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RE: [scrumdevelopment] The Myth of "Voting someone off the island"

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  • Brent Barton
    We used to use voting off the island. This was not a hire/fire event because sometimes it is a team fit issue. Some members have had great results on
    Message 1 of 26 , May 13, 2008
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      We used to use “voting off the island.”  This was not a hire/fire event because sometimes it is a team “fit” issue.  Some members have had great results on other teams.  Too many of these events leads to separations for obvious reasons.

       

      I am becoming more sensitive to catchy phrases that extend beyond the meaning of the practices like Scrum (or Scrum-but) and Agile (“We’re Agile now but do not write automated tests or integrate or document or pair or…”).  Similarly, “Voting off the island” has issues in that this phrase extends further than it’s healthy meaning.  This phrase added some fear to it for those newer to Agilie.  Some teams forgot to use balanced conversation and conflict resolution skills first. 

       

      On the other hand, as we de-emphasized this, teams did not have as much empowerment.  I am looking for a healthy version of “voting off the island.”

       

      Thanks,

      Brent

       

      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Malcolm Anderson
      Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 7:45 AM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] The Myth of "Voting someone off the island"

       

      I've always heard the mantra in agile development that teams are self
      managed, and that if someone is not performing up to par that the team
      has the right to "vote them off the island".

      A year ago, I was on a team where this was done. The person was a
      contractor, and it was really apparent, really quickly, that they were
      a negative influence on the team.

      Because he was a contractor, we were able to say, "we don't want you
      any more, good luck"

      Now however, I've moved into corporate America and it doesn't seem to
      be that simple.

      Has anyone else had positive or negative experiences with voting
      someone off the island?

      Been voted off your self?
      If so, what did the company do correctly in your case.
      What could they have improved on?

      Thanks

      Malcolm

    • quinton@serv.net
      As I see it, Scrum is about the business, and cares nothing for people that cannot produce 100% every day. If a company is going to do scrum, if someone is
      Message 2 of 26 , May 13, 2008
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        As I see it, Scrum is about the business, and cares nothing for people
        that cannot produce 100% every day.

        If a company is going to do scrum, if someone is not 100% useful, then
        the company should just fire them.

        Scrum is not for humans - it is for humanoids.

        Everyone is plug and play - just like parts in a machine.

        I'd love to hear to the contrary. I have not seen anything in the
        literature about the human aspects of scrum.

        Also, "teambuilding" cannot be forced or contrived - and team building
        takes time - and you cannot just take random people and expect a team to
        form on it's own - but companies do it all the time.


        > We used to use "voting off the island." This was not a hire/fire
        > event because sometimes it is a team "fit" issue. Some members have
        > had great results on other teams. Too many of these events leads to
        > separations for obvious reasons.
        >
        >
        >
        > I am becoming more sensitive to catchy phrases that extend beyond the
        > meaning of the practices like Scrum (or Scrum-but) and Agile ("We're
        > Agile now but do not write automated tests or integrate or document or
        > pair or..."). Similarly, "Voting off the island" has issues in that
        > this phrase extends further than it's healthy meaning. This phrase
        > added some fear to it for those newer to Agilie. Some teams forgot to
        > use balanced conversation and conflict resolution skills first.
        >
        >
        >
        > On the other hand, as we de-emphasized this, teams did not have as
        > much empowerment. I am looking for a healthy version of "voting off
        > the island."
        >
        >
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Brent
        >
        >
        >
        > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Malcolm
        > Anderson
        > Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 7:45 AM
        > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] The Myth of "Voting someone off the
        > island"
        >
        >
        >
        > I've always heard the mantra in agile development that teams are self
        > managed, and that if someone is not performing up to par that the team
        > has the right to "vote them off the island".
        >
        > A year ago, I was on a team where this was done. The person was a
        > contractor, and it was really apparent, really quickly, that they were
        > a negative influence on the team.
        >
        > Because he was a contractor, we were able to say, "we don't want you
        > any more, good luck"
        >
        > Now however, I've moved into corporate America and it doesn't seem to
        > be that simple.
        >
        > Has anyone else had positive or negative experiences with voting
        > someone off the island?
        >
        > Been voted off your self?
        > If so, what did the company do correctly in your case.
        > What could they have improved on?
        >
        > Thanks
        >
        > Malcolm
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Malcolm Anderson
        I m not sure what company you are working for, and who your scrum master is, but they haven t been reading any of the books I ve been reading, or getting
        Message 3 of 26 , May 13, 2008
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          I'm not sure what company you are working for, and who your scrum
          master is, but they haven't been reading any of the books I've been
          reading, or getting training from the people I've been getting
          training from.

          Scrum is all about the people.

          There are people who see the word "sprint" and salivate about the
          productivity they are about to experience, but that just leads to burn
          out faster, thereby lowering your measured velocity, and being
          counter-productive.

          Last I checked, Scrum is about maintainable speed and personal development.

          I am truly interested in learning what caused you to form these
          opinions, as you are not the only one I've met with them and these
          beliefs confuse me.

          Thanks

          Malcolm


          On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 11:24 AM, <quinton@...> wrote:
          > As I see it, Scrum is about the business, and cares nothing for people
          > that cannot produce 100% every day.
          >
          > If a company is going to do scrum, if someone is not 100% useful, then
          > the company should just fire them.
          >
          > Scrum is not for humans - it is for humanoids.
          >
          > Everyone is plug and play - just like parts in a machine.
          >
          > I'd love to hear to the contrary. I have not seen anything in the
          > literature about the human aspects of scrum.
          >
          > Also, "teambuilding" cannot be forced or contrived - and team building
          > takes time - and you cannot just take random people and expect a team to
          > form on it's own - but companies do it all the time.
          >
          >
          >
          > > We used to use "voting off the island." This was not a hire/fire
          > > event because sometimes it is a team "fit" issue. Some members have
          > > had great results on other teams. Too many of these events leads to
          > > separations for obvious reasons.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I am becoming more sensitive to catchy phrases that extend beyond the
          > > meaning of the practices like Scrum (or Scrum-but) and Agile ("We're
          > > Agile now but do not write automated tests or integrate or document or
          > > pair or..."). Similarly, "Voting off the island" has issues in that
          > > this phrase extends further than it's healthy meaning. This phrase
          > > added some fear to it for those newer to Agilie. Some teams forgot to
          > > use balanced conversation and conflict resolution skills first.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > On the other hand, as we de-emphasized this, teams did not have as
          > > much empowerment. I am looking for a healthy version of "voting off
          > > the island."
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > >
          > > Brent
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          > > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Malcolm
          > > Anderson
          > > Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 7:45 AM
          > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] The Myth of "Voting someone off the
          > > island"
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I've always heard the mantra in agile development that teams are self
          > > managed, and that if someone is not performing up to par that the team
          > > has the right to "vote them off the island".
          > >
          > > A year ago, I was on a team where this was done. The person was a
          > > contractor, and it was really apparent, really quickly, that they were
          > > a negative influence on the team.
          > >
          > > Because he was a contractor, we were able to say, "we don't want you
          > > any more, good luck"
          > >
          > > Now however, I've moved into corporate America and it doesn't seem to
          > > be that simple.
          > >
          > > Has anyone else had positive or negative experiences with voting
          > > someone off the island?
          > >
          > > Been voted off your self?
          > > If so, what did the company do correctly in your case.
          > > What could they have improved on?
          > >
          > > Thanks
          > >
          > > Malcolm
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
        • quinton@serv.net
          I ve had 4 scrummasters and worked on 7 different teams since the company I work for has been on scrum - starting about 1 year ago. It s not just me being
          Message 4 of 26 , May 13, 2008
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            I've had 4 scrummasters and worked on 7 different teams since the company
            I work for has been on scrum - starting about 1 year ago.

            It's not just me being moved around - most everyone here is switched
            around on teams frequently.

            Is the goal of scrum less than maximum possible output?

            Is there any group that goes to companies to "check if they are doing
            scrum" properly - and if not, forbid them from claiming to do scrum?






            > I'm not sure what company you are working for, and who your scrum
            > master is, but they haven't been reading any of the books I've been
            > reading, or getting training from the people I've been getting
            > training from.
            >
            > Scrum is all about the people.
            >
            > There are people who see the word "sprint" and salivate about the
            > productivity they are about to experience, but that just leads to burn
            > out faster, thereby lowering your measured velocity, and being
            > counter-productive.
            >
            > Last I checked, Scrum is about maintainable speed and personal
            > development.
            >
            > I am truly interested in learning what caused you to form these
            > opinions, as you are not the only one I've met with them and these
            > beliefs confuse me.
            >
            > Thanks
            >
            > Malcolm
            >
            >
            > On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 11:24 AM, <quinton@...> wrote:
            >> As I see it, Scrum is about the business, and cares nothing for people
            >> that cannot produce 100% every day.
            >>
            >> If a company is going to do scrum, if someone is not 100% useful, then
            >> the company should just fire them.
            >>
            >> Scrum is not for humans - it is for humanoids.
            >>
            >> Everyone is plug and play - just like parts in a machine.
            >>
            >> I'd love to hear to the contrary. I have not seen anything in the
            >> literature about the human aspects of scrum.
            >>
            >> Also, "teambuilding" cannot be forced or contrived - and team building
            >> takes time - and you cannot just take random people and expect a team
            >> to
            >> form on it's own - but companies do it all the time.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> > We used to use "voting off the island." This was not a hire/fire
            >> > event because sometimes it is a team "fit" issue. Some members have
            >> > had great results on other teams. Too many of these events leads to
            >> > separations for obvious reasons.
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > I am becoming more sensitive to catchy phrases that extend beyond the
            >> > meaning of the practices like Scrum (or Scrum-but) and Agile ("We're
            >> > Agile now but do not write automated tests or integrate or document
            >> or
            >> > pair or..."). Similarly, "Voting off the island" has issues in that
            >> > this phrase extends further than it's healthy meaning. This phrase
            >> > added some fear to it for those newer to Agilie. Some teams forgot to
            >> > use balanced conversation and conflict resolution skills first.
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > On the other hand, as we de-emphasized this, teams did not have as
            >> > much empowerment. I am looking for a healthy version of "voting off
            >> > the island."
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > Thanks,
            >> >
            >> > Brent
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            >> > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Malcolm
            >> > Anderson
            >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 7:45 AM
            >> > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            >> > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] The Myth of "Voting someone off the
            >> > island"
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > I've always heard the mantra in agile development that teams are self
            >> > managed, and that if someone is not performing up to par that the
            >> team
            >> > has the right to "vote them off the island".
            >> >
            >> > A year ago, I was on a team where this was done. The person was a
            >> > contractor, and it was really apparent, really quickly, that they
            >> were
            >> > a negative influence on the team.
            >> >
            >> > Because he was a contractor, we were able to say, "we don't want you
            >> > any more, good luck"
            >> >
            >> > Now however, I've moved into corporate America and it doesn't seem to
            >> > be that simple.
            >> >
            >> > Has anyone else had positive or negative experiences with voting
            >> > someone off the island?
            >> >
            >> > Been voted off your self?
            >> > If so, what did the company do correctly in your case.
            >> > What could they have improved on?
            >> >
            >> > Thanks
            >> >
            >> > Malcolm
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >>
            >>
            >
          • Jim McFarland
            ... Have you read the Agile Manifesto? http://agilemanifesto.org/ It applies to Scrum and other agile processes.
            Message 5 of 26 , May 13, 2008
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              On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 12:24 PM, <quinton@...> wrote:
              >
              > Scrum is not for humans - it is for humanoids.
              >
              > Everyone is plug and play - just like parts in a machine.
              >
              > I'd love to hear to the contrary. I have not seen anything in the
              > literature about the human aspects of scrum.

              Have you read the Agile Manifesto? http://agilemanifesto.org/ It
              applies to Scrum and other agile processes.
            • Tobias Mayer
              ... scrum properly - and if not, forbid them from claiming to do scrum? There should be! We need The Scrum Police, or some sort of Scrum Inquisition. We can
              Message 6 of 26 , May 13, 2008
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                > Is there any group that goes to companies to "check if they are doing
                scrum" properly - and if not, forbid them from claiming to do scrum?

                There should be!  We need The Scrum Police, or some sort of Scrum Inquisition.  We can have the SA certify the members of such a force.  CSI: Certified Scrum Inquisitor.

                Tobias


                quinton@... wrote:
                I've had 4 scrummasters and worked on 7 different teams since the company I work for has been on scrum - starting about 1 year ago.

                It's not just me being moved around - most everyone here is switched
                around on teams frequently.

                Is the goal of scrum less than maximum possible output?

                Is there any group that goes to companies to "check if they are doing
                scrum" properly - and if not, forbid them from claiming to do scrum?



              • quinton@serv.net
                Is this the correct one? I don t see how to deal with people who cannot give 100% - What should a team do with an UNmotivated individual that was placed on
                Message 7 of 26 , May 13, 2008
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                  Is this the correct one?

                  I don't see how to deal with people who cannot give 100% -

                  What should a team do with an "UNmotivated individual" that was placed on
                  the team by management - without consulting the team?



                  Principles behind the Agile Manifesto


                  We follow these principles:

                  Our highest priority is to satisfy the customer
                  through early and continuous delivery
                  of valuable software.

                  Welcome changing requirements, even late in
                  development. Agile processes harness change for
                  the customer's competitive advantage.

                  Deliver working software frequently, from a
                  couple of weeks to a couple of months, with a
                  preference to the shorter timescale.

                  Business people and developers must work
                  together daily throughout the project.

                  Build projects around motivated individuals.
                  Give them the environment and support they need,
                  and trust them to get the job done.

                  The most efficient and effective method of
                  conveying information to and within a development
                  team is face-to-face conversation.

                  Working software is the primary measure of progress.

                  Agile processes promote sustainable development.
                  The sponsors, developers, and users should be able
                  to maintain a constant pace indefinitely.

                  Continuous attention to technical excellence
                  and good design enhances agility.

                  Simplicity--the art of maximizing the amount
                  of work not done--is essential.

                  The best architectures, requirements, and designs
                  emerge from self-organizing teams.

                  At regular intervals, the team reflects on how
                  to become more effective, then tunes and adjusts
                  its behavior accordingly.

                  > On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 12:24 PM, <quinton@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> Scrum is not for humans - it is for humanoids.
                  >>
                  >> Everyone is plug and play - just like parts in a machine.
                  >>
                  >> I'd love to hear to the contrary. I have not seen anything in the
                  >> literature about the human aspects of scrum.
                  >
                  > Have you read the Agile Manifesto? http://agilemanifesto.org/ It
                  > applies to Scrum and other agile processes.
                  >
                • Jim Schiel
                  I ve seen it happen in a large corporation with a regular full time employee. The plan was to try this employee out on another team and see what happened
                  Message 8 of 26 , May 13, 2008
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                    I've seen it happen in a large corporation with a regular full time employee. The plan was to try this employee out on another team and see what happened (there was no way we could fire him at this point -- we'd be setting ourselves up for a lawsuit). However, at that point, the employee quit on his own.  I guess it was just too embarassing.
                     
                    Jim Schiel

                    On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Tobias Mayer <tobias.mayer@...> wrote:

                    > Is there any group that goes to companies to "check if they are doing
                    scrum" properly - and if not, forbid them from claiming to do scrum?

                    There should be!  We need The Scrum Police, or some sort of Scrum Inquisition.  We can have the SA certify the members of such a force.  CSI: Certified Scrum Inquisitor.

                    Tobias



                    quinton@... wrote:
                    I've had 4 scrummasters and worked on 7 different teams since the company I work for has been on scrum - starting about 1 year ago.

                    It's not just me being moved around - most everyone here is switched
                    around on teams frequently.

                    Is the goal of scrum less than maximum possible output?

                    Is there any group that goes to companies to "check if they are doing
                    scrum" properly - and if not, forbid them from claiming to do scrum?




                  • Malcolm Anderson
                    ... No, the goal is not maximum possible output , the goal of scrum is the maximum sustainable output. A marathon runner *could* run the first 100 yards of a
                    Message 9 of 26 , May 13, 2008
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                      On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 11:49 AM, <quinton@...> wrote:
                      > Is the goal of scrum less than maximum possible output?
                      >

                      No, the goal is not "maximum possible output", the goal of scrum is
                      the maximum sustainable output.

                      A marathon runner *could* run the first 100 yards of a 26 mile
                      marathon as fast as they can (maximum possible output), but they won't
                      finish the marathon that way.

                      Is your company intending to be here 5 years from now? If so they
                      need sustained output, not maximum output.
                    • quinton@serv.net
                      I think my company wants to SAY it is doing agile / scrum , but only actually does the parts that are convenient. OK - I ll stop blaming Agile / Scrum.
                      Message 10 of 26 , May 13, 2008
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                        I think my company wants to SAY it is doing agile / scrum , but only
                        actually does the parts that are convenient. OK - I'll stop blaming
                        Agile / Scrum.


                        > On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 11:49 AM, <quinton@...> wrote:
                        >> Is the goal of scrum less than maximum possible output?
                        >>
                        >
                        > No, the goal is not "maximum possible output", the goal of scrum is
                        > the maximum sustainable output.
                        >
                        > A marathon runner *could* run the first 100 yards of a 26 mile
                        > marathon as fast as they can (maximum possible output), but they won't
                        > finish the marathon that way.
                        >
                        > Is your company intending to be here 5 years from now? If so they
                        > need sustained output, not maximum output.
                        >
                      • quinton@serv.net
                        Too bad there s no way to take a field trip to a company that is working in Agile / Scrum effectively - but there s no way to see them in action without
                        Message 11 of 26 , May 13, 2008
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                          Too bad there's no way to take a field trip to a company that is working
                          in Agile / Scrum effectively - but there's no way to see them in action
                          without learning trade secrets. . .
                        • amanda@abelove.com
                          Sounds like burnout central. Everyone needs a break between sprints. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T ... From: quinton@serv.net Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 16:24:50
                          Message 12 of 26 , May 13, 2008
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                            Sounds like burnout central. Everyone needs a break between sprints.
                            Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: quinton@...

                            Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 16:24:50
                            To:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] The Myth of "Voting someone off the island"


                            As I see it, Scrum is about the business, and cares nothing for people
                            that cannot produce 100% every day.

                            If a company is going to do scrum, if someone is not 100% useful, then
                            the company should just fire them.

                            Scrum is not for humans - it is for humanoids.

                            Everyone is plug and play - just like parts in a machine.

                            I'd love to hear to the contrary. I have not seen anything in the
                            literature about the human aspects of scrum.

                            Also, "teambuilding" cannot be forced or contrived - and team building
                            takes time - and you cannot just take random people and expect a team to
                            form on it's own - but companies do it all the time.

                            > We used to use "voting off the island." This was not a hire/fire
                            > event because sometimes it is a team "fit" issue. Some members have
                            > had great results on other teams. Too many of these events leads to
                            > separations for obvious reasons.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I am becoming more sensitive to catchy phrases that extend beyond the
                            > meaning of the practices like Scrum (or Scrum-but) and Agile ("We're
                            > Agile now but do not write automated tests or integrate or document or
                            > pair or..."). Similarly, "Voting off the island" has issues in that
                            > this phrase extends further than it's healthy meaning. This phrase
                            > added some fear to it for those newer to Agilie. Some teams forgot to
                            > use balanced conversation and conflict resolution skills first.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > On the other hand, as we de-emphasized this, teams did not have as
                            > much empowerment. I am looking for a healthy version of "voting off
                            > the island."
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Thanks,
                            >
                            > Brent
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > From: scrumdevelopment@ <mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                            > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@ <mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Malcolm
                            > Anderson
                            > Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 7:45 AM
                            > To: scrumdevelopment@ <mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] The Myth of "Voting someone off the
                            > island"
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I've always heard the mantra in agile development that teams are self
                            > managed, and that if someone is not performing up to par that the team
                            > has the right to "vote them off the island".
                            >
                            > A year ago, I was on a team where this was done. The person was a
                            > contractor, and it was really apparent, really quickly, that they were
                            > a negative influence on the team.
                            >
                            > Because he was a contractor, we were able to say, "we don't want you
                            > any more, good luck"
                            >
                            > Now however, I've moved into corporate America and it doesn't seem to
                            > be that simple.
                            >
                            > Has anyone else had positive or negative experiences with voting
                            > someone off the island?
                            >
                            > Been voted off your self?
                            > If so, what did the company do correctly in your case.
                            > What could they have improved on?
                            >
                            > Thanks
                            >
                            > Malcolm
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • woynam
                            Nobody expects the Scrum Inquisition!!! ... Inquisition. We can have the SA certify the members of such a force. CSI: Certified Scrum Inquisitor. ...
                            Message 13 of 26 , May 13, 2008
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                              Nobody expects the Scrum Inquisition!!!


                              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Tobias Mayer
                              <tobias.mayer@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > Is there any group that goes to companies to "check if they are doing
                              > scrum" properly - and if not, forbid them from claiming to do scrum?
                              >
                              > There should be! We need The Scrum Police, or some sort of Scrum
                              Inquisition. We can have the SA certify the members of such a force.
                              CSI: Certified Scrum Inquisitor.
                              >
                              > Tobias
                              >
                              >
                              > quinton@... wrote: I've had 4
                              scrummasters and worked on 7 different teams since the company I work
                              for has been on scrum - starting about 1 year ago.
                              >
                              > It's not just me being moved around - most everyone here is switched
                              > around on teams frequently.
                              >
                              > Is the goal of scrum less than maximum possible output?
                              >
                              > Is there any group that goes to companies to "check if they are doing
                              > scrum" properly - and if not, forbid them from claiming to do scrum?
                              >
                            • davenicolette
                              I ve done it with four companies since last December. If you have a friend or former coworker who s working elsewhere, you can ask to visit their team. You may
                              Message 14 of 26 , May 13, 2008
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                                I've done it with four companies since last December. If you have a
                                friend or former coworker who's working elsewhere, you can ask to
                                visit their team. You may need to talk to the manager first to help
                                him/her feel comfortable with you, or you may need to sign a
                                non-disclosure agreement (I haven't had to do that yet). In any case,
                                it's definitely possible to visit a team for a day or a half day and
                                sit in with them, pairing and contributing to planning sessions and
                                anything else they happen to be doing on the day of your visit. It's
                                an enriching experience both for the visitor and for the visited team,
                                since both bring insights to the table that the other hasn't thought
                                of. Don't assume there's "no way." There are ways.


                                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, quinton@... wrote:
                                >
                                > Too bad there's no way to take a field trip to a company that is working
                                > in Agile / Scrum effectively - but there's no way to see them in action
                                > without learning trade secrets. . .
                                >
                              • Jim Schiel
                                It s disappointing how quickly the sustainable pace part is thrown away in the name of getting stuff done faster! Jim Schiel
                                Message 15 of 26 , May 13, 2008
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                                  It's disappointing how quickly the "sustainable pace" part is thrown away in the name of getting stuff done faster!
                                   
                                  Jim Schiel

                                  On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 12:10 PM, woynam <woyna@...> wrote:


                                  Nobody expects the Scrum Inquisition!!!

                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Tobias Mayer


                                  <tobias.mayer@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Is there any group that goes to companies to "check if they are doing
                                  > scrum" properly - and if not, forbid them from claiming to do scrum?
                                  >
                                  > There should be! We need The Scrum Police, or some sort of Scrum
                                  Inquisition. We can have the SA certify the members of such a force.
                                  CSI: Certified Scrum Inquisitor.
                                  >
                                  > Tobias
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > quinton@... wrote: I've had 4

                                  scrummasters and worked on 7 different teams since the company I work
                                  for has been on scrum - starting about 1 year ago.
                                  >
                                  > It's not just me being moved around - most everyone here is switched
                                  > around on teams frequently.
                                  >
                                  > Is the goal of scrum less than maximum possible output?
                                  >
                                  > Is there any group that goes to companies to "check if they are doing
                                  > scrum" properly - and if not, forbid them from claiming to do scrum?
                                  >


                                • davenicolette
                                  Their chief weapon is surprise. Surprise and retrospectives. Two! Their two weapons are surprise, retrospectives, and incremental delivery... Can we start
                                  Message 16 of 26 , May 13, 2008
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                                    Their chief weapon is surprise. Surprise and retrospectives. Two!
                                    Their two weapons are surprise, retrospectives, and incremental
                                    delivery... Can we start again?

                                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "woynam" <woyna@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Nobody expects the Scrum Inquisition!!!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Tobias Mayer
                                    > <tobias.mayer@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > > Is there any group that goes to companies to "check if they are
                                    doing
                                    > > scrum" properly - and if not, forbid them from claiming to do scrum?
                                    > >
                                    > > There should be! We need The Scrum Police, or some sort of Scrum
                                    > Inquisition. We can have the SA certify the members of such a force.
                                    > CSI: Certified Scrum Inquisitor.
                                    > >
                                    > > Tobias
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > quinton@ wrote: I've had 4
                                    > scrummasters and worked on 7 different teams since the company I work
                                    > for has been on scrum - starting about 1 year ago.
                                    > >
                                    > > It's not just me being moved around - most everyone here is switched
                                    > > around on teams frequently.
                                    > >
                                    > > Is the goal of scrum less than maximum possible output?
                                    > >
                                    > > Is there any group that goes to companies to "check if they are doing
                                    > > scrum" properly - and if not, forbid them from claiming to do scrum?
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Jim Schiel
                                    Agreed. With proper preparation, I ve been able to give tours through Siemens (before leaving, that is...) On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 12:14 PM, davenicolette
                                    Message 17 of 26 , May 13, 2008
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                                      Agreed. With proper preparation, I've been able to give tours through Siemens (before leaving, that is...)

                                      On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 12:14 PM, davenicolette <dnicolet@...> wrote:

                                      I've done it with four companies since last December. If you have a
                                      friend or former coworker who's working elsewhere, you can ask to
                                      visit their team. You may need to talk to the manager first to help
                                      him/her feel comfortable with you, or you may need to sign a
                                      non-disclosure agreement (I haven't had to do that yet). In any case,
                                      it's definitely possible to visit a team for a day or a half day and
                                      sit in with them, pairing and contributing to planning sessions and
                                      anything else they happen to be doing on the day of your visit. It's
                                      an enriching experience both for the visitor and for the visited team,
                                      since both bring insights to the table that the other hasn't thought
                                      of. Don't assume there's "no way." There are ways.

                                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, quinton@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Too bad there's no way to take a field trip to a company that is working
                                      > in Agile / Scrum effectively - but there's no way to see them in action
                                      > without learning trade secrets. . .
                                      >


                                    • quinton@serv.net
                                      Thanks for reminding me Jim! The first two scrums, we did have sustainable pace - and we completed all our tasks without leaving any technical debt - and I was
                                      Message 18 of 26 , May 13, 2008
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                                        Thanks for reminding me Jim!

                                        The first two scrums, we did have sustainable pace - and we completed all
                                        our tasks without leaving any technical debt - and I was feeling pretty
                                        good about it - then #3 - they added some tasks, told us we could slip
                                        some other tasks, and it was "only this time" - and then it became habit
                                        over and over. . .

                                        OK - I'm feeling better about that part now - since it actually did work a
                                        couple of scrums. . .




                                        > It's disappointing how quickly the "sustainable pace" part is thrown away
                                        > in
                                        > the name of getting stuff done faster!
                                        >
                                        > Jim Schiel
                                        >
                                        > On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 12:10 PM, woynam <woyna@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >>
                                        >> Nobody expects the Scrum Inquisition!!!
                                        >>
                                        >> --- In
                                        >> scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com<scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                        >> Tobias Mayer
                                        >> <tobias.mayer@...> wrote:
                                        >> >
                                        >> > > Is there any group that goes to companies to "check if they are
                                        >> doing
                                        >> > scrum" properly - and if not, forbid them from claiming to do scrum?
                                        >> >
                                        >> > There should be! We need The Scrum Police, or some sort of Scrum
                                        >> Inquisition. We can have the SA certify the members of such a force.
                                        >> CSI: Certified Scrum Inquisitor.
                                        >> >
                                        >> > Tobias
                                        >> >
                                        >> >
                                        >> > quinton@... wrote: I've had 4
                                        >> scrummasters and worked on 7 different teams since the company I work
                                        >> for has been on scrum - starting about 1 year ago.
                                        >> >
                                        >> > It's not just me being moved around - most everyone here is switched
                                        >> > around on teams frequently.
                                        >> >
                                        >> > Is the goal of scrum less than maximum possible output?
                                        >> >
                                        >> > Is there any group that goes to companies to "check if they are doing
                                        >> > scrum" properly - and if not, forbid them from claiming to do scrum?
                                        >> >
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >
                                      • Petri Heiramo
                                        ... While scrolling down the Digest, I was already waiting for this one :). It seems there are quite a few Monty Python fans around. Yours, Petri Petri Heiramo
                                        Message 19 of 26 , May 14, 2008
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                                          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "davenicolette"
                                          <dnicolet@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Their chief weapon is surprise. Surprise and retrospectives. Two!
                                          > Their two weapons are surprise, retrospectives, and incremental
                                          > delivery... Can we start again?

                                          While scrolling down the Digest, I was already waiting for this one :).

                                          It seems there are quite a few Monty Python fans around.


                                          Yours, Petri

                                          Petri Heiramo
                                          Senior Process Improvement Manager, CSP
                                          Digia Plc., Finland
                                        • Nina Niskanen
                                          ... I think that s a pretty common problem and will get even more common as customers learn to expect and demand agile type development. CSI in this context
                                          Message 20 of 26 , May 15, 2008
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                                            2008/5/13 <quinton@...>:
                                            > I think my company wants to SAY it is doing agile / scrum , but only
                                            > actually does the parts that are convenient. OK - I'll stop blaming
                                            > Agile / Scrum.

                                            I think that's a pretty common problem and will get even more common
                                            as customers learn to expect and demand agile type development. CSI in
                                            this context would probably fix some of it, but who wants that job?
                                            And moreover who'd want to pay for someone doing that? Of course if SA
                                            or AgileAlliance were to provide CMM type certification it might
                                            happen, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. *shudders at the
                                            thought*

                                            I can't think of any other ways to get rid of this kind of behaviour
                                            than to educate the customers further to expect byproducts of true
                                            agile; sustainable pace, consistent high quality etc. Has anyone found
                                            any other way to solve this? Change your organisation -pattern does
                                            not apply. ;)

                                            Nina
                                            --
                                            I reject your reality and substitute my own.
                                          • Mike Vizdos
                                            Here is a possible solution. Or not (smile). http://www.implementingscrum.com/blog/2006/10/23/getting-off-the-island/ Thank you, - Mike Vizdos Web:
                                            Message 21 of 26 , May 15, 2008
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                                              Here is a possible solution.  Or not (smile).


                                              Thank you,

                                              - Mike Vizdos
                                                          Web:      www.implementingscrum.com
                                                                        www.michaelvizdos.com

                                              =========

                                              For a complete list of my upcoming workshops and public appearances please visit www.michaelvizdos.com/enroll.

                                              Need a Mentor?  Take a look at www.michaelvizdos.com/telephone and please let me know your feedback and thoughts.

                                              ==========




                                              On May 13, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Malcolm Anderson wrote:

                                              I've always heard the mantra in agile development that teams are self
                                              managed, and that if someone is not performing up to par that the team
                                              has the right to "vote them off the island".

                                              A year ago, I was on a team where this was done. The person was a
                                              contractor, and it was really apparent, really quickly, that they were
                                              a negative influence on the team.

                                              Because he was a contractor, we were able to say, "we don't want you
                                              any more, good luck"

                                              Now however, I've moved into corporate America and it doesn't seem to
                                              be that simple.

                                              Has anyone else had positive or negative experiences with voting
                                              someone off the island?

                                              Been voted off your self?
                                              If so, what did the company do correctly in your case.
                                              What could they have improved on?

                                              Thanks

                                              Malcolm


                                            • James S. Fosdick, PMP, CSP
                                              I ve seen it with both contractors and employees. As you point out contractors are relatively low impact. With employees it s more delicate. I did work with
                                              Message 22 of 26 , May 15, 2008
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                                                I've seen it with both contractors and employees. As you point out
                                                contractors are relatively low impact. With employees it's more
                                                delicate. I did work with one organization were an FTE team member was
                                                not working out. This person got voted off one "island" (read scrum
                                                team) and was redeployed on another to see if maybe it was chemistry.
                                                The same thing happened with the second team and the team member was
                                                ultimately removed. I think with employees we just need to spend more
                                                time trying to find out the source of the problem, but at the end of
                                                the day if a team doesn't want to (or can't) work with a particular
                                                team member it is fundamental to the principle of self organization
                                                that we let the team remove the person. Otherwise we're only paying
                                                lip service to self management.
                                              • Quinton
                                                I ve read the military can only accept 1 out of 20 of the general population that is within it s age limits due to other disqualifying factors. ... From: James
                                                Message 23 of 26 , May 16, 2008
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                                                  I've read the military can only accept 1 out of 20 of the general population that is within it's age limits due to other disqualifying factors.
                                                   
                                                   
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 8:49 AM
                                                  Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: The Myth of "Voting someone off the island"

                                                  I've seen it with both contractors and employees. As you point out
                                                  contractors are relatively low impact. With employees it's more
                                                  delicate. I did work with one organization were an FTE team member was
                                                  not working out. This person got voted off one "island" (read scrum
                                                  team) and was redeployed on another to see if maybe it was chemistry.
                                                  The same thing happened with the second team and the team member was
                                                  ultimately removed. I think with employees we just need to spend more
                                                  time trying to find out the source of the problem, but at the end of
                                                  the day if a team doesn't want to (or can't) work with a particular
                                                  team member it is fundamental to the principle of self organization
                                                  that we let the team remove the person. Otherwise we're only paying
                                                  lip service to self management.

                                                • mnbluesguy
                                                  In one case we had a come to Jesus meeting and everyone put their cards on the table about behaviors that were not working for the team. We talked about what
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , May 16, 2008
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                                                    In one case we had a 'come to Jesus meeting' and everyone put their
                                                    cards on the table about behaviors that were not working for the team.
                                                    We talked about what we would do to change those behaviors as
                                                    individuals and as a group. We also stated how we would hold each
                                                    other accountable. Finally we agreed to start those changes right NOW.

                                                    One person came to me (Scrum Master/PM) afterwards and said "Do we
                                                    really mean we have to change now?" I told them we agreed to start
                                                    changing our behaviors right NOW. That didn't mean be changed 100%
                                                    right now, just start changing behaviors and be prepared to be called
                                                    out on bad behavior.

                                                    The next day that person quit the company....


                                                    Another individual was assigned to just about every type of project we
                                                    had where I work. He was told he had to improve in certain areas,
                                                    mostly technical and personal organization, and was offered detailed
                                                    coaching from people who wanted him to succeed. In the end he quit as
                                                    well (that was after almost 2 yrs).


                                                    I think you have to give people time, support, training and
                                                    opportunity to succeed. If you have done all of that then maybe it is
                                                    time for that employee to find someplace to work.
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