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RE: [scrumdevelopment] Using MS SharePoint Office for Product and Sprint Backlogs

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  • Della-Croce, Greg
    David, Our domain users are not collocated. Within a short time, our Sprint Teams will also not be collocated. This is one reason we are looking at MOSS for
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 4, 2008
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      David,

                  Our domain users are not collocated.  Within a short time, our Sprint Teams will also not be collocated.   This is one reason we are looking at MOSS for some help. 

       

      Greg Della-Croce

      PM at Wycliffe-USA

       

      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David H.
      Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 11:11 AM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Using MS SharePoint Office for Product and Sprint Backlogs

       

      On Feb 4, 2008 4:04 PM, solutionbuilder <greg_della-croce@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > We are moving to MS SharePoint Office (MOSS 2007) to for out
      > Headquarters collaborative actives. I am untested to hear if anyone
      > out there have tried to use MOSS for Product and/or Sprint backlogs.
      >
      We tried it. Did not work. Are you colocated in one office?

      -d
      --
      Sent from gmail so do not trust this communication.
      Do not send me sensitive information here, ask for my none-gmail accounts.

      "Therefore the considerations of the intelligent always include both
      benefit and harm." - Sun Tzu

    • Michael James
      ... That s going to save HUNDREDS of dollars.... --mj
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 4, 2008
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        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Della-Croce, Greg" <greg_della-croce@...>
        wrote:
        > Within a short time, our Sprint Teams will also not be collocated.

        That's going to save HUNDREDS of dollars....


        --mj
      • Della-Croce, Greg
        Michael James said: Ø --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com , Della-Croce, Greg ...
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 4, 2008
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          Michael James said:

          Ø  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Della-Croce, Greg" <greg_della-croce@...>
          wrote:

          > Within a short time, our Sprint Teams will also not be collocated.

          That's going to save HUNDREDS of dollars....

           

          Michael that would be correct IF we were a for-profit group, we are not.   We have a very thin US Headquarters IT staff.  Most of them are, like me, supported by donations.   As we use more off-site/off-shore resources we actually have to pay these resources.    

           

          Add to that most of these people do not know SCRUM methods.   That means a lot of strain on the US staff to monitor and remotely train these people.  Most of them want us to “give them a defined task, they will do it, and charge us for it”   In an iterative methodology like SCRUM this can get interesting.  

           

          Add to that that most of our projects require a high touch with the domains to establish and monitor “done” and I am looking at Excedrin headache number 1489 through 2308 <grin>.    But since I do not influence that part of the business, I am trying to find ways to strengthen our collaboration with our main tool MS SharePoint Office (MOSS 2007).   I want to create the equivalent the Product Backlog, the Story board, and the card wall in MOSS.   I want to prototype this with our local staff and domains, and then start using it with the off-site domain people, then take it to off-shore.  

           

          It is a big job, but then I have a big God,

           

          Greg Della-Croce

          PM at Wycliffe-USA

          Ready   Fire   Aim

          Getting the Right  Job Done Right the Right Way in the Right Time

           

        • Ben Scheirman
          lol, well said... unfortunately most companies do not see clearly the overall cost of having distributed teams. This is a reality that a lot of us have to
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 4, 2008
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            lol, well said... unfortunately most companies do not see clearly the overall cost of having distributed teams.  This is a reality that a lot of us have to work with.

            I'd suggest against Sharepoint unless you're using it to host a simple excel spreadsheet to track your stories and tasks.  Have you looked at Mingle, TargetProcess, VersionOne or others?

            On Feb 4, 2008 11:08 AM, Michael James <michael@...> wrote:

            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Della-Croce, Greg" <greg_della-croce@...>


            wrote:
            > Within a short time, our Sprint Teams will also not be collocated.

            That's going to save HUNDREDS of dollars....

            --mj


          • Tobias Mayer
            Ben, ... I challenge you to hold that statement up for derision, and to begin instead by saying what reality would I like to work in . Reality isn t
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 4, 2008
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              Ben,

              > This is a reality that a lot of us have to work with.

              I challenge you to hold that statement up for derision, and to begin instead by saying "what reality would I like to work in".  Reality isn't something that happens, it is something we make.

              Greg, likewise...

              > Within a short time, our Sprint Teams will also not be collocated

              Why would you just accept that?  Work-around tools are no solution for bad decisions.

              Tobias



              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Scheirman" <subdigital@...> wrote:
              >
              > lol, well said... unfortunately most companies do not see clearly the
              > overall cost of having distributed teams. This is a reality that a lot of
              > us have to work with.
              >
              > I'd suggest against Sharepoint unless you're using it to host a simple excel
              > spreadsheet to track your stories and tasks. Have you looked at Mingle,
              > TargetProcess, VersionOne or others?
              >
              > On Feb 4, 2008 11:08 AM, Michael James michael@... wrote:
              >
              > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com<scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > > "Della-Croce, Greg" greg_della-croce@
              > >
              > > wrote:
              > > > Within a short time, our Sprint Teams will also not be collocated.
              > >
              > > That's going to save HUNDREDS of dollars....
              > >
              > > --mj
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Della-Croce, Greg
              Tobias, While I agree with you that we can and should push back on decisions that are less then optimal (sometimes a lot less), there are times that the
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 4, 2008
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                Tobias,

                            While I agree with you that we can and should push back on decisions that are less then optimal (sometimes a lot less), there are times that the management team that we are part of will decide to do it anyway.  Time, Resources (including people and money particularly in a not-for-profit during an economic turn down), and Quality are always limited.   The reality I would like to work in is the one where people would have donated their time and money to allow me to have a large enough local team to product the high quality projects in a Timely manner.  

                            Given that this is neither the reality I can work in nor can I make, I seek to find ways to use the tools that I have at hand to do the job at least with the High Quality my organization deserves!  I will always seek to hold a high quality standard, to be more timely in my delivery, and find those who will provide me with the resources.

                            Can you help me with using my current set of resources?

                 

                Greg Della-Croce

                PM at Wycliffe-USA

                 

                From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tobias Mayer
                Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 2:39 PM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Using MS SharePoint Office for Product and Sprint Backlogs

                 


                Ben,

                > This is a reality that a lot of us have to work with.

                I challenge you to hold that statement up for derision, and to begin instead by saying "what reality would I like to work in".  Reality isn't something that happens, it is something we make.

                Greg, likewise...

                > Within a short time, our Sprint Teams will also not be collocated

                Why would you just accept that?  Work-around tools are no solution for bad decisions.

                Tobias



                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Scheirman" <subdigital@...> wrote:
                >
                > lol, well said... unfortunately most companies do not see clearly the
                > overall cost of having distributed teams. This is a reality that a lot of
                > us have to work with.
                >
                > I'd suggest against Sharepoint unless you're using it to host a simple
                excel
                > spreadsheet to track your stories and tasks. Have you looked at Mingle,
                > TargetProcess, VersionOne or others?
                >
                > On Feb 4, 2! 008 11:08 AM, Michael James michael@... wrote:
                >
                > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com<scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > > "Della-Croce, Greg" greg_della-croce@
                > >
                > > wrote:
                > > > Within a short time, our Sprint Teams will also not be
                collocated.
                > >
                > > That's going to save HUNDREDS of dollars....
                > >
                > > --mj
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >

              • Tobias Mayer
                Greg, ... My own experience points to higher effectiveness from smaller co-located teams, rather than larger distributed ones. I d encourage you to start with
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 4, 2008
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                  Greg,

                  > Can you help me with using my current set of resources?

                  My own experience points to higher effectiveness from smaller co-located teams, rather than larger distributed ones.  I'd encourage you to start with the developers you have on site, even if it just 2 or 3, and encourage deep collaboration between product and development.

                  In one recent project we were told the team was expected to consist of 60+ developers, and for economic reasons they'd need to be mostly off-shore.  We pushed back and said let us start with a team of seven, locally.  That was in August.  The team is still seven, still local, and has exceeded the original release expectations.  It is quite likely that if we had gone with the original plan we would either have zero software right now, or software so low in quality as to actually be worse than having zero software.

                  I can't help you out on (electronic) tool advice as I tend to believe that often when that question is being asked something else is being overlooked.  If you have truly tried and failed with other possibilities I wish you luck with the tool search and there are many people on this list with good experience in the various collaboration tools who can advise you.  But please, don't give up on pushing for real change.  I like the sound of your ideal reality! 

                  Tobias


                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Della-Croce, Greg" <greg_della-croce@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Tobias,
                  >
                  > While I agree with you that we can and should push back on
                  > decisions that are less then optimal (sometimes a lot less), there are
                  > times that the management team that we are part of will decide to do it
                  > anyway. Time, Resources (including people and money particularly in a
                  > not-for-profit during an economic turn down), and Quality are always
                  > limited. The reality I would like to work in is the one where people
                  > would have donated their time and money to allow me to have a large
                  > enough local team to product the high quality projects in a Timely
                  > manner.
                  >
                  > Given that this is neither the reality I can work in nor can
                  > I make, I seek to find ways to use the tools that I have at hand to do
                  > the job at least with the High Quality my organization deserves! I will
                  > always seek to hold a high quality standard, to be more timely in my
                  > delivery, and find those who will provide me with the resources.
                  >
                  > Can you help me with using my current set of resources?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Greg Della-Croce
                  >
                  > PM at Wycliffe-USA
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tobias Mayer
                  > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 2:39 PM
                  > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Using MS SharePoint Office for Product
                  > and Sprint Backlogs
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Ben,
                  >
                  > > This is a reality that a lot of us have to work with.
                  >
                  > I challenge you to hold that statement up for derision, and to begin
                  > instead by saying "what reality would I like to work in". Reality isn't
                  > something that happens, it is something we make.
                  >
                  > Greg, likewise...
                  >
                  > > Within a short time, our Sprint Teams will also not be collocated
                  >
                  > Why would you just accept that? Work-around tools are no solution for
                  > bad decisions.
                  >
                  > Tobias
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Scheirman"
                  > subdigital@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > lol, well said... unfortunately most companies do not see clearly the
                  > > overall cost of having distributed teams. This is a reality that a lot
                  > of
                  > > us have to work with.
                  > >
                  > > I'd suggest against Sharepoint unless you're using it to host a simple
                  > excel
                  > > spreadsheet to track your stories and tasks. Have you looked at
                  > Mingle,
                  > > TargetProcess, VersionOne or others?
                  > >
                  > > On Feb 4, 2! 008 11:08 AM, Michael James michael@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > --- In
                  > scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com<scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > > "Della-Croce, Greg" greg_della-croce@
                  > > >
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > > Within a short time, our Sprint Teams will also not be collocated.
                  > > >
                  > > > That's going to save HUNDREDS of dollars....
                  > > >
                  > > > --mj
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Michael James
                  ... I didn t mean to make light of serious issues. Well, no actually I did. But I know you can take it. (ADVERTISEMENT) ScrumWorks Basic is still free. --mj
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 5, 2008
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                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Della-Croce, Greg" <greg_della-croce@...>
                    wrote:

                    >
                    > Michael that would be correct IF we were a for-profit group, we are not.

                    I didn't mean to make light of serious issues. Well, no actually I did.
                    But I know you can take it.

                    (ADVERTISEMENT)
                    ScrumWorks Basic is still free.

                    --mj
                  • Mattias Skarin
                    Hi I have run a project using SharePoint as a tool for a project with the following geographical setup: Location 1: Devteam + PO Location 2: Business people
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 5, 2008
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                      Hi

                      I have run a project using SharePoint as a tool for a project with the following geographical setup:

                      Location 1: Devteam + PO
                      Location 2: Business people and support staff
                      Location 3: Customer

                      My experiences:
                      The reason for testing sharepoint was because I thought it could be usable for both developers and normal business guys. In the end, it did the job but did not meet above goal.

                      Plus
                      • Web based (but Intranet web based)
                      • It did the job. However manual work had to be done for: updating burndown charts (daunting) 
                      • Stable once up and running
                      Minus
                      • No easy way of keeping burndown charts. The only option we found was adding a thirdparty graph modules must be added and coded to get this working (why does not Sharepoint include a graph module doh!).
                      • It is very difficult to share a sharepoint project externally if you have other projects on the site. Since we did not want your customer to see other Internal /customer projects we found not easy way to solve this. There are ways but they involve security decrease or a lot of synchronising work. We never got this up and runnint unfortunately.
                      • The project site setup required IT involvement and authorisation which might not be an overnight deal
                      • Backlogs was not that easy to setup and maintain as we wanted
                      • The filtering is not intuitive, users do not know how to do it or if they are looking at a filtered list
                      • It took our product owner 4 sprints to find the search field. It is just in front of you, but it tells me that it is not as user intuitive as I would have liked

                      I will not use Sharepoint again.

                      / Mattias
                    • Della-Croce, Greg
                      Thanks for the good input. All of you have been a good help in trying to see if this was a worthwhile project for me to pursue here. I am going to give it
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 5, 2008
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                        Thanks for the good input.   All of you have been a good help in trying to see if this was a worthwhile project for me to pursue here.   I am going to give it some more thought, but I am leaning against it for the moment.

                         

                        Greg Della-Croce

                        PM at Wycliffe-USA

                         

                        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mattias Skarin
                        Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:28 PM
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Using MS SharePoint Office for Product and Sprint Backlogs

                         

                        Hi

                        I have run a project using SharePoint as a tool for a project with the following geographical setup:

                        Location 1: Devteam + PO
                        Location 2: Business people and support staff
                        Location 3: Customer

                        My experiences:
                        The reason for testing sharepoint was because I thought it could be usable for both developers and normal business guys. In the end, it did the job but did not meet above goal.

                        Plus

                        • Web based (but Intranet web based)
                        • It did the job. However manual work had to be done for: updating burndown charts (daunting) 
                        • Stable once up and running

                        Minus

                        • No easy way of keeping burndown charts. The only option we found was adding a thirdparty graph modules must be added and coded to get this working (why does not Sharepoint include a graph module doh!).
                        • It is very difficult to share a sharepoint project externally if you have other projects on the site. Since we did not want your customer to see other Internal /customer projects we found not easy way to solve this. There are ways but they involve security decrease or a lot of synchronising work. We never got this up and runnint unfortunately.
                        • The project site setup required IT involvement and authorisation which might not be an overnight deal
                        • Backlogs was not that easy to setup and maintain as we wanted
                        • The filtering is not intuitive, users do not know how to do it or if they are looking at a filtered list
                        • It took our product owner 4 sprints to find the search field. It is just in front of you, but it tells me that it is not as user intuitive as I would have liked


                        I will not use Sharepoint again.

                        / Mattias

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