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Re: Scrum Development - I am much more senior ...

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  • barvybe
    I m actually not really sure I understand the issue. Just because the team succeeds as one, doesn t mean that recognition, authority and seniority don t
    Message 1 of 30 , May 8, 2008
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      I'm actually not really sure I understand the issue. Just because the
      "team" succeeds as one, doesn't mean that recognition, authority and
      seniority don't exist. Even in pair programming, one of the pair is
      typically senior. If the pair succeeds they would get most of the
      credit and if they fail most of the blame as accountability for the
      pair's work is mostly on the senior person's shoulders.

      There are other metrics which can be used such as individual story
      point velocity, etc. that help distinguish individuals on the team and
      there are also a great many informal structures around group
      conversation where either tacit or explicit approval, sign-off, etc.
      can occur.

      It sounds to me that the issue here is really that the scrum master
      has not established the communication methods by which individual
      achievement is communicated to senior management or the rest of the
      company. When it is communicated effectively, then these senior
      people can (and should) graciously defer praise to the teams that they
      lead as any good senior / manager would do.

      In short - we don't have these problems AT ALL so it really sounds
      like a corporate culture issue. I can see it happening, particularly
      if you take any of the "extreme" agile methodologies word for
      word...but that's the great thing about agile - it has some core
      concepts that you can then tailor to meet your specific environment.

      - Pete

      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Benoit RAOUL"
      <beninlyon@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi everybody,
      > It's a very interesting subject overhere!
      > I'm studying for my thesis (i'm a french student) all the impacts of
      an APM
      > on people. And that's right that for some people it's difficult to find
      > recognition in this type of management because as it said only the
      team is
      > recognize. I don't if this problem is only for senior person, i
      think that
      > it depends on what you need to be effecient. Some of us needs a very
      > organizational structure with some kind of authority, on the other
      hand, and
      > maybe younger person, need to have flexibility and Agility to be
      efficient.
      > I'm sorry for my writing!
      >
      > Best Regards
      > Benoit
      > 2008/5/6 Basharat Wani <bbw@...>:
      >
      > > Very interesting.
      > >
      > > We are using Agile\Scrum since last 3+ years, we have a very
      diverse teams
      > > with a bunch of folks who has over 27+ years of experience in software
      > > develp. in the teams ,in the same company, same products line,
      building
      > > with different technologies over this period of time.
      > >
      > > These awesome oldies welcome Agile\Scrum with open arms from the very
      > > beginning , actually they expedite its usages across the product
      devleopment
      > > rapidly, as they saw the gains very early one. SCRUM or Agile
      never takes
      > > away Respect or Seniority away from any one, it depends upon each
      individual
      > > perceptive, how they want to see it.I believe that it gives them more
      > > leverage particularly during the sprint planning meetings
      (seniority and
      > > exp. matters) and things like that.
      > >
      > > I believe it depends upon individual personality how they want to
      see it
      > > , Right or Wrong .
      > >
      > >
      > > Basharat
      > >
      > > ------------------------------
      > > *From:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
      > > scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Vikrama Dhiman
      > > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 06, 2008 9:06 AM
      > > *To:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      > > *Subject:* RE: [scrumdevelopment] I am much more senior ...
      > >
      > > Do these IITK grad's work independently or with some others? Do
      they
      > > report to someone? Whom?
      > >
      > > --- On *Tue, 5/6/08, ashok mallik <ashok_mallik@...>* wrote:
      > >
      > > From: ashok mallik <ashok_mallik@...>
      > > Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] I am much more senior ...
      > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      > > Date: Tuesday, May 6, 2008, 6:25 PM
      > >
      > > I have some friends who have graduated from IIT Kanpur B. Tech
      computer
      > > science after 23 years they are still developers, that is what
      they love
      > > doing, some of their batch mates are senior Vice presidents in
      fortune 100
      > > companies
      > >
      > > ------------------------------
      > > To: scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com
      > > From: vickydhiman@ yahoo.com
      > > Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 05:42:21 -0700
      > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] I am much more senior ...
      > >
      > > An interesting thing happened at a friends company. They are
      really good
      > > at Agile and I know from first hand experience that right from the
      value
      > > system to practices are good. However, of late, 04 senior people
      whom they
      > > wanted to hire as a part of the team [technical people] refused to
      join -
      > > highlighting what they called "inadequate respect/ authority". The
      problem
      > > is that these 04 people have now gone to rival company and in last 04
      > > months, the company [not doing Agile what so ever] has made rapid
      strides.
      > > If that was not bad in itself, a lot of people from this company
      have also
      > > joined the competing company citing what they call "we will learn
      more from
      > > seniors in the company." In short, there has been a serious human
      capital
      > > loss.
      > >
      > > I tried to call one of these person's and he told me this - "I have
      > > slogged hard for over 06 years to reach where I have. I don't have
      an issue
      > > working with people much less in experience - I would learn
      something from
      > > them too. But, I find it degrading to discredit all my 06 years of
      > > experience. How do I know I have grown if all the time its just
      "team's
      > > success" thats the metric. Again, I am not against the team - I
      just want
      > > respect and slight authority." Then he went on to add - "After
      all, you too
      > > strive for a Scrum Master, Scrum Master of Scrum Master, Product
      Owner role
      > > as well? Do you give it to someone with 02 years experience? Why
      not have
      > > something similar for technically experienced people too?"
      > > I thought long and hard about it. I have to yet come up with an
      answer. I
      > > don't know if there are studies whether experienced people
      [development team
      > > and not SM's or PO's] prefer Agile companies or more process driven
      > > companies with titles and authority.
      > >
      > > I would believe this is a real dilemma and there might be things
      which are
      > > not being addressed by Agile itself and needs support from some other
      > > research in HR/ organizational patterns etc. The people vs the
      team debate
      > > has an interesting angle.
      > >
      > > I am unsure how best to approach this issue. Any insight and
      thoughts are
      > > welcome.
      > >
      > > ------------------------------
      > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
      Try it
      > >
      now.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ>
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------
      > > Make Windows Vista more reliable and secure with Windows Vista Service
      > > Pack 1. Learn
      more.<http://www.windowsvista.com/SP1?WT.mc_id=hotmailvistasp1banner>
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------
      > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
      Try it
      > >
      now.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Benoit
      > Blog: http://www.flickr.com/photos/25123884@N04/sets/
      > Msn: wolf_inlyon@...
      > Tel: 06 29 12 45 89
      >
    • David A Barrett
      It seems to me that the measure of a great programmer is evolving. Decades ago, the very best progammers probably fit the classic nerd profile. They didn t
      Message 2 of 30 , May 8, 2008
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        It seems to me that the measure of a "great" programmer is evolving.
        Decades ago, the very best progammers probably fit the classic nerd
        profile. They didn't need social skills but they really needed to relate
        to the technology in order to make it perform magic. Then the paradigm
        shifted and the new "great" programmer needed the skills to relate to the
        user community and understand the business challenges.

        Now, I'd say that a "great" programmer needs to be able to work in a team
        environment. There's a whole new set of skills to be learned - things like
        influencing without authority - and personality traits that lead to
        success. To me, the effectiveness of Scrum (and Agile in general) is what
        makes this latest paradigm shift inevitable. Scrum teams just naturally
        outperform traditional models using Waterfall.

        I'd rather have a group of mediocre programmers committed to the principles
        of working together as a Team, than a bunch of misanthropic geniuses all
        looking for everyone else to bow down to their greatness. And by the way,
        most of these "I am much more senior..." programmers are long shot off from
        being geniuses.


        Dave Barrett,
        Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
      • William Berger
        ... Excellent post. I ve noticed this as well. This evolutionary process can t go fast enough for me. Regards, Bill Berger
        Message 3 of 30 , May 8, 2008
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          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, David A Barrett
          <dave.barrett@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > It seems to me that the measure of a "great" programmer is evolving.
          > ...etc...
          >
          > Dave Barrett,
          > Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
          >

          Excellent post. I've noticed this as well. This evolutionary process
          can't go fast enough for me.

          Regards,
          Bill Berger
        • Jeff
          a boss who wants a hard and firm estimate on a project that is guessed to be 3 months. i told him we could estimate sprints, but not the entire project to
          Message 4 of 30 , May 8, 2008
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            a boss who wants a "hard and firm" estimate on a project that is guessed to be 3 months.  i told him we could estimate sprints, but not the entire project to an exact.  i said just double or triple the estimate if he wants a firm and exact time frame.  His respnose was that if this was how we ran our construction division our company would be out of business.  This guy was all hard core scrum/agile a while ago, but now all he cares about is firm estimates, detailed documention, and his favorite words "critical path". he thinks that doing scrum is having a daily 15 minute call. I am trying to convince my other non-technical boss how wrong this is... .(yeah i have 3 bosses actually, its almost like an office space nightmare --the scene from the movie--) and that software development is not building widgets.  i now feel like i am a broken record and ready to just give up on all this.



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          • Ralph Jocham
            Was this boss promoted recently? It is a pattern I see, that when someone who believes in agile/scrum/lean gets promoted to a higher level management position,
            Message 5 of 30 , May 8, 2008
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              Was this boss promoted recently? It is a pattern I see, that when someone
              who believes in agile/scrum/lean gets promoted to a higher level management
              position, they suddenly forget their former beliefs. Not sure, if it is pressure related.

              You could try to explain and contrast 'Critical Chain' to 'Critical Path'.

              /ralph

              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Jeff <asp_jobs@...>
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2008 8:52:55 AM
              Subject: [scrumdevelopment] how to respond to....

              a boss who wants a "hard and firm" estimate on a project that is guessed to be 3 months.  i told him we could estimate sprints, but not the entire project to an exact.  i said just double or triple the estimate if he wants a firm and exact time frame.  His respnose was that if this was how we ran our construction division our company would be out of business.  This guy was all hard core scrum/agile a while ago, but now all he cares about is firm estimates, detailed documention, and his favorite words "critical path". he thinks that doing scrum is having a daily 15 minute call. I am trying to convince my other non-technical boss how wrong this is... .(yeah i have 3 bosses actually, its almost like an office space nightmare --the scene from the movie--) and that software development is not building widgets.  i now feel like i am a broken record and ready to just give up on all this.



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            • Ilja Preuss
              ... Well, there *is* a way to have a hard and firm estimate - have the *scope* soft and labile. ... Have you talked to people from your construction division
              Message 6 of 30 , May 8, 2008
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                Jeff wrote:
                > a boss who wants a "hard and firm" estimate on a project that is
                > guessed to be 3 months.

                Well, there *is* a way to have a hard and firm estimate - have the
                *scope* soft and labile.

                > i told him we could estimate sprints, but
                > not the entire project to an exact. i said just double or triple
                > the estimate if he wants a firm and exact time frame. His respnose
                > was that if this was how we ran our construction division our
                > company would be out of business.

                Have you talked to people from your construction division to learn how
                they estimate? Someone might learn something...

                Cheers, Ilja
              • Peter Stevens
                ... I was just reading through Ilja s blog . His latest entry is a nice piece on retrospectives, and in particular
                Message 7 of 30 , May 8, 2008
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                  barvybe wrote:

                  I'm actually not really sure I understand the issue. Just because the
                  "team" succeeds as one, doesn't mean that recognition, authority and
                  seniority don't exist. Even in pair programming, one of the pair is
                  typically senior. If the pair succeeds they would get most of the
                  credit and if they fail most of the blame as accountability for the
                  pair's work is mostly on the senior person's shoulders.

                   


                  
                  
                  I was just reading through Ilja's blog. His latest entry is a nice piece on retrospectives, and in particular "appreciative retrospectives", in which praise is given by the team to the other members of the team.

                  Personally I have become a big fan of using retrospectives to build a common understanding of what's happened, a common vision of what should be done and most important, appreciation for what the team has been doing well.

                  A little bit of ego soothing goes a long way ;-)

                  Cheers,

                  Peter
                  -- 
                  Peter Stevens, CSM
                  http://scrum-breakfast.blogspot.com
                  http://fingerspell.sierra-charlie.com
                  tel: +41 44 586 6450
                  
                • David H.
                  ... Without wanting to sound rude, but how do you use a retrospective. Yes I agree the CSM is a facilitator you are a neutral retrospective guide and based
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 8, 2008
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                    >
                    > Personally I have become a big fan of using retrospectives to build a

                    Without wanting to sound rude, but how do you "use" a retrospective.
                    Yes I agree the CSM is a facilitator you are a neutral retrospective
                    guide and based on your perception you will aim to guide the
                    retrospective towards a certain idea of a goal, but as the
                    retrospective is owned by the team, how do you use it?


                    -d
                    --
                    Sent from gmail so do not trust this communication.
                    Do not send me sensitive information here, ask for my none-gmail accounts.

                    "Therefore the considerations of the intelligent always include both
                    benefit and harm." - Sun Tzu
                  • Peter Stevens
                    Hi David, As scrum master coming to a new project, I have to teach everyone the rules of scrum and start the game . Step 1: get them motivated to play the
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 8, 2008
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                      Hi David,

                      As scrum master coming to a new project, I have to teach everyone the rules of scrum and start the "game". Step 1: get them motivated to play the game.

                      Scrum is a Denning(sp?) cycle: Plan -> Do -> Evaluate -> Improve, where "Improve" is the retrospective. Question: where is the best place to start if you want to get the team motivated and organizing itself?

                      I have done it both at Plan and Improve, where Plan is "Teach them Scrum, Do the Sprint Zero preplanning (definition of done, initial backlog, first planing meetings etc). Then start the first sprint." So I tell them they are going to be self organizing? Certain irony there, don't you think? And, my experience has been that this can plant the seeds of resistance in the team.

                      By starting with a retrospective, you are: Learning what has happened (and assuring that everybody knows and understands the important issues faced by everyone in the team), finding out what works well (a classic consultant's attitude is telling everyone what they have been doing wrong, so having the consultant find out and keep the good is a new experience for a lot of people), then ask them what can be improved, then let prioritize it. At the end of the process, the team is motivated to move forward.

                      I have started out with two projects in crisis using this method and found the results are fantastic, because a group of developers becomes a self organizing team -- without realizing it ;-) The only trick is making sure management is present for the retrospectives, so that the team will actually be allowed to do what they propose. If not, this can be a major impediment to success.

                      My experience has also been, 4 of the top 5 issues raised by the team in these situations are issues optimally addressed by Scrum, and so now everyone is ready and willing to hear the Scrum training. And so acceptance is much easier.

                      Cheers,

                      Peter

                      David H. wrote:

                      >
                      > Personally I have become a big fan of using retrospectives to build a

                      Without wanting to sound rude, but how do you "use" a retrospective.
                      Yes I agree the CSM is a facilitator you are a neutral retrospective
                      guide and based on your perception you will aim to guide the
                      retrospective towards a certain idea of a goal, but as the
                      retrospective is owned by the team, how do you use it?

                      -d
                      --
                      Sent from gmail so do not trust this communication.
                      Do not send me sensitive information here, ask for my none-gmail accounts.

                      "Therefore the considerations of the intelligent always include both
                      benefit and harm." - Sun Tzu



                      -- 
                      Peter Stevens, CSM
                      http://scrum-breakfast.blogspot.com
                      http://fingerspell.sierra-charlie.com
                      tel: +41 44 586 6450
                      
                    • Roy Morien
                      You clearly can t take a new group and say OK, now self-organise . My experience includes introducing a couple of hundred students to Scrum and iterative
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 10, 2008
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                        You clearly can't take a new group and say "OK, now self-organise". My experience includes introducing a couple of hundred students to Scrum and iterative development, after they had waterfall method pushed down their throats for 2 years before.
                         
                        The students were quite bewildered by this. Basically, I just told them "OK, we start with small iterations of 1 week'. You are expected to select enough work in the project for one week ... it is up to you what you select". I had a job on my hands to get them to produce code as part of their first couple of iterations ... they did the inevitable thing of trying to produce a lot of documentation that outran the construction. But, very soon they got the knack of this iterative stuff, and they started rolling along quite happilly. Ultimately it was considered a great success by most of them, after they saw the point of it all.
                         
                        In an industry environment, I can't see that this is a bad idea. But you would have a longer time to then start introducing other ideas and practices, such as testing regimes.
                         
                        What they did learn was that you do not need a full database schema design before you can construct the database. That was a great learning experience for them ... database evolution.
                         
                        Regards,
                        Roy Morien





                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        From: peterstev@...
                        Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 23:04:35 +0200
                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum Development - I am much more senior ...

                        Hi David,

                        As scrum master coming to a new project, I have to teach everyone the rules of scrum and start the "game". Step 1: get them motivated to play the game.

                        Scrum is a Denning(sp?) cycle: Plan -> Do -> Evaluate -> Improve, where "Improve" is the retrospective. Question: where is the best place to start if you want to get the team motivated and organizing itself?

                        I have done it both at Plan and Improve, where Plan is "Teach them Scrum, Do the Sprint Zero preplanning (definition of done, initial backlog, first planing meetings etc). Then start the first sprint." So I tell them they are going to be self organizing? Certain irony there, don't you think? And, my experience has been that this can plant the seeds of resistance in the team.

                        By starting with a retrospective, you are: Learning what has happened (and assuring that everybody knows and understands the important issues faced by everyone in the team), finding out what works well (a classic consultant's attitude is telling everyone what they have been doing wrong, so having the consultant find out and keep the good is a new experience for a lot of people), then ask them what can be improved, then let prioritize it. At the end of the process, the team is motivated to move forward.

                        I have started out with two projects in crisis using this method and found the results are fantastic, because a group of developers becomes a self organizing team -- without realizing it ;-) The only trick is making sure management is present for the retrospectives, so that the team will actually be allowed to do what they propose. If not, this can be a major impediment to success.

                        My experience has also been, 4 of the top 5 issues raised by the team in these situations are issues optimally addressed by Scrum, and so now everyone is ready and willing to hear the Scrum training. And so acceptance is much easier.

                        Cheers,

                        Peter

                        David H. wrote:

                        >
                        > Personally I have become a big fan of using retrospectives to build a

                        Without wanting to sound rude, but how do you "use" a retrospective.
                        Yes I agree the CSM is a facilitator you are a neutral retrospective
                        guide and based on your perception you will aim to guide the
                        retrospective towards a certain idea of a goal, but as the
                        retrospective is owned by the team, how do you use it?

                        -d
                        --
                        Sent from gmail so do not trust this communication.
                        Do not send me sensitive information here, ask for my none-gmail accounts.

                        "Therefore the considerations of the intelligent always include both
                        benefit and harm." - Sun Tzu



                        -- 
                        Peter Stevens, CSM
                        http://scrum- breakfast. blogspot. com
                        http://fingerspell. sierra-charlie. com
                        tel: +41 44 586 6450
                        



                        Click here Search for local singles online @ Lavalife.
                      • Roy Morien
                        A hard and firm estimate that is GUESSED ... yes, I suppose this is the way managers want it ... but what a contradiction, Regards, Roy Morien To:
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 10, 2008
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                          A 'hard and firm' estimate that is GUESSED ... yes, I suppose this is the way managers want it ... but what a contradiction,
                           
                          Regards,
                          Roy Morien





                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          From: it@...
                          Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 21:55:14 +0200
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] how to respond to....

                          Jeff wrote:
                          > a boss who wants a "hard and firm" estimate on a project that is
                          > guessed to be 3 months.

                          Well, there *is* a way to have a hard and firm estimate - have the
                          *scope* soft and labile.

                          > i told him we could estimate sprints, but
                          > not the entire project to an exact. i said just double or triple
                          > the estimate if he wants a firm and exact time frame. His respnose
                          > was that if this was how we ran our construction division our
                          > company would be out of business.

                          Have you talked to people from your construction division to learn how
                          they estimate? Someone might learn something...

                          Cheers, Ilja



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