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RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Two articles in ComputerWorld

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  • Mike Cohn
    Ken- Why do you think it is that so many people have that reaction ( sounds good, but we already do that ) to Scrum? I ve thought about it a little bit before
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 21 7:46 AM
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      Ken—

       

      Why do you think it is that so many people have that reaction (“sounds good, but we already do that”) to Scrum?

       

      I’ve thought about it a little bit before and here are a couple of the reasons I think people react that way. I’m curious to hear what you or others think because you are right that this is a very common reaction.

       

       

      a)       People always react that way to something intuitive when it’s heard for the first time. We’ve probably all experienced this before—something so obvious that you didn’t know it is explained to you and then you can’t imagine not having known it.

      b)       With Scrum there are more things to stop doing than there are to do. Hence your book is 150 pages and Jacobsen’s on RUP is 460 pages. When told what Scrum is, people react with “Yeah, I do that AND MORE!!”  The “and more” is what they don’t realize gets them in trouble and away from agile. (I’d say it makes them non-agile, but Cockburn would turn his pet tiger loose on me.)

      c)       They just don’t get it. I’ve had numerous discussions with people as to why Scrum isn’t just a series of one month trips around a spiral or why it isn’t the same as incremental delivery.

       

       

      --Mike

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
      Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 8:18 AM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Two articles in ComputerWorld

       

      Right on the head!! Well said!!! I couldn't believe it when the
      Computerworld editor told me that everyone at Giga said, "Well, we already
      do that, same old stuff, some interesting ideas, but..." Reminds me of
      Rational and saying that RUP is agile. They are definitely lightening RUP,
      which is always good, but it missed the shift to agile to which you refer. I
      thought I was pretty blunt at the Giga conference in a panel discussion, but
      even with that they missed it.

      I'm working on a new speech which I'll call, "Well, we already that that",
      and see if I can get any more direct. However, I still get most of Scrum
      implementations where the current project has failed; people seem to operate
      better in desperation rather than with foresight.

      Ken

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Lowell Lindstrom [mailto:lindstrom@...]
      Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 9:09 AM
      To: 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Two articles in ComputerWorld


      It is great PR, so, yes, great going.

      But, boy, did those articles lack substance.  I didn't read anything that
      would compell me to change what I am doing today.

      As I read the increasing amount of press on Agile methods, I am increasing
      disallusioned by the quality of the what is being said.  How do we get these
      writers to understand what is really going on here?  That it is not simply a
      bunch of consultants that have figured out how to sell something new, but
      rather a fundamental shift in the way that software is being written and
      ultimately a shift in how software driven businesses will operate.

      Again, it is a great start, but there so much more substance to report on.
      How do we get that out there?

      Lowell

      ================
      Lowell Lindstrom
      Object Mentor, Inc | www.objectmentor.com | 1-800-338-6716
      lindstrom@...
      Office: 847-573-1565 x20   Fax:  847-573-1565
      Cell: 847-732-9330





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    • Narsu, Uttam
      Ken, I presume that you mean the attendees at the Giga conference , rather than everyone at Giga ! I certainly do not subscribe to the view that Agile
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 21 7:47 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Ken, I presume that you mean "the attendees at the Giga conference", rather
        than "everyone at Giga"! I certainly do not subscribe to the view that Agile
        methods are just the same old stuff repackaged, and neither does my
        co-presenter Liz Barnett. In fact, we made that quite clear at the
        presentation we gave the next day (sadly after you had already left the
        conference).

        I think a better point Carol could have emphasized is the tremendous
        interest in Agile methods. At the time of Liz's and my presentation, we were
        running two tracks, one a geek track and one a process/management track. Our
        talk on Agile methods packed the room, and outdrew the geek track, which is
        the inverse of what happened last year.

        In part, the "we do that, same old stuff" is not what I would have focus on.
        That attitude actually creates an easier sell to management, because
        people's minds are already half in agreement. I think the more problematic
        issue is why there is greater resistance in mainstream corporate North
        America (as opposed to the UK) over the value of Agile methods. In part,
        it's due to concern about the maturity of the ideas, but the greater part is
        due to the (still) prevalent view that one process can fit for all roles and
        all projects.

        Once that view is questioned (and I think Alastair Cockburn's work really
        hits home there), then the perception of Agile methods will change.

        P.S. Thanks for helping make the panel (Ken Schwaber, Martin Fowler, Jeff
        Bitner, Dale Churchett) a real highlight of the conference!

        Uttam

        --
        Uttam M. Narsu
        Vice President, Giga Information Group
        139 Main Street, 4th Floor
        Cambridge, MA 02142
        617-577-4730 617-577-4906 (fax)
        unarsu@... <mailto:unarsu@...>


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
        Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 10:18 AM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Two articles in ComputerWorld


        Right on the head!! Well said!!! I couldn't believe it when the
        Computerworld editor told me that everyone at Giga said, "Well, we already
        do that, same old stuff, some interesting ideas, but..." Reminds me of
        Rational and saying that RUP is agile. They are definitely lightening RUP,
        which is always good, but it missed the shift to agile to which you refer. I
        thought I was pretty blunt at the Giga conference in a panel discussion, but
        even with that they missed it.

        I'm working on a new speech which I'll call, "Well, we already that that",
        and see if I can get any more direct. However, I still get most of Scrum
        implementations where the current project has failed; people seem to operate
        better in desperation rather than with foresight.

        Ken

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Lowell Lindstrom [mailto:lindstrom@...]
        Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 9:09 AM
        To: 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com'
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Two articles in ComputerWorld


        It is great PR, so, yes, great going.

        But, boy, did those articles lack substance. I didn't read anything that
        would compell me to change what I am doing today.

        As I read the increasing amount of press on Agile methods, I am increasing
        disallusioned by the quality of the what is being said. How do we get these
        writers to understand what is really going on here? That it is not simply a
        bunch of consultants that have figured out how to sell something new, but
        rather a fundamental shift in the way that software is being written and
        ultimately a shift in how software driven businesses will operate.

        Again, it is a great start, but there so much more substance to report on.
        How do we get that out there?

        Lowell

        ================
        Lowell Lindstrom
        Object Mentor, Inc | www.objectmentor.com | 1-800-338-6716
        lindstrom@...
        Office: 847-573-1565 x20 Fax: 847-573-1565
        Cell: 847-732-9330





        To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
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      • Ken Schwaber
        Uttam and Mike, I know, we get so much excitement, but we re definitely at the early adopter stage. Alistair Cockburn did help get an article in the
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 21 8:23 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Uttam and Mike,
          I know, we get so much excitement, but we're definitely at the "early
          adopter" stage. Alistair Cockburn did help get an article in the Economist
          (pretty mainstream, there) in late September, but that didn't seem to have
          much of an impact. I really like the idea of the CEO asking the CIO to wash
          the car before doing an agile project, especially since he has so much extra
          time. Whew, enough sarcasm.

          I think Mike has some excellent points about why people tend to dismiss
          agile. I think the IT personality also plays into the picture: we want to
          act like we know what we're doing, have it covered, not to worry. This has
          been a pretty important cover story while we scramble to find out what
          really is going on. More resistance probably arises from the number of
          silver bullets that have been announced in our lifetimes; we get jaded.

          I was presenting Scrum to the management of a project that was purported to
          be in trouble; the technical architects understood and were all for it, the
          regular project and program managers were all for pretending that they were
          already doing it. I detected fear, fear of changing from something that they
          knew how to work, to something that was radically different and might be
          uncontrollable. I find that unless you have experienced the "agile epiphany"
          it is really hard to understand.

          Ross Taylor of TransCanada and I jointly wrote an article for Software
          Development Magazine (to be published in June) that describes this epiphany.
          I writing the article, I realized that there are several defining moments
          when the people really get it:

          Agile processes have several defining moments. When these happen, I know
          everything is going well and the expected benefits will result. At these
          moments, tkey participants really "get it." These key participants are the
          business project manager, the IT project manager, and the development
          team(s). These moments include:
          1. The business project manager realizing that it's ok to proceed without
          all of the requirements being defined.
          2. The business project manager seeing a product increment demonstrated at
          the end of each of the several Sprints. They realize that their involvement
          was important and had an immediate, tangible result. They also realize that
          the project will be successful and deliver them something they want and
          need.
          3. A team member realizing that someone will help when problems occur. After
          identifying an impediment or problem during a daily Scrum, either the
          ScrumMaster or a fellow team member provides immediate help to him or her.
          4. The IT project manager sensing teamwork after walking through a
          co-located team area where pair programming is going on. The buzz, energy,
          and focus are palpable.
          5. The business and IT Project Managers realizing they don't have to tell
          the team what to do and ensure that it does it.
          The team when it realizes that no one is going to tell it what to do; the
          team has to figure out what work to do on its own.

          Ken

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Narsu, Uttam [mailto:UNarsu@...]
          Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 10:47 AM
          To: 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com'
          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Two articles in ComputerWorld


          Ken, I presume that you mean "the attendees at the Giga conference", rather
          than "everyone at Giga"! I certainly do not subscribe to the view that Agile
          methods are just the same old stuff repackaged, and neither does my
          co-presenter Liz Barnett. In fact, we made that quite clear at the
          presentation we gave the next day (sadly after you had already left the
          conference).

          I think a better point Carol could have emphasized is the tremendous
          interest in Agile methods. At the time of Liz's and my presentation, we were
          running two tracks, one a geek track and one a process/management track. Our
          talk on Agile methods packed the room, and outdrew the geek track, which is
          the inverse of what happened last year.

          In part, the "we do that, same old stuff" is not what I would have focus on.
          That attitude actually creates an easier sell to management, because
          people's minds are already half in agreement. I think the more problematic
          issue is why there is greater resistance in mainstream corporate North
          America (as opposed to the UK) over the value of Agile methods. In part,
          it's due to concern about the maturity of the ideas, but the greater part is
          due to the (still) prevalent view that one process can fit for all roles and
          all projects.

          Once that view is questioned (and I think Alastair Cockburn's work really
          hits home there), then the perception of Agile methods will change.

          P.S. Thanks for helping make the panel (Ken Schwaber, Martin Fowler, Jeff
          Bitner, Dale Churchett) a real highlight of the conference!

          Uttam

          --
          Uttam M. Narsu
          Vice President, Giga Information Group
          139 Main Street, 4th Floor
          Cambridge, MA 02142
          617-577-4730 617-577-4906 (fax)
          unarsu@... <mailto:unarsu@...>


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
          Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 10:18 AM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Two articles in ComputerWorld


          Right on the head!! Well said!!! I couldn't believe it when the
          Computerworld editor told me that everyone at Giga said, "Well, we already
          do that, same old stuff, some interesting ideas, but..." Reminds me of
          Rational and saying that RUP is agile. They are definitely lightening RUP,
          which is always good, but it missed the shift to agile to which you refer. I
          thought I was pretty blunt at the Giga conference in a panel discussion, but
          even with that they missed it.

          I'm working on a new speech which I'll call, "Well, we already that that",
          and see if I can get any more direct. However, I still get most of Scrum
          implementations where the current project has failed; people seem to operate
          better in desperation rather than with foresight.

          Ken

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Lowell Lindstrom [mailto:lindstrom@...]
          Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 9:09 AM
          To: 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com'
          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Two articles in ComputerWorld


          It is great PR, so, yes, great going.

          But, boy, did those articles lack substance. I didn't read anything that
          would compell me to change what I am doing today.

          As I read the increasing amount of press on Agile methods, I am increasing
          disallusioned by the quality of the what is being said. How do we get these
          writers to understand what is really going on here? That it is not simply a
          bunch of consultants that have figured out how to sell something new, but
          rather a fundamental shift in the way that software is being written and
          ultimately a shift in how software driven businesses will operate.

          Again, it is a great start, but there so much more substance to report on.
          How do we get that out there?

          Lowell

          ================
          Lowell Lindstrom
          Object Mentor, Inc | www.objectmentor.com | 1-800-338-6716
          lindstrom@...
          Office: 847-573-1565 x20 Fax: 847-573-1565
          Cell: 847-732-9330





          To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





          To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
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        • Mike Cohn
          Ken- I really like that list of epiphanies. You are right that things are starting to go well when these occur. I d probably add two: 1a) you mention the
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 21 8:42 AM
          • 0 Attachment

            Ken—

            I really like that list of epiphanies. You are right that things are starting to go well when these occur. I’d probably add two:

             

            1a) you mention the business project manager deciding it’s OK to proceed without complete requirements but I think this also needs to come as an epiphany to programmers. I have had many programmers fight this concept (“I’ll just end up rewriting this” or “I’ll go ask for a lot more detail” or “I’ll build in flexibility to cover both cases”)

             

            6) When a team stops seeming like “testers and programmers” and just “developers”. This sometimes happens on agile projects but never seems to on non-agile projects (here comes that tiger again).

             

            I’m looking forward to your article.

             

            --Mike

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
            Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 9:24 AM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Two articles in ComputerWorld

             

            Uttam and Mike,
            I know, we get so much excitement, but we're definitely at the "early
            adopter" stage. Alistair Cockburn did help get an article in the Economist
            (pretty mainstream, there) in late September, but that didn't seem to have
            much of an impact. I really like the idea of the CEO asking the CIO to wash
            the car before doing an agile project, especially since he has so much extra
            time. Whew, enough sarcasm.

            I think Mike has some excellent points about why people tend to dismiss
            agile. I think the IT personality also plays into the picture: we want to
            act like we know what we're doing, have it covered, not to worry. This has
            been a pretty important cover story while we scramble to find out what
            really is going on. More resistance probably arises from the number of
            silver bullets that have been announced in our lifetimes; we get jaded.

            I was presenting Scrum to the management of a project that was purported to
            be in trouble; the technical architects understood and were all for it, the
            regular project and program managers were all for pretending that they were
            already doing it. I detected fear, fear of changing from something that they
            knew how to work, to something that was radically different and might be
            uncontrollable. I find that unless you have experienced the "agile epiphany"
            it is really hard to understand.

            Ross Taylor of TransCanada and I jointly wrote an article for Software
            Development Magazine (to be published in June) that describes this epiphany.
            I writing the article, I realized that there are several defining moments
            when the people really get it:

            Agile processes have several defining moments. When these happen, I know
            everything is going well and  the expected benefits will result. At these
            moments, tkey participants really "get it." These key participants are the
            business project manager, the IT project manager, and the development
            team(s). These moments include:
            1.      The business project manager realizing that it's ok to proceed without
            all of the requirements being defined.
            2.      The business project manager seeing a product increment demonstrated at
            the end of each of the several Sprints. They realize that their involvement
            was important and had an immediate, tangible result. They also realize that
            the project will be successful and deliver them something they want and
            need.
            3.      A team member realizing that someone will help when problems occur. After
            identifying an impediment or problem during a daily Scrum, either the
            ScrumMaster or a fellow team member provides immediate help to him or her.
            4.      The IT project manager sensing teamwork after walking through a
            co-located team area where pair programming is going on. The buzz, energy,
            and focus are palpable.
            5.      The business and IT Project Managers realizing they don't have to tell
            the team what to do and ensure that it does it.
            The team when it realizes that no one is going to tell it what to do; the
            team has to figure out what work to do on its own.

            Ken

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Narsu, Uttam [mailto:UNarsu@...]
            Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 10:47 AM
            To: 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com'
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Two articles in ComputerWorld


            Ken, I presume that you mean "the attendees at the Giga conference", rather
            than "everyone at Giga"! I certainly do not subscribe to the view that Agile
            methods are just the same old stuff repackaged, and neither does my
            co-presenter Liz Barnett. In fact, we made that quite clear at the
            presentation we gave the next day (sadly after you had already left the
            conference).

            I think a better point Carol could have emphasized is the tremendous
            interest in Agile methods. At the time of Liz's and my presentation, we were
            running two tracks, one a geek track and one a process/management track. Our
            talk on Agile methods packed the room, and outdrew the geek track, which is
            the inverse of what happened last year.

            In part, the "we do that, same old stuff" is not what I would have focus on.
            That attitude actually creates an easier sell to management, because
            people's minds are already half in agreement. I think the more problematic
            issue is why there is greater resistance in mainstream corporate North
            America (as opposed to the UK) over the value of Agile methods. In part,
            it's due to concern about the maturity of the ideas, but the greater part is
            due to the (still) prevalent view that one process can fit for all roles and
            all projects.

            Once that view is questioned (and I think Alastair Cockburn's work really
            hits home there), then the perception of Agile methods will change.

            P.S. Thanks for helping make the panel (Ken Schwaber, Martin Fowler, Jeff
            Bitner, Dale Churchett) a real highlight of the conference!

            Uttam

            --
            Uttam M. Narsu
            Vice President, Giga Information Group
            139 Main Street, 4th Floor
            Cambridge, MA   02142
            617-577-4730    617-577-4906 (fax)
            unarsu@... <mailto:unarsu@...>


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
            Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 10:18 AM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Two articles in ComputerWorld


            Right on the head!! Well said!!! I couldn't believe it when the
            Computerworld editor told me that everyone at Giga said, "Well, we already
            do that, same old stuff, some interesting ideas, but..." Reminds me of
            Rational and saying that RUP is agile. They are definitely lightening RUP,
            which is always good, but it missed the shift to agile to which you refer. I
            thought I was pretty blunt at the Giga conference in a panel discussion, but
            even with that they missed it.

            I'm working on a new speech which I'll call, "Well, we already that that",
            and see if I can get any more direct. However, I still get most of Scrum
            implementations where the current project has failed; people seem to operate
            better in desperation rather than with foresight.

            Ken

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Lowell Lindstrom [mailto:lindstrom@...]
            Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 9:09 AM
            To: 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com'
            Subject: [scrumdevelopment] RE: Two articles in ComputerWorld


            It is great PR, so, yes, great going.

            But, boy, did those articles lack substance.  I didn't read anything that
            would compell me to change what I am doing today.

            As I read the increasing amount of press on Agile methods, I am increasing
            disallusioned by the quality of the what is being said.  How do we get these
            writers to understand what is really going on here?  That it is not simply a
            bunch of consultants that have figured out how to sell something new, but
            rather a fundamental shift in the way that software is being written and
            ultimately a shift in how software driven businesses will operate.

            Again, it is a great start, but there so much more substance to report on.
            How do we get that out there?

            Lowell

            ================
            Lowell Lindstrom
            Object Mentor, Inc | www.objectmentor.com | 1-800-338-6716
            lindstrom@...
            Office: 847-573-1565 x20   Fax:  847-573-1565
            Cell: 847-732-9330





            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

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