies
      >
      > Hey all:
      >
      > The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
      > development teams, and so far so good! I've worked with SCRUM before,
      > but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
      > using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
      > JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
      > some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for
      effective
      > communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
      > the process as a whole.
      >
      > I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
      > approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?
      >
      > Best regards,
      >
      > -Michael
      >
      > --
      >
      > Michael Dowling
      > mdowling@...
      > PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
      > 415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
      > www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com *
      > www.outandabout.com
      >
      >
      >
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    • Mike Cohn
      Hi Michael-- I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn t get them to
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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        Hi Michael--

        I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing
        Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn't get them to
        initially accept the idea that we didn't need to think up all the
        requirements upfront. To get the project moving I had them do a two week
        "Requirements Capture Sprint" which focused just on getting initial
        requirements written down. We still went very lightweight, using much of the
        advice in Cockburn's "Effective Use Cases" book. They also couldn't get
        around the idea that there'd be no upfront architecting so we did another
        two week "Analysis and Design Sprint" (ADS) that was intended to allay that
        fear.

        Some advice:
        --realize this is a crutch and try to stop it as soon as you can. I never
        had to do it more than once, right at the start. By the second project no
        one needed it.
        --It does work well so there's no problem with it, except developers could
        be tempted to turn it into 4 weeks then 6, then 8.
        --Although when I've done a Requirements Capture Sprint in the past I've
        done it with use cases, I'd probably do it these days with it even shorter
        (1 week instead of 2) and use stories instead of use cases.

        This is written up (in only slightly more detail) in a paper I did for IEEE
        Computer last year. You can read it at:
        http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles.php and select "Introducing An
        Agile Process to an Organization."

        Good luck,

        --Mike Cohn
        Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
        www.userstories.com


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
        Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

        Hey all:

        The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
        development teams, and so far so good! I've worked with SCRUM before,
        but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
        using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
        JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
        some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
        communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
        the process as a whole.

        I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
        approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?

        Best regards,

        -Michael

        --

        Michael Dowling
        mdowling@...
        PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
        415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
        www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com




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      • Ron Jeffries
        ... Which approach? Using Scrum? Or using Scrum plus a bunch of artifacts from other methods? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Computers are useless. They can
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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          On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 2:42:14 PM, Michael Dowling wrote:

          > The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
          > development teams, and so far so good! I've worked with SCRUM before,
          > but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
          > using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
          > JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
          > some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
          > communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
          > the process as a whole.

          > I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
          > approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?

          Which approach? Using Scrum? Or using Scrum plus a bunch of artifacts from
          other methods?

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -- Picasso
        • Michael Dowling
          ... So, basically Gather Requirements on Feature X be a backlog item to be prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be done on a
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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            > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
            > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
            > prioritized with the rest?

            So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to be
            prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
            done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
            lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team). This is why I
            assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
            requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during this
            time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
            unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important. From there one can
            pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what the
            heck one wants.

            I know - this does sound a little waterfallish. But think of it this
            way - collaborative waterfall. JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
            members of a JAD team collaborate on the project. You're just
            "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next. And SCRUM
            allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.


            > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
            > www.netobjectives.com
            > DrDan@...
            > office: 425-269-8628

            Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
            lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques? You guys did
            a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
            better design. Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
            (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me! :) ).


            --

            Michael Dowling
            mdowling@...
            PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
            415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
            www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com
          • Michael Dowling
            ... Using SCRUM alongside artifacts and process from other methods :) -Michael -- Michael Dowling mdowling@planetoutpartners.com PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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              >>I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
              >>approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?
              >
              >
              > Which approach? Using Scrum? Or using Scrum plus a bunch of artifacts from
              > other methods?

              Using SCRUM alongside artifacts and process from other methods :)

              -Michael

              --

              Michael Dowling
              mdowling@...
              PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
              415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
              www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com
            • Ron Jeffries
              ... Ah. Yes and no. I use Scrum-style planning along with practices from XP. (We call that XP.) I ve seen many projects using XP, or Scrum, with a few random
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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                On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 4:49:13 PM, Michael Dowling wrote:

                >>>I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
                >>>approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?
                >>
                >>
                >> Which approach? Using Scrum? Or using Scrum plus a bunch of artifacts from
                >> other methods?

                > Using SCRUM alongside artifacts and process from other methods :)

                Ah. Yes and no. I use Scrum-style planning along with practices from XP.
                (We call that XP.) I've seen many projects using XP, or Scrum, with a few
                random artifacts that they found that they liked and wanted.

                If this is done because some aspect of the project needs that artifact,
                well and good. If it is done because it is believe that all projects
                "should", this is, in my strong opinion, a mistake. Not all project do need
                those things.

                It's best to get down to specifics when it comes to agile methods, namely
                to consider a specific project and a specific artifact or practices, and
                whether that project should, or should not, do that thing.

                Since real Scrum projects ship real software every month, many artifacts
                become redundant. Others, such as up front considerations, may or may not.

                With a more specific question, I'd have a more specific answer. In general,
                my answer is that in general, Scrum is perfectly safe as it stands and is a
                good place to start. It will provide feedback that will let you assess, for
                each project, whether it should produce other materials.

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                Hold on to your dream. --ELO
              • Michael Dowling
                Excellent, Mike. For us, its going to take some time to sprint everything. Although - for us, having 2-week requirements gathering might be a bit much. 1
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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                  Excellent, Mike. For us, its going to take some time to "sprint"
                  everything. Although - for us, having 2-week requirements gathering
                  might be a bit much. 1 week max I would hope. But I see your point -
                  the basic framework can be applied to each phase, slightly customized
                  given the context.

                  We're also considering the use of XPlanner as a tool (www.xplanner.org)
                  to help us track our sprints and create burn graphs for management much
                  easier. I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
                  to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it). Basic
                  requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.

                  What have you had success in?

                  Thank you for your comments - much appreciated!

                  -Michael

                  Mike Cohn wrote:

                  > Hi Michael--
                  >
                  > I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing
                  > Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn't get them to
                  > initially accept the idea that we didn't need to think up all the
                  > requirements upfront. To get the project moving I had them do a two week
                  > "Requirements Capture Sprint" which focused just on getting initial
                  > requirements written down. We still went very lightweight, using much of the
                  > advice in Cockburn's "Effective Use Cases" book. They also couldn't get
                  > around the idea that there'd be no upfront architecting so we did another
                  > two week "Analysis and Design Sprint" (ADS) that was intended to allay that
                  > fear.
                  >
                  > Some advice:
                  > --realize this is a crutch and try to stop it as soon as you can. I never
                  > had to do it more than once, right at the start. By the second project no
                  > one needed it.
                  > --It does work well so there's no problem with it, except developers could
                  > be tempted to turn it into 4 weeks then 6, then 8.
                  > --Although when I've done a Requirements Capture Sprint in the past I've
                  > done it with use cases, I'd probably do it these days with it even shorter
                  > (1 week instead of 2) and use stories instead of use cases.
                  >
                  > This is written up (in only slightly more detail) in a paper I did for IEEE
                  > Computer last year. You can read it at:
                  > http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles.php and select "Introducing An
                  > Agile Process to an Organization."
                  >
                  > Good luck,
                  >
                  > --Mike Cohn
                  > Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                  > www.userstories.com
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                  > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
                  > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies
                  >
                  > Hey all:
                  >
                  > The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
                  > development teams, and so far so good! I've worked with SCRUM before,
                  > but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
                  > using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
                  > JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
                  > some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
                  > communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
                  > the process as a whole.
                  >
                  > I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
                  > approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?
                  >
                  > Best regards,
                  >
                  > -Michael
                  >

                  --

                  Michael Dowling
                  mdowling@...
                  PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
                  415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
                  www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com
                • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
                  Anyone interested, I find developers to be the most fearful of incremental development (without admitting). You mean I have to revisit my code? I thought I
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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                    Anyone interested,

                     

                    I find developers to be the most fearful of incremental development (without admitting).

                     

                    "You mean I have to revisit my code? I thought I was done with that..."

                     

                    David Roberts

                    InnovaSystems

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                    Sent
                    :
                    Monday, April 05, 2004 12:28 PM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                     

                    Hi Michael--

                    I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing
                    Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn't get them to
                    initially accept the idea that we didn't need to think up all the
                    requirements upfront. To get the project moving I had them do a two week
                    "Requirements Capture Sprint" which focused just on getting initial
                    requirements written down. We still went very lightweight, using much of the
                    advice in Cockburn's "Effective Use Cases" book. They also couldn't get
                    around the idea that there'd be no upfront architecting so we did another
                    two week "Analysis and Design Sprint" (ADS) that was intended to allay that
                    fear.

                    Some advice:
                    --realize this is a crutch and try to stop it as soon as you can. I never
                    had to do it more than once, right at the start. By the second project no
                    one needed it.
                    --It does work well so there's no problem with it, except developers could
                    be tempted to turn it into 4 weeks then 6, then 8.
                    --Although when I've done a Requirements Capture Sprint in the past I've
                    done it with use cases, I'd probably do it these days with it even shorter
                    (1 week instead of 2) and use stories instead of use cases.

                    This is written up (in only slightly more detail) in a paper I did for IEEE
                    Computer last year. You can read it at:
                    http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles.php and select "Introducing An
                    Agile Process to an Organization."

                    Good luck,

                    --Mike Cohn
                    Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                    www.userstories.com


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                    Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                    Hey all:

                    The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
                    development teams, and so far so good!  I've worked with SCRUM before,
                    but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
                    using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
                    JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
                    some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
                    communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
                    the process as a whole.

                    I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
                    approach, and what their results were?  Any recommendations?

                    Best regards,

                    -Michael

                    --

                    Michael Dowling
                    mdowling@...
                    PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
                    415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
                    www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com




                    To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                    Yahoo! Groups Links







                    To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...




                  • Mike Cohn
                    Michael-- For the most part you really want to do all that analysis work as part of the sprint. Keep in mind that requirements are like inventory and we don t
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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                      Michael--
                      For the most part you really want to do all that analysis work as part of
                      the sprint. Keep in mind that requirements are like inventory and we don't
                      want to pile up too much inventory that may never turn into finished
                      software. Plus, if you do it too soon you lose the ability to have new
                      learning impact those requirements and the knowledge goes stale quite
                      quickly. A couple of short, to-the-point, upfront conversations don't hurt
                      but when you start writing it all down, referring back to it, pointing to it
                      as though it means something, then you've done too much requirements work
                      upfront.

                      --Mike Cohn
                      Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                      www.userstories.com


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                      Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                      > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
                      > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
                      > prioritized with the rest?

                      So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to be
                      prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
                      done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
                      lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team). This is why I
                      assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
                      requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during this
                      time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
                      unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important. From there one can
                      pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what the
                      heck one wants.

                      I know - this does sound a little waterfallish. But think of it this
                      way - collaborative waterfall. JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
                      members of a JAD team collaborate on the project. You're just
                      "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next. And SCRUM
                      allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.


                      > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
                      > www.netobjectives.com
                      > DrDan@...
                      > office: 425-269-8628

                      Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
                      lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques? You guys did
                      a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
                      better design. Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
                      (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me! :) ).


                      --

                      Michael Dowling
                      mdowling@...
                      PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
                      415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
                      www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com



                      To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Dan Rawsthorne
                      Yes, Analyze XXX is a backlog item. One wouldn t do it unless XXX had a high enough priority to do it, right? In a system where we think of 50 use cases up
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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                        Yes, "Analyze XXX" is a backlog item. One wouldn't do it unless XXX had
                        a high enough priority to do it, right? In a system where we think of 50
                        use cases up front we don't analyze all of them up front, we analyze
                        them as we go.

                        So, these analysis tasks must be on somebody's backlog. If that somebody
                        is another, analysis, team, that's ok, but I prefer my team to be one,
                        big, happy, one - including analysts, coders, testers, etc - with one,
                        big, happy product backlog...

                        Dan ;-)

                        Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
                        www.netobjectives.com
                        DrDan@...
                        office: 425-269-8628

                        Net Objectives' vision is effective software development without
                        suffering. Our mission is to assist software development teams in
                        accomplishing this through a combination of training and mentoring.


                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                        > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
                        > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies
                        >
                        > > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
                        > > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
                        > > prioritized with the rest?
                        >
                        > So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to
                        be
                        > prioritized? That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
                        > done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
                        > lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team). This is why I
                        > assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
                        > requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during
                        this
                        > time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
                        > unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important. From there one can
                        > pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what
                        the
                        > heck one wants.
                        >
                        > I know - this does sound a little waterfallish. But think of it this
                        > way - collaborative waterfall. JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
                        > members of a JAD team collaborate on the project. You're just
                        > "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next. And
                        SCRUM
                        > allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.
                        >
                        >
                        > > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
                        > > www.netobjectives.com
                        > > DrDan@...
                        > > office: 425-269-8628
                        >
                        > Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
                        > lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques? You guys
                        did
                        > a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
                        > better design. Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
                        > (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me!
                        :) ).
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        >
                        > Michael Dowling
                        > mdowling@...
                        > PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
                        > 415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
                        > www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com *
                        > www.outandabout.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-
                        > unsubscribe@...
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ______________________________________________________________________
                        > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
                        > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
                        > ______________________________________________________________________
                      • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
                        Michael, I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come after you ve developed something. You re lucky if otherwise is true for you. I
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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                          Michael,

                           

                          I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

                           

                          I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

                           

                          What did you mean when you said: "You're just "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next".

                          What are these phases?

                           

                          David Roberts

                          TRMS Technical Lead

                          (619) 368-9621

                           

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                          Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:48 PM
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                           

                          > Sounds like it would work for me, but why aren't the analysis and
                          > artifact construction teaks part of the backlog so that they can be
                          > prioritized with the rest?

                          So, basically "Gather Requirements on Feature X" be a backlog item to be
                          prioritized?  That priority is implicit - engineering work cannot be
                          done on a "feature" or "bug" without proper analysis (be it short or
                          lengthy, depending on the organization and/or team).  This is why I
                          assume that a backlog item should already have gone through the
                          requirements phase already - it is generally, almost always during this
                          time that features and needs are found to be either a) necessary, b)
                          unnecessary, or c) nifty, but not yet important.  From there one can
                          pass it to a backlog for prioritization, but only after knowing what the
                          heck one wants.

                          I know - this does sound a little waterfallish.  But think of it this
                          way - collaborative waterfall.  JAD is similar to SCRUM whereas all
                          members of a JAD team collaborate on the project.  You're just
                          "waterfalling" the collaboration from one phase to the next.  And SCRUM
                          allows for the (certain and expected) changes in those requirements.


                          > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
                          > www.netobjectives.com
                          > DrDan@...
                          > office: 425-269-8628

                          Off-topic - hey - are you from the same group that did (does?) the
                          lectures/seminars in Bellvue on proper design techniques?  You guys did
                          a fabulous job, and with each lecture I walked away with a new idea of
                          better design.  Do you ever hold these lectures in the SF Bay Area
                          (yeah, had to return to San Francisco - Seattle was too wet for me!  :) ).


                          --

                          Michael Dowling
                          mdowling@...
                          PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
                          415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
                          www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com



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                        • Mike Cohn
                          I have successfully used: --cards --a wiki --rows in Excel --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a record) My preference is for cards
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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                            I have successfully used:

                            --cards
                            --a wiki
                            --rows in Excel
                            --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a record)

                            My preference is for cards whenever we're collocated. I want to try out
                            XPlanner and VersionOne sometime but haven't tried either yet.

                            --Mike Cohn
                            Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                            www.userstories.com


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                            Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 4:53 PM
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                            Excellent, Mike. For us, its going to take some time to "sprint"
                            everything. Although - for us, having 2-week requirements gathering
                            might be a bit much. 1 week max I would hope. But I see your point -
                            the basic framework can be applied to each phase, slightly customized
                            given the context.

                            We're also considering the use of XPlanner as a tool (www.xplanner.org)
                            to help us track our sprints and create burn graphs for management much
                            easier. I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
                            to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it). Basic
                            requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.

                            What have you had success in?

                            Thank you for your comments - much appreciated!

                            -Michael

                            Mike Cohn wrote:

                            > Hi Michael--
                            >
                            > I have experimented before with exactly what you describe. In introducing
                            > Scrum to a couple of different organizations I couldn't get them to
                            > initially accept the idea that we didn't need to think up all the
                            > requirements upfront. To get the project moving I had them do a two week
                            > "Requirements Capture Sprint" which focused just on getting initial
                            > requirements written down. We still went very lightweight, using much of
                            the
                            > advice in Cockburn's "Effective Use Cases" book. They also couldn't get
                            > around the idea that there'd be no upfront architecting so we did another
                            > two week "Analysis and Design Sprint" (ADS) that was intended to allay
                            that
                            > fear.
                            >
                            > Some advice:
                            > --realize this is a crutch and try to stop it as soon as you can. I never
                            > had to do it more than once, right at the start. By the second project no
                            > one needed it.
                            > --It does work well so there's no problem with it, except developers could
                            > be tempted to turn it into 4 weeks then 6, then 8.
                            > --Although when I've done a Requirements Capture Sprint in the past I've
                            > done it with use cases, I'd probably do it these days with it even shorter
                            > (1 week instead of 2) and use stories instead of use cases.
                            >
                            > This is written up (in only slightly more detail) in a paper I did for
                            IEEE
                            > Computer last year. You can read it at:
                            > http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles.php and select "Introducing
                            An
                            > Agile Process to an Organization."
                            >
                            > Good luck,
                            >
                            > --Mike Cohn
                            > Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                            > www.userstories.com
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Michael Dowling [mailto:mdowling@...]
                            > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:42 AM
                            > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies
                            >
                            > Hey all:
                            >
                            > The company I work for is implementing a SCRUM process for our
                            > development teams, and so far so good! I've worked with SCRUM before,
                            > but I've also almost always used SCRUM during development only, and
                            > using other methodologies and artifacts from other methodologies (i.e.
                            > JAD to gather requirements BEFORE the item is placed on a backlog and
                            > some of UP's artifacts such as sequence and class diagrams for effective
                            > communication of a design idea to your SCRUM team) for other parts of
                            > the process as a whole.
                            >
                            > I would like to hear whether any one else has experimented with this
                            > approach, and what their results were? Any recommendations?
                            >
                            > Best regards,
                            >
                            > -Michael
                            >

                            --

                            Michael Dowling
                            mdowling@...
                            PlanetOut Partners, Inc.
                            415.834.6500 main | 415.834.6306 direct | 415.834.6502 fax
                            www.gay.com * www.planetout.com * www.kleptomaniac.com * www.outandabout.com




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                          • Ron Jeffries
                            ... Isn t that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even more often? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Anyone can make the simple
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 5, 2004
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                              On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 9:23:18 PM, Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13) wrote:

                              > I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come
                              > after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

                              > I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave
                              > thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves
                              > thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

                              Isn't that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even
                              more often?

                              Ron Jeffries
                              www.XProgramming.com
                              Anyone can make the simple complicated.
                              Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
                            • Jens Ƙstergaard
                              I ve used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want ... Basic ... Hi Michael I have had absolutely no problem using excel and find that it works vey
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                                I've used it before (and *adore* it), but some folks also want
                                > to take a look at some other tools (excel just doesn't cut it).
                                Basic
                                > requirement is that it be as simple as scrum itself.
                                >

                                Hi Michael

                                I have had absolutely no problem using excel and find that it works
                                vey well. If a team needs additional material for coordination, they
                                figure it out themselves.

                                If you sign in and look under files, I have posted an example of a
                                sprintlog that we use.

                                Jens
                              • Reginald Braithwaite-Lee
                                ... Whenever possible, I like to use corkboards or whiteboards. I m considering using a projector and a dedicated PC on my next project for things that don t
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                                  --- Mike Cohn <mike@...> wrote:
                                  > I have successfully used:
                                  >
                                  > --cards
                                  > --a wiki
                                  > --rows in Excel
                                  > --TestTrack (a defect tracker, with each story/task entered as a
                                  > record)

                                  Whenever possible, I like to use corkboards or whiteboards. I'm
                                  considering using a projector and a dedicated PC on my next project for
                                  things that don't work well on paper.

                                  http://www.braithwaite-lee.com/opinions/cork-board.html

                                  --
                                  Reginald Braithwaite-Lee
                                  http://www.braithwaite-lee.com

                                  "Even when my proposals are seen as significant improvements, they are
                                  often rejected on the grounds that they are not intuitive. It is a
                                  classic Catch-22: The client wants something that is significantly
                                  superior to the competition. But if it is to be superior, it must be
                                  different. (Typically, the greater the improvement, the greater the
                                  difference.) Therefore, it cannot be intuitive, that is, familiar. What
                                  the client wants is an interface with at most marginal differences from
                                  current practice... that, somehow, makes a major improvement." --Jef
                                  Raskin


                                  __________________________________
                                  Do you Yahoo!?
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                                • Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13)
                                  I would say so. That s why we do empirical. David Roberts TRMS Technical Lead (619) 368-9621 ... From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@XProgramming.com] Sent:
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                                    I would say so. That's why we do empirical.

                                     

                                    David Roberts

                                    TRMS Technical Lead

                                    (619) 368-9621

                                     

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                    Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 7:23 PM
                                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM process with other methodologies

                                     

                                    On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 9:23:18 PM, Roberts, David J (CNSP N6124V13) wrote:

                                    > I find the time features are found to be necessary always seems to come
                                    > after you've developed something. You're lucky if otherwise is true for you.

                                    > I see developers having these meeting with customers. The developers leave
                                    > thinking, "I've locked down these requirements!" and the customer leaves
                                    > thinking "I know what they're going to build me". Both are problematic.

                                    Isn't that why Scrum ships software every month, and XP and Crystal even
                                    more often?

                                    Ron Jeffries
                                    www.XProgramming.com
                                    Anyone can make the simple complicated.
                                    Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus



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                                  • Claude Montpetit
                                    We just implemented a Scrum process and there are many stories that were added just for requirement analysis. This became necessary because the product is
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                                      We just implemented a Scrum process and there are many stories that
                                      were added just for requirement analysis. This became necessary
                                      because the product is already sold and installed at some customer
                                      locations (a server product). These customers have custom
                                      requirements that we do for them and they (generally) pay us. So we
                                      need to estimate the work required for it. Producing an estimate is
                                      therefore a story that must be prioritized. Once the estimate is
                                      completed and the quote sent to the customer, another story is created
                                      in the product backlog:

                                      Implement request X for customer Y based on estimate Z

                                      Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                                      deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                                      sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                                      quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                                      would in theory start very late:

                                      - month 1: submit the request
                                      - month 2: produce the estimate
                                      - month 3: implement the request

                                      This is not practical of course so we have been inserting estimates in
                                      the current sprint and informed the customer that he must decide in
                                      the current month whether he wants to go ahead or not if he wants it
                                      to be done in the next sprint.

                                      One of the strongest problem I had (and still have) implementing this
                                      process was to convince people outside of the development team
                                      (client, marketing, sales) that they should know about details of the
                                      products (bugs, certain improvements that look "too technical"...)

                                      Once the product backlog was transfered to "clients", and when I asked
                                      them to prioritize items, they thought that there was too many
                                      details. I then realized that they felt this way because they did not
                                      understand the product enough, and that the development team had been
                                      driving the product on their own since day one. Changing this around
                                      is a real challenge. For this reason, I am currently acting as both
                                      the Scrum master and the product owner until I can find someone
                                      outside the dev team that will take the product owner role and manage
                                      priorities.

                                      But overall, the implementation of a well defined process (Scrum) has
                                      been welcomed by the client/marketing/sales side as they know what we
                                      are working on now and they have control on what is next.

                                      -
                                      Claude Montpetit
                                      http://www.montpetit.net
                                    • Ron Jeffries
                                      ... The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you could just
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                                        On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                                        > Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                                        > deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                                        > sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                                        > quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                                        > would in theory start very late:

                                        The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                                        hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you
                                        could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig / chicken rule
                                        in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer should be.

                                        On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that often
                                        things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...

                                        Ron Jeffries
                                        www.XProgramming.com
                                        Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                                      • Mike Cohn
                                        If these are truly one or two at a time I handle them in the next morning s Daily Scrum. We ll do the Scrum meeting as normal then everyone will stay for a few
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                                          If these are truly one or two at a time I handle them in the next morning's
                                          Daily Scrum. We'll do the Scrum meeting as normal then everyone will stay
                                          for a few minutes and we'll estimate a story or two from the previous day or
                                          that came up early in the morning.

                                          We routinely also slip in an occasional one-hour estimating session in each
                                          sprint just to look outward at future stories. That will eventually stop but
                                          we're working through a large backlog of unestimated stories.

                                          --Mike Cohn
                                          Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                                          www.userstories.com

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                          Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 6:04 PM
                                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum and requirements (was Re: SCRUM
                                          process with other methodologies)

                                          On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                                          > Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                                          > deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                                          > sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                                          > quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                                          > would in theory start very late:

                                          The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                                          hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an estimate, you
                                          could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig / chicken rule
                                          in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer should be.

                                          On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that often
                                          things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...

                                          Ron Jeffries
                                          www.XProgramming.com
                                          Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear



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                                        • Claude Montpetit
                                          Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to establish a fixed
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Apr 6, 2004
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                                            Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post
                                            were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to
                                            establish a fixed price bid for some requested product extensions.
                                            Because they are for fixed price extensions, these estimation
                                            requests become stories on their own as opposed to the rough estimates
                                            that we set on most stories that enter the backlog.

                                            (I have personnally never worked on a team that can produce such
                                            estimates at a rate of hundred per day... must be great though ;)

                                            Claude

                                            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                                            <ronjeffries@X...> wrote:
                                            > On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 5:58:14 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:
                                            >
                                            >>Implementing Scrum is very new to me and I am not sure about how to
                                            >>deal with, for example, urgent estimates that must enter the current
                                            >>sprint. Telling the salesman to wait for the next iteration for the
                                            >>quote is not usually a good thing as it means that the implementation
                                            >>would in theory start very late:
                                            >
                                            >The teams I have worked with can estimate things at a rate of several
                                            >hundred per day, so I would think that if all you need is an
                                            estimate, you
                                            >could just wander in and ask. But of course there's this pig
                                            > / chicken rule in Scrum, so I don't know what the official answer
                                            should be.
                                            >
                                            >On the other hand, my experience with sales people suggests that
                                            >often things need not be as urgent as they tend to be described ...
                                            >
                                            > Ron Jeffries
                                            > www.XProgramming.com
                                            > Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                                          • Ron Jeffries
                                            ... Yes. If it s a whole product, that would take a half-day or a day. I m talking about story estimates. If the group is commonly called upon to do that, I
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Apr 7, 2004
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                                              On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 11:33:23 PM, Claude Montpetit wrote:

                                              > Just in case it was misunderstood, what I was referring to in my post
                                              > were not the usual product backlog estimates, but estimates used to
                                              > establish a fixed price bid for some requested product extensions.
                                              > Because they are for fixed price extensions, these estimation
                                              > requests become stories on their own as opposed to the rough estimates
                                              > that we set on most stories that enter the backlog.

                                              > (I have personnally never worked on a team that can produce such
                                              > estimates at a rate of hundred per day... must be great though ;)

                                              Yes. If it's a whole product, that would take a half-day or a day. I'm
                                              talking about story estimates.

                                              If the group is commonly called upon to do that, I guess I'd just plan for
                                              it in the team's velocity.

                                              Ron Jeffries
                                              www.XProgramming.com
                                              Accroche toi a ton reve. --ELO
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