Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [scrumdevelopment] Middle-up-down vs. bottom-up

Expand Messages
  • Ken Schwaber
    Not in my experience. However, I ve either been on critical projects or projects where the organization was changing its culture. Both required dedicated
    Message 1 of 11 , May 3 3:52 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      Not in my experience. However, I've either been on critical projects or
      projects where the organization was changing its culture. Both required
      dedicated ScrumMasters. In a well implemented Scrum organization, the teams
      could be self-directing.
      Ken

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Jonas Bengtsson [mailto:jonas.b@...]
      Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 6:22 PM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Middle-up-down vs. bottom-up


      Ken,

      The reason why I asked about self-directing teams was the following
      sentences by Mike Beedle:
      "SCRUMs can also be held by self-directed teams, in that case someone is
      designated as the scribe and also logs the completed and planned activities
      of the Backlog and the existing Blocks. All activities from the Backlog and
      the Blocks are then distributed among the team members for resolution."
      <http://jeffsutherland.org/scrum/scrum_pattern.html>

      Has this been "proven" to be unrealistic?

      > The ScrumMaster is also known as the IT project manager, and is
      > responsible
      > for the productivity of the team, ensuring that it has the best
      > possible and
      > most appropriate staffing, works together well, gets decisions made
      > promptly, has impediments removed quickly, and understands the project and
      > the product backlog.

      I agree with most of the above. But what do you mean by "responsible for the
      productivity of the team"? I can see that s/he can be responsible to remove
      impediments and to do everything possible to enhance the productivity. But
      can s/he be responsible for the actual productivity? If s/he does everything
      s/he can but the team still performs poorly is s/he the one to "blame"? As I
      see it the ScrumMaster is responsible to create the right environment for
      productivity but not directly for the productivity.
      Do we mean the same thing or do we have different opinions? (Perhaps I
      should work in a Scrum project before I have opinions about it :-)

      > A new type of management position that isn't
      > administrative, but a very real coach to the team. The best background is
      > border collie or sheepdog.

      I like that! :-)

      Jonas

      ps. forgive me if I was unable to express what I mean above, but I'm really
      tired :-) ds.



      To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • Mike Cohn
      Yes, I think we re on the same page on this. I guess I didn t consider the work to be routine, just not knowledge-creating. I m thinking of a project I m
      Message 2 of 11 , May 3 4:05 PM
      • 0 Attachment

        Yes, I think we’re on the same page on this.

         

        I guess I didn’t consider the work to be routine, just not knowledge-creating. I’m thinking of a project I’m working with right now where one of the programmers is writing a simple user administration program to accompany the main program (to allow creation of new users, delete existing users, etc.). Everyone has written something similar so it’s not creating new knowledge but it isn’t exactly routine because he hasn’t done it dozens of previous times. Every programmer (person in general) finds his challenges different ways so I generally don’t give a programmer a challenge of “do this routine task faster than you’ve done it before” because not all programmers like that type of challenge (another may prefer to do it is less memory, etc.). In true Scrum manner that type of decision is best left to each individual.

         

        The Scrum Master is vital. I’m not sure if the role becomes less important with jelled teams but the role can become much less distinct. As the team comes together there is less need for the orchestrating activities of a Scrum Master and so I’ve found it easier for one of the programmers to do the job after having watched it happen for awhile. I’m thinking about one team I’m working with—there are 6 people on the team and I’ve worked with 3 of them in various capacities for much of the last 8 years so we obviously have a history together. We started with a Scrum-like process way back then and have evolved it as we learned or as Ken, Mike and others published on the topic. So the 3 on this team are pretty familiar with what they need to do and my duties as a scrum master to them are very simple relative to what other teams need.

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Jonas Bengtsson [mailto:jonas.b@...]
        Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 3:34 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Middle-up-down vs. bottom-up

         

        Mike,

        It seems like we're on the same page. Perhaps one could say that there is an
        emphasis on both team and individual - the team commits to the work and is
        responsible to make it happen (on a Sprint level) and the individual
        commits/is responsible on a daily basis. Do that sound reasonable? What I
        meant by emphasis on team was that it's not individualistic but the team
        work/spirit/etc play a major role.

        I think I agree about that the "typical aspects" have a big perceptage of
        the work. But how do you deal with that? If most work is routine how do you
        keep the motivation high? I, for one, need challanges every now and then. I
        guess I tackle the problem by making it into a challange, e.g. by completing
        the work faster than I've done before, or perhaps (do I dare to say :-) by
        adding small features.

        Another question, how important is the ScrumMaster? (both for the
        "knowledge-creation" and for the success of the project in general)  I guess
        it differs quite much from project to project. Is it possible that s/he
        becomes less important as the team gets more jelled? Are there any
        self-directing Scrum teams out there?

        Jonas

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
        Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 10:13 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Middle-up-down vs. bottom-up


        I guess I would have considered Scrum to be a process that puts emphasis on
        the individual but does so by putting a team framework in place to support
        that individual. I think most individuals working on Scrum projects would
        consider it very liberating from the perspective of personal productivity.

        As for knowledge being created by individuals who "operate as independent
        and separate actors" I'd largely agree with that. But-I'd also suggest that
        the bulk of most software projects are not about knowledge creation. Drucker
        's "knowledge worker" term doesn't have to mean the individual is always
        creating knowledge; it could mean that the worker uses his knowledge. For a
        typical software project there is knowledge created during the activities
        where truly new thought is occurring but I don't think knowledge is created
        when fairly typical aspects of the system are being coded---and most systems
        have a big percentage of this type of work.

        So, while individuals create knowledge the application of that knowledge is
        put to practical use through a team. Scrum works (in my opinion and Mike
        Beedle seems like the one who'd know more about this topic) because if
        allows for individual creativity but always with the framework of a team
        around it. If I go off on a programming tangent that may or may not pay off
        (i.e., creating knowledge) I can do that because I know that if my detour
        doesn't work the rest of the team will help pick up on tasks I got behind
        on.

        --Mike



        To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      • Mike Beedle
        ... Jonas, Ken: It is possible to have self-directed teams with no Scrum Master. But I have only done that twice in 6 years. Basically, Ken hits the nail on
        Message 3 of 11 , May 4 12:18 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          Jonas wrote:
          >Ken,
          > The reason why I asked about self-directing teams was
          > the following sentences by Mike Beedle:
          > "SCRUMs can also be held by self-directed teams, in
          > that case someone is designated as the scribe and
          > also logs the completed and planned activities
          > of the Backlog and the existing Blocks. All
          > activities from the Backlog and the Blocks are then
          > distributed among the team members for resolution."
          > <http://jeffsutherland.org/scrum/scrum_pattern.html>
          >
          > Has this been "proven" to be unrealistic?

          Ken wrote:
          > Not in my experience. However, I've either been on
          > critical projects or projects where the organization
          > was changing its culture. Both required dedicated
          > ScrumMasters. In a well implemented Scrum organization,
          > the teams could be self-directing.

          Jonas, Ken:

          It is possible to have self-directed teams with no Scrum Master.

          But I have only done that twice in 6 years. Basically,
          Ken hits the nail on the head, it requires a very
          special environment:

          - high Scrum experience for all, if not all members
          of the team

          - team members with established relationships with
          other members of the organization and with the
          respect of managers (because some of their chosen
          assignments are "issues"; therefore, they must
          be able to represent themselves to resolve them).

          - team members ability to keep and manage backlog
          (again, not an easy thing to do, but it is
          possible, specially in smaller teams.)

          - team members with the ability to coordinate with
          the customer and the sponsor of the team about
          needs, demos (Spring Review Meeting), planning
          (Sprint Planning Meeting),

          etc.

          Unfortunately these requirements mean that self-directed
          teams are hard to put in place and hard to keep in
          balance. Simply put, it is safer to have a good
          Scrum Master,

          - Mike
        • Linda Rising
          Hi Guys, All the teams at AG were self-directed but that just means that the team adopted the various management roles. The ScrumMaster was just another role
          Message 4 of 11 , May 5 3:12 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Guys,

            All the teams at AG were self-directed but that just means that the team adopted the
            various management roles. The ScrumMaster was just another role and someone
            took that on and tracked the backlog.





            Linda



            Mike Beedle wrote:
            Jonas wrote:
            Ken,
            The reason why I asked about self-directing teams was
            the following sentences by Mike Beedle:
            "SCRUMs can also be held by self-directed teams, in
            that case someone is designated as the scribe and
            also logs the completed and planned activities
            of the Backlog and the existing Blocks. All
            activities from the Backlog and the Blocks are then
            distributed among the team members for resolution."
            <http://jeffsutherland.org/scrum/scrum_pattern.html>

            Has this been "proven" to be unrealistic?

            Ken wrote:
            Not in my experience. However, I've either been on 
            critical projects or projects where the organization
            was changing its culture. Both required dedicated
            ScrumMasters. In a well implemented Scrum organization,
            the teams could be self-directing.

            Jonas, Ken:

            It is possible to have self-directed teams with no Scrum Master.

            But I have only done that twice in 6 years. Basically,
            Ken hits the nail on the head, it requires a very
            special environment:

            - high Scrum experience for all, if not all members
            of the team

            - team members with established relationships with
            other members of the organization and with the
            respect of managers (because some of their chosen
            assignments are "issues"; therefore, they must
            be able to represent themselves to resolve them).

            - team members ability to keep and manage backlog
            (again, not an easy thing to do, but it is
            possible, specially in smaller teams.)

            - team members with the ability to coordinate with
            the customer and the sponsor of the team about
            needs, demos (Spring Review Meeting), planning
            (Sprint Planning Meeting),

            etc.

            Unfortunately these requir ements mean that self-directed
            teams are hard to put in place and hard to keep in
            balance. Simply put, it is safer to have a good
            Scrum Master,

            - Mike



            ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
            Buy Stock for $4
            and no minimums.
            FREE Money 2002.
            http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/9EfwlB/TM
            ---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

            To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.