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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Iteration Length

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  • Ron Jeffries
    ... What are the issues around skipping or shortening the panic period? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com The practices are not XP. They are a path to XP.
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 8 5:54 AM
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      On Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 7:57:12 AM, PaulOldfield1@... wrote:

      > (responding to Ken)

      >> What is the optimal length of an iteation, and what are
      >> the factors that are relevant to the various lengths of
      >> iterations that are deemed most appropriate?

      > There are surely a lot of answers to this.

      > About the only general, all-purpose reply I can give is
      > that if iterations are too long, people spend too long
      > 'relaxing' at the start of an iteration, and either the work
      > rate slows or there's too much to be covered in the
      > panic period at the end of the iteration; and if iterations
      > are too short, the panic period at the end of an iteration
      > takes up too much of the overall time and people
      > start to burn out.

      What are the issues around skipping or shortening the panic period?

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      The practices are not XP. They are a path to XP.
    • PaulOldfield1@compuserve.com
      (responding to Ron) ... Anything that can shorten the relaxation period and the panic period has got to be good. (?) More up-front analysis of the
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 8 9:36 AM
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        (responding to Ron)

        >> About the only general, all-purpose reply I can give is
        >> that if iterations are too long, people spend too long
        >> 'relaxing' at the start of an iteration, and either the work
        >> rate slows or there's too much to be covered in the
        >> panic period at the end of the iteration; and if iterations
        >> are too short, the panic period at the end of an iteration
        >> takes up too much of the overall time and people
        >> start to burn out.
        >
        > What are the issues around skipping or shortening the
        > panic period?

        Anything that can shorten the relaxation period and the
        panic period has got to be good. (?) More up-front
        analysis of the requirements seems to allow finer
        subdivision of requirements; finer subdivision of
        requirements seems to allow a regular pace throughout
        the iteration. I think the issues will be about how much
        up-front analysis is the right amount, and how much
        this varies between projects. We may end up with a
        trade-off between doing more up-front analysis and
        having a steady pace through the iteration.
        Feel free to differ.


        Paul Oldfield
        www.aptprocess.com
      • Mike Cohn
        I ve come to prefer two-week iterations. With a team that is very experienced and has worked together for a long time I ve had good success with four weeks. In
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 8 9:54 AM
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          I've come to prefer two-week iterations. With a team that is very
          experienced and has worked together for a long time I've had good success
          with four weeks. In general, though, two seems better. It gets a bit frantic
          with two week iterations to do all the planning and prep work. For example,
          we just finished a sprint on last Thursday. Friday was devoted to the sprint
          review and sprint planning. On Tuesday and Wednesday of this week (or just
          over a week from the next sprint start the following Friday) there will be
          planning meetings where the product owner and stakeholders argue about what
          to prioritize highest. The team isn't necessarily in these (some often are
          for short parts) but they take a lot of my time as ScrumMaster. Often out of
          these meetings we come up with new priorities or partial priorities from old
          ones--these require the team to estimate new work which we do some morning
          after the daily scrum.

          --Mike

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
          Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 10:16 PM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Iteration Length

          What is the optimal length of an iteation, and what are the factors
          that are relevant to the various lengths of iterations that are
          deemed most appropriate?
          Ken




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        • Joshua Kerievsky
          I went from doing 3 week iteraions to lots of 2 week iterations to lots of 1 week iterations. Now we routinely do either 1 or 2 week iterations. We prefer to
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 8 6:02 PM
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            I went from doing 3 week iteraions to lots of 2 week iterations to lots
            of 1 week iterations. Now we routinely do either 1 or 2 week
            iterations. We prefer to do 1-week iterations. However, we find that 2
            week iterations work better for our C++ clients, since they tend to have
            a lot of legacy code, which slows everything down. --jk
          • Matt Bennett
            ... Ken- I have been thinking more about this question of iteration length lately. I had a good bit of success 2 years ago as a developer on a couple XP
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 8 6:25 PM
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              > Message: 5
              > Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 05:16:28 -0000
              > From: "Ken Schwaber" <ken.schwaber@...>
              > Subject: Iteration Length
              >
              > What is the optimal length of an iteation, and what are the factors
              > that are relevant to the various lengths of iterations that are
              > deemed most appropriate?
              > Ken
              >

              Ken-

              I have been thinking more about this question of iteration length lately. I
              had a good bit of success 2 years ago as a developer on a couple XP projects
              with 2 or 3 week iterations. Now I am managing a team using mostly SCRUM
              elements. The team as a whole is on one-month cycles. This team is made up
              of 18 individuals including 3 business analysts, 1 architect, 1 ui designer,
              8 developers, and 5 testers. I have separated this group into 2 teams: the
              analysis team and the implementation team. The analysis team is always
              researching functional and technical specs for enhancements with both
              internal and external customers. These enhancements are coded and tested
              within the next month or so by the other team. The developers and testers
              work closely together to (drum-roll please) code and test all functionality
              that their team committed to for the month by the end of the month.

              So back to your question on iteration length, one month just seems too long
              for development. It is easy for the team to lack urgency early in the
              month, lose focus in the middle of the month, and finally have to pour all
              that urgency and focus into the last week or so. In my past experience,
              shorter iterations of 2 weeks seem to keep the pace moving. As a developer
              you knew that what you committed to needed to be completed soon, before you
              are working on something else. However, one month iterations are great for
              project reporting. I am starting to move towards a model of 2 week
              iterations for coding and testing within a monthly reporting of the planning
              and progress of the team.

              So my thoughts are that some of the factors of iteration length are:
              -Maturity of the items in the backlog: Is enough known about the items to
              start coding them almost immediately?
              -Size of the items: I have long argued that in new development that any
              piece of work can be broken down into smaller bits of work that can fit a
              small iteration cycle and still deliver complete functionality with each
              iteration. However, my thoughts on this have changed a bit since working on
              significant enhancements to an enterprise product. Many items require
              several developers for several weeks approaching an enhancement holistically
              to ensure that complete functionality can be delivered without adversely
              impacting the existing system.
              -Who/What are the iterations for? Management, the developers, the analysts,
              external customers? This probably seems like something that should strictly
              be driven by the development cycles, but sometimes the access to the
              customers is not frequent enough for shorter iterations. Of course that
              just points at a larger problem of customer involvement, but this cannot be
              ignored as a valid factor.
              -What is the intent of the iteration- to deliver new, tested functionality
              into a system? It seems that including the iteration planning meeting, the
              coding, the testing, the deployment, and the review meeting even for small
              items requires no less than 2 weeks from end-to-end.

              Since this is getting rather long-winded, I'll wait to see how others reply
              or add to this before I add more to this.

              Deceivingly simple question Ken asked isn't it? :)

              -Matt Bennett
            • Phlip
              ... Not sure how many plurals under we here. There are those who think that a young team should never vary iteration length from iteration to iteration, and
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 8 8:37 PM
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                Joshua Kerievsky wrote:

                > I went from doing 3 week iteraions to lots of 2 week
                > iterations to lots
                > of 1 week iterations. Now we routinely do either 1
                > or 2 week
                > iterations. We prefer to do 1-week iterations.
                > However, we find that 2
                > week iterations work better for our C++ clients,
                > since they tend to have
                > a lot of legacy code, which slows everything down.
                > --jk

                Not sure how many plurals under "we" here. There are
                those who think that a young team should never vary
                iteration length from iteration to iteration, and that
                a mature team shouldn't have a reason to. Do you mean
                that one team looks at its stack of stories and sets
                iteration length accordingly?

                Call this the "rhythm method"...

                =====
                Phlip
                http://www.xpsd.org/cgi-bin/wiki?TestFirstUserInterfaces

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              • acockburn@aol.com
                I read this as we Industrial Logic, with various clients .... some clients get 1-week iterations, some get 2-week iterations. The clients getting 2-week
                Message 7 of 27 , Feb 8 11:35 PM
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                  I read this as "we" Industrial Logic, with various clients .... some clients get 1-week iterations, some get 2-week iterations. The clients getting 2-week iterations tend to be those using C++.  I don't see an indication in Joshua's note that iteration length varies within a project, although with a mature team, I don't see that they couldn't arbitrarily change the iteration length to suit the circumstances discovered on planning day.
                   
                  In a message dated 2/8/2004 9:40:10 PM Mountain Standard Time, phlipcpp@... writes:
                  Joshua Kerievsky wrote:

                  > I went from doing 3 week iteraions to lots of 2 week
                  > iterations to lots
                  > of 1 week iterations.  Now we routinely do either 1
                  > or 2 week
                  > iterations.  We prefer to do 1-week iterations.
                  > However, we find that 2
                  > week iterations work better for our C++ clients,
                  > since they tend to have
                  > a lot of legacy code, which slows everything down.
                  > --jk

                  Not sure how many plurals under "we" here. There are
                  those who think that a young team should never vary
                  iteration length from iteration to iteration, and that
                  a mature team shouldn't have a reason to. Do you mean
                  that one team looks at its stack of stories and sets
                  iteration length accordingly?

                  Call this the "rhythm method"...

                  =====
                  Phlip
                  ==============================================
                  Alistair Cockburn
                  President, Humans and Technology

                  http://alistair.cockburn.us alistair.cockburn@...
                  1814 E. Fort Douglas Circle, Salt Lake City, UT 84103
                  Phone: 801.582-3162            Fax: 775.416.6457

                  Author of
                  "Surviving Object-Oriented Projects" (1998)
                  "Writing Effective Use Cases" (Jolt Productivity Award 2001)
                  "Agile Software Development" (Jolt Productivity Award 2002)

                  "La perfection est atteinte non quand il ne reste rien a ajouter,
                  mais quand il ne reste rien a enlever." (Saint-Exupery)
                  ==============================================

                • Phlip
                  ... I wasn t accusing. I pointed out his exact text was ambiguous, by adding the rhythm method context to the thread. Among its quantifyable benefits are a
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 9 1:02 AM
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                    acockburn@... wrote:

                    > I read this as "we" Industrial Logic, with various
                    > clients .... some clients
                    > get 1-week iterations, some get 2-week iterations.
                    > The clients getting 2-week
                    > iterations tend to be those using C++. I don't see
                    > an indication in Joshua's
                    > note that iteration length varies within a project,
                    > although with a mature
                    > team, I don't see that they couldn't arbitrarily
                    > change the iteration length to
                    > suit the circumstances discovered on planning day.

                    I wasn't accusing.

                    I pointed out his exact text was ambiguous, by adding
                    the "rhythm method" context to the thread. Among its
                    quantifyable benefits are a stable Yesterday's Weather
                    metric - or so I'm told. Accuse whoever told me that.

                    > "La perfection est atteinte non quand il ne reste
                    > rien a ajouter,
                    > mais quand il ne reste rien a enlever."
                    > (Saint-Exupery)

                    "le meilleur est l'ennemi du bien" ([apocryphally] Voltaire)

                    =====
                    Phlip
                    http://www.xpsd.org/cgi-bin/wiki?TestFirstUserInterfaces

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                  • Karl Scotland
                    ... A great ScrumMaster once told me, It depends on common sense :) Personally, I m doing one week iterations wih my team at the moment. I wouldn t
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 9 5:23 AM
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                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
                      >
                      > What is the optimal length of an iteation, and what are the factors
                      > that are relevant to the various lengths of iterations that are
                      > deemed most appropriate?

                      A great ScrumMaster once told me, "It depends on common sense" :)

                      Personally, I'm doing one week iterations wih my team at the moment. I
                      wouldn't necessarily work the same way with every team though. Others
                      seem to be saying the same thing.

                      Factirs which would affect my decision would include...
                      1) Business chaos - a business which is really ducking and diving would
                      benefit from shorter iterations.
                      2) Project length - the shorter the overall projects, the shorter the
                      iterations.
                      3) Technical ability - shorter iterations benefit less mature teams
                      because they promote more focus.

                      If I was working with a great team, on a longterm project, for a stable
                      business, I'd probably consider monthly iterations.

                      I've submitted a paper on doing weekly iterations with Scrum and XP for
                      the gathering. Hope it gets accepted :)

                      Karl

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                    • Joshua Kerievsky
                      ... We is Industrial Logic. We don t generally vary iteration length. However, we have changed iteration length mid-project, when we found that the length
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 9 6:54 AM
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                        Phlip wrote:

                        >Not sure how many plurals under "we" here. There are
                        >those who think that a young team should never vary
                        >iteration length from iteration to iteration, and that
                        >a mature team shouldn't have a reason to. Do you mean
                        >that one team looks at its stack of stories and sets
                        >iteration length accordingly?
                        >
                        >
                        We is Industrial Logic. We don't generally vary iteration length.
                        However, we have changed iteration length mid-project, when we found
                        that the length wasn't working well. We also once extended an iteration
                        by a week, as it was the last iteration before going into production and
                        it just felt right to the whole team to take an extra week for our work.

                        I once considered 1-week iterations to be a bad idea. "We'll spend too
                        much time planning and not have enough time programming." When I got
                        over my fear and actually tried it, I found that I loved 1-week
                        iterations. Customers learn to plan more efficiently by doing
                        continuous iteration planning preparation, customers gets to make
                        finer-grained changes to the plan and programmers have less time to do
                        wasteful work.

                        In our workshops, we do 3-hour iterations. That's like working under a
                        high-powered microscope -- every flaw gets revealed, which tends to
                        leads folks to important insights.

                        best regards,
                        jk

                        --
                        I n d u s t r i a l L o g i c , I n c .
                        Joshua Kerievsky
                        Founder, Extreme Programmer & Coach
                        http://industriallogic.com
                        http://industrialxp.org
                        866-540-8336 (toll free)
                        510-540-8336 (phone)
                        Berkeley, California
                      • Patrick Parato
                        We are currently using one week interations with success. We have a couple of reasons for doing just this. The development team and the business are both
                        Message 11 of 27 , Feb 9 7:42 AM
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                          We are currently using one week interations with success. We have a couple of reasons for doing just this. The development team and the business are both relatively new to Agile and we are trying to expose everybody to different types of situations quickly. We hope people will learn about the whole life cycle of an Agile project faster. By making the iterations more frequent, we get more practice with the overall Agile experience. We may be trading off some efficiency for some beneift in education, but everybody understands that the iteration length can change when it is considered necessary to do so.
                           
                          The only drawback we have seen is that the development team fizzles out close to the end of the iteration. The tasks will be all complete but people don't want to admit it because the one week iterations make them feel constantly under pressure. The developers don't really like the feeling that they can't vary thier effort depending on mood, health, or other external stimuli. Some developers believe that one month long iteration allows them more freedom to vary thier pace, and that the one week iteration is too much pressure. Very similar to micro management.
                           
                          Regards,
                           
                          Patrick Parato
                          CertaPay
                          Toronto, Canada
                        • Phlip
                          ... Weeks are biological, and part of our circadian rhythms. (Of course months are too, which we derive weeks from.) I suspect even rats kept in isolation from
                          Message 12 of 27 , Feb 9 7:51 AM
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                            Joshua Kerievsky wrote:

                            > I once considered 1-week iterations to be a bad
                            > idea.

                            Weeks are biological, and part of our circadian
                            rhythms. (Of course months are too, which we derive
                            weeks from.)

                            I suspect even rats kept in isolation from cues to the
                            date vary their activity patterns in synch with human
                            weekends.


                            =====
                            Phlip
                            http://www.xpsd.org/cgi-bin/wiki?TestFirstUserInterfaces

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                          • Michael Campbell
                            ... Never knew that. Why is it then that only 1 month, and then only 75% of the time even HAS an integral # of them? __________________________________ Do you
                            Message 13 of 27 , Feb 9 8:14 AM
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                              Phlip wrote:

                              > Weeks are biological, and part of our circadian
                              > rhythms. (Of course months are too, which we derive
                              > weeks from.)

                              Never knew that. Why is it then that only 1 month, and then only
                              75% of the time even HAS an integral # of them?


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                            • Joshua Kerievsky
                              ... By planning according to a team s velocity (which is calculated at every iteration end), XPers ensure that programmers have enough time to implement
                              Message 14 of 27 , Feb 9 8:19 AM
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                                Patrick Parato wrote:

                                > We are currently using one week interations with success. We have a
                                > couple of reasons for doing just this. The development team and the
                                > business are both relatively new to Agile and we are trying to expose
                                > everybody to different types of situations quickly. We hope people
                                > will learn about the whole life cycle of an Agile project faster. By
                                > making the iterations more frequent, we get more practice with the
                                > overall Agile experience. We may be trading off some efficiency for
                                > some beneift in education, but everybody understands that the
                                > iteration length can change when it is considered necessary to do so.
                                >
                                > The only drawback we have seen is that the development team fizzles
                                > out close to the end of the iteration. The tasks will be all complete
                                > but people don't want to admit it because the one week iterations make
                                > them feel constantly under pressure. The developers don't really like
                                > the feeling that they can't vary thier effort depending on mood,
                                > health, or other external stimuli. Some developers believe that one
                                > month long iteration allows them more freedom to vary thier pace, and
                                > that the one week iteration is too much pressure. Very similar to
                                > micro management.

                                By planning according to a team's velocity (which is calculated at every
                                iteration end), XPers ensure that programmers have enough time to
                                implement iteration stories using good development practices without
                                feeling under pressure. Feeling under pressure results from committing
                                to doing too much during a given period of time. So 1-week iterations
                                don't cause pressure. Taking on more work than you can do causes
                                pressure. Yet many programmers haven't yet had that insight.

                                best regards
                                jk
                              • Phlip
                                ... Uh, because periods of the rotation of the Earth, its orbit, and the Moon s orbit all don t divide evenly? ===== Phlip
                                Message 15 of 27 , Feb 9 8:51 AM
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                                  Michael Campbell wrote:

                                  > Never knew that. Why is it then that only 1 month,
                                  > and then only
                                  > 75% of the time even HAS an integral # of them?

                                  Uh, because periods of the rotation of the Earth, its
                                  orbit, and the Moon's orbit all don't divide evenly?


                                  =====
                                  Phlip
                                  http://www.xpsd.org/cgi-bin/wiki?TestFirstUserInterfaces

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                                • Steven Gordon
                                  That would argue that days and months (and years) are natural, but not weeks. ... From: Phlip [mailto:phlipcpp@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:52
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Feb 9 9:52 AM
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                                    That would argue that days and months (and years) are natural, but not weeks.
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Phlip [mailto:phlipcpp@...]
                                    Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:52 AM
                                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Iteration Length

                                    Michael Campbell wrote:

                                    > Never knew that.  Why is it then that only 1 month,
                                    > and then only
                                    > 75% of the time even HAS an integral # of them?

                                    Uh, because periods of the rotation of the Earth, its
                                    orbit, and the Moon's orbit all don't divide evenly?


                                    =====
                                    Phlip
                                        http://www.xpsd.org/cgi-bin/wiki?TestFirstUserInterfaces

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                                  • J. B. Rainsberger
                                    ... I have enjoyed two-weeks iterations to start a project, then one-week iterations, as needed, towards the release date. The idea is that we need larger
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Feb 9 12:32 PM
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                                      Ken Schwaber wrote:

                                      > What is the optimal length of an iteation, and what are the factors
                                      > that are relevant to the various lengths of iterations that are
                                      > deemed most appropriate?

                                      I have enjoyed two-weeks iterations to start a project, then one-week
                                      iterations, as needed, towards the release date.

                                      The idea is that we need larger chunks of time to hit our stride and to
                                      allow for some experimental error. Without that experimental time, we
                                      tend not to learn as much, which inhibits our ability to prepare for the
                                      next game.

                                      I find that one-week iterations are best for focusing on doing what we
                                      know how to do. At this granularity, we can steer very well. I find that
                                      two-week iterations are best when we need to learn things, because then
                                      we feel less pressure when we might accidentally burn a day or two going
                                      down a rathole.
                                      --
                                      J. B. Rainsberger,
                                      Diaspar Software Services
                                      http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
                                      Let's write software that people understand
                                    • agiletoken
                                      I totally agree. I have implemented an agile process with four (4) one (1) week iterations enveloped within a 30 day Scrum Sprint. The one week XP interations
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Feb 11 11:03 AM
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                                        I totally agree. I have implemented an agile process with four (4)
                                        one (1) week iterations enveloped within a 30 day Scrum Sprint. The
                                        one week XP interations enforce good engineering practices and the 30
                                        day sprint ensures business to technical community alignment. The
                                        team meets Monday morning and establishes goals for the week - taken
                                        from sprint backlog.

                                        The daily standup reflects on the progress for the. The team has an
                                        option to change the goals for the week on Wednesday, as it is a mid-
                                        point and the team generally has a very good idea on whether the
                                        goals will be met on Friday. On Friday, the team confirms the
                                        deliverables. From the engineering perspective, the once the team
                                        commits to the Friday goals, no one leaves until the team has
                                        delivered the goals and an integration build completed and all
                                        testcases executed.

                                        Tareq



                                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Joshua Kerievsky <jlk@i...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > Patrick Parato wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > We are currently using one week interations with success. We have
                                        a
                                        > > couple of reasons for doing just this. The development team and
                                        the
                                        > > business are both relatively new to Agile and we are trying to
                                        expose
                                        > > everybody to different types of situations quickly. We hope
                                        people
                                        > > will learn about the whole life cycle of an Agile project faster.
                                        By
                                        > > making the iterations more frequent, we get more practice with
                                        the
                                        > > overall Agile experience. We may be trading off some efficiency
                                        for
                                        > > some beneift in education, but everybody understands that the
                                        > > iteration length can change when it is considered necessary to do
                                        so.
                                        > >
                                        > > The only drawback we have seen is that the development team
                                        fizzles
                                        > > out close to the end of the iteration. The tasks will be all
                                        complete
                                        > > but people don't want to admit it because the one week iterations
                                        make
                                        > > them feel constantly under pressure. The developers don't really
                                        like
                                        > > the feeling that they can't vary thier effort depending on mood,
                                        > > health, or other external stimuli. Some developers believe that
                                        one
                                        > > month long iteration allows them more freedom to vary thier pace,
                                        and
                                        > > that the one week iteration is too much pressure. Very similar to
                                        > > micro management.
                                        >
                                        > By planning according to a team's velocity (which is calculated at
                                        every
                                        > iteration end), XPers ensure that programmers have enough time to
                                        > implement iteration stories using good development practices
                                        without
                                        > feeling under pressure. Feeling under pressure results from
                                        committing
                                        > to doing too much during a given period of time. So 1-week
                                        iterations
                                        > don't cause pressure. Taking on more work than you can do causes
                                        > pressure. Yet many programmers haven't yet had that insight.
                                        >
                                        > best regards
                                        > jk
                                      • Ken Schwaber
                                        Does the length of the iteration have any impact on the granularity of the input (Stories, Product Backlog). What is the type of demonstration that is desired
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Feb 11 12:36 PM
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                                          Does the length of the iteration have any impact on the granularity of the
                                          input (Stories, Product Backlog). What is the type of demonstration that is
                                          desired at the end of the iteration?
                                          Ken

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Joshua Kerievsky [mailto:jlk@...]
                                          Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 9:02 PM
                                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Iteration Length


                                          I went from doing 3 week iteraions to lots of 2 week iterations to lots
                                          of 1 week iterations. Now we routinely do either 1 or 2 week
                                          iterations. We prefer to do 1-week iterations. However, we find that 2
                                          week iterations work better for our C++ clients, since they tend to have
                                          a lot of legacy code, which slows everything down. --jk






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                                        • Joshua Kerievsky
                                          ... The sizing of iteration stories isn t impacted by iteration length, at least the way we do it. At the end of each iteration, a customer demonstrates the
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Feb 12 6:00 PM
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                                            Ken Schwaber wrote:

                                            >Does the length of the iteration have any impact on the granularity of the
                                            >input (Stories, Product Backlog). What is the type of demonstration that is
                                            >desired at the end of the iteration?
                                            >
                                            The sizing of iteration stories isn't impacted by iteration length, at least the way we do it. At the end of each iteration, a customer demonstrates the new features we've added to the system. Of late, the customer also demonstrates some of the FIT-based storytests we've produced. Upper management attends these iteration demonstrations. We find that they like to see both the system and a few of its new storytests.

                                            best regards,
                                            jk

                                            --
                                            I n d u s t r i a l L o g i c , I n c .
                                            Joshua Kerievsky
                                            Founder, Extreme Programmer & Coach
                                            http://industriallogic.com
                                            http://industrialxp.org
                                            866-540-8336 (toll free)
                                            510-540-8336 (phone)
                                            Berkeley, California
                                          • Devon Miller
                                            Actually, weeks are natural too. They correspond to the phases of the moon New moon, waxing quarter, full moon, waning quarter.
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Feb 14 1:12 AM
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                                              Actually, weeks are natural too. They correspond to the phases of the moon
                                              New moon, waxing quarter, full moon, waning quarter.

                                              Steven Gordon wrote:

                                              > That would argue that days and months (and years) are natural, but not
                                              > weeks.
                                              >
                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > *From:* Phlip [mailto:phlipcpp@...]
                                              > *Sent:* Monday, February 09, 2004 9:52 AM
                                              > *To:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                              > *Subject:* Re: [scrumdevelopment] Iteration Length
                                              >
                                              > Michael Campbell wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > Never knew that. Why is it then that only 1 month,
                                              > > and then only
                                              > > 75% of the time even HAS an integral # of them?
                                              >
                                              > Uh, because periods of the rotation of the Earth, its
                                              > orbit, and the Moon's orbit all don't divide evenly?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > =====
                                              > Phlip
                                              > http://www.xpsd.org/cgi-bin/wiki?TestFirstUserInterfaces
                                              >
                                            • Phlip
                                              ... Ken pointed out he forbade the Industrial Logic metaphor of nebulous units of time because nobody needed we got big NUTs getting back to any number of
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Feb 14 2:52 AM
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                                                Devon Miller wrote:

                                                > Actually, weeks are natural too. They correspond to
                                                > the phases of the moon
                                                > New moon, waxing quarter, full moon, waning quarter.

                                                Ken pointed out he forbade the Industrial Logic
                                                metaphor of "nebulous units of time" because nobody
                                                needed "we got big NUTs" getting back to any number of
                                                Human Resource Departments.

                                                (I wax nostalgic for Omnigon's way cool HR department.
                                                Whenever she wandered into the programming pit we'd
                                                drop what we were doing and indulge in the most
                                                advanced and witty HR harrassment. She know'd she'd
                                                had to start this with her standard lecture at hiring
                                                time; we all had a blast. But some HR is hired because
                                                they help the brass think they'l reduce their odds of
                                                getting sued.)

                                                Workplace diversity requires us to allow folks who
                                                don't "believe in" bicameralism, or this or that
                                                diety, or lunar phases, to opt-out without limiting
                                                their own career.

                                                A lunar week is a nebulous unit of time - 7 days ~11
                                                hours - and matching iterations to it would cause
                                                friction on two fronts - the business calendar and the
                                                diversity aspect.

                                                But evoking biological circadian rhythms as the
                                                natural basis for our calendar, and iteration lengths,
                                                might be pragmatic.


                                                =====
                                                Phlip
                                                http://www.xpsd.org/cgi-bin/wiki?TestFirstUserInterfaces

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                                              • Doug Swartz
                                                ... Some of us in Nebraska, various Canadian provinces, and 50 some democratic nations around the world, take issue with your blatant anti-unicameral bias. Our
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Feb 14 5:48 AM
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                                                  Saturday, February 14, 2004, 4:52:41 AM, Phlip wrote:

                                                  > Workplace diversity requires us to allow folks who
                                                  > don't "believe in" bicameralism, ....

                                                  Some of us in Nebraska, various Canadian provinces, and 50
                                                  some democratic nations around the world, take issue with your
                                                  blatant anti-unicameral bias. Our "uni's" are just as capable
                                                  of passing stupid legislation at the speed of a glacier, as
                                                  your "bi's"! But, we only have to pay one legislator, instead
                                                  of two.

                                                  The moderators of this esteemed list should take note of your
                                                  predilection to promote mono-culture and consider banning your
                                                  deviant opinions from the list.




                                                  --

                                                  ;-)
                                                  Doug Swartz
                                                  daswartz@...
                                                • Phlip
                                                  ... And that was how, in early 2004, the beginnings of a schism appeared in the previously solid mailing list, ScrumDevelopment...
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Feb 14 10:26 AM
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                                                    Doug Swartz wrote:

                                                    > Phlip wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > Workplace diversity requires us to allow folks who
                                                    > > don't "believe in" bicameralism, ....
                                                    >
                                                    > Some of us in Nebraska, various Canadian provinces,
                                                    > and 50
                                                    > some democratic nations around the world, take issue
                                                    > with your
                                                    > blatant anti-unicameral bias. Our "uni's" are just
                                                    > as capable
                                                    > of passing stupid legislation at the speed of a
                                                    > glacier, as
                                                    > your "bi's"! But, we only have to pay one
                                                    > legislator, instead
                                                    > of two.

                                                    <ponderously>
                                                    And that was how, in early 2004, the
                                                    beginnings of a schism appeared in the
                                                    previously solid mailing list,
                                                    ScrumDevelopment...
                                                    </ponderously>

                                                    > The moderators of this esteemed list should take
                                                    > note of your
                                                    > predilection to promote mono-culture and consider
                                                    > banning your
                                                    > deviant opinions from the list.

                                                    Hey - my coffee is shade-grown, pal!

                                                    > ;-)
                                                    > Doug Swartz
                                                    > daswartz@...

                                                    ( http://eatthestate.org/05-22/FairTradeCoffee.htm for
                                                    those who didn't catch that last one... )

                                                    =====
                                                    Phlip
                                                    http://www.xpsd.org/cgi-bin/wiki?TestFirstUserInterfaces

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