Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [scrumdevelopment] Matrix Comparison Plan-Driven Agile Development

Expand Messages
  • Steven Gordon
    Lowering risk exposure is like taking out insurance. You just have to show him that this insurance is a good deal. If this argument does not work, ask the
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 3, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      Lowering risk exposure is like taking out insurance.  You just have to show him that this insurance is a good deal.  If this argument does not work, ask the financial controller why he bothers to pay for home owner's insurance when it clearly raised the cost of owning his home this year (assuming he made no claims on his home owner's insurance this year)?
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Boris Gloger [mailto:boris@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:47 AM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: heribert.ley@...
      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Matrix Comparison Plan-Driven Agile Development

      Great answer, and you got exactly my initial reaction, when I was asked this question, that I wanted to rephrase in my bad english.

      But on the other side, this answer is not really helpful if you want to convince someone who will look at the money aspects of project, right?

      Boris


      On Wednesday, Dec 3, 2003, at 18:30 Europe/Vienna, acockburn@... wrote:

      Ouch - this is a scary request
      In theory, a perfectly run sequential process should be less expensive than an perfectly run agile project, so don't go to the theory. In the same theory, agile projects are shorter. Which is more important to you?
      However, as they say, 'In theory, practice is simple." It is only in practice that practice is not.
      In practice, a perfect of either is hard to come by. If agile comes out less expensive, it is because it recovers from unexpected surprises less expensively.
      Alistair
      In a message dated 12/3/2003 9:58:45 AM Mountain Standard Time, boris@... writes:



      does anybody has a comparison table which states what financial
      benefits an agile development project has to a plan-driven project?

      I looking for something that would satisfy a financial controller.

      Maybe this were the cost of project x and this were a similar project 
      x done with agile pm.

      Thanks

      Boris Gloger


      ==============================================
      Alistair Cockburn
      President, Humans and Technology

      http://alistair.cockburn.us alistair.cockburn@...
      1814 E. Fort Douglas Circle, Salt Lake City, UT 84103
      Phone: 801.582-3162            Fax: 775.416.6457

      Author of
      "Surviving Object-Oriented Projects" (1998)
      "Writing Effective Use Cases" (Jolt Productivity Award 2001)
      "Agile Software Development" (Jolt Productivity Award 2002)

      "La perfection est atteinte non quand il ne reste rien a ajouter,
      mais quand il ne reste rien a enlever." (Saint-Exupery)
      ==============================================

      <image.tiff>


      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      Boris Gloger

      Vienna, Austria
      +43 699 1699 4977
    • magarrigue
      Ok, you can have a look at: http://www.favaro.net/publications/Extreme_Prog.pdf “The most vital quality a soldier can possess is self-confidence” (George
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 3, 2003
      • 0 Attachment

        Ok, you can have a look at:

         

        http://www.favaro.net/publications/Extreme_Prog.pdf

         

        “The most vital quality a soldier can possess is self-confidence” (George S. Patton).

        ;)

         

        Marc-Antoine GARRIGUE

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Boris Gloger [mailto:boris@...]
        Sent: mercredi 3 décembre 2003 18:47
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: heribert.ley@...
        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Matrix Comparison Plan-Driven Agile Development

         

        Great answer, and you got exactly my initial reaction, when I was asked this question, that I wanted to rephrase in my bad english.

        But on the other side, this answer is not really helpful if you want to convince someone who will look at the money aspects of project, right?

        Boris


        On Wednesday, Dec 3, 2003, at 18:30 Europe/Vienna, acockburn@... wrote:

        Ouch - this is a scary request
        In theory, a perfectly run sequential process should be less expensive than an perfectly run agile project, so don't go to the theory. In the same theory, agile projects are shorter. Which is more important to you?
        However, as they say, 'In theory, practice is simple." It is only in practice that practice is not.
        In practice, a perfect of either is hard to come by. If agile comes out less expensive, it is because it recovers from unexpected surprises less expensively.
        Alistair
         
         
        In a message dated 12/3/2003 9:58:45 AM Mountain Standard Time, boris@... writes:



        does anybody has a comparison table which states what financial
        benefits an agile development project has to a plan-driven project?

        I looking for something that would satisfy a financial controller.

        Maybe this were the cost of project x and this were a similar project 
        x done with agile pm.

        Thanks

        Boris Gloger


         
        ==============================================
        Alistair Cockburn
        President, Humans and Technology

        http://alistair.cockburn.us alistair.cockburn@...
        1814 E. Fort Douglas Circle, Salt Lake City, UT 84103
        Phone: 801.582-3162            Fax: 775.416.6457

        Author of
        "Surviving Object-Oriented Projects" (1998)
        "Writing Effective Use Cases" (Jolt Productivity Award 2001)
        "Agile Software Development" (Jolt Productivity Award 2002)

        "La perfection est atteinte non quand il ne reste rien a ajouter,
        mais quand il ne reste rien a enlever." (Saint-Exupery)
        ==============================================

        <image.tiff>



        To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .

        Boris Gloger

        Vienna, Austria
        +43 699 1699 4977

      • Ron Jeffries
        ... I think that if money people are trying to assess what approach programmers should take to their work, they have been asked the wrong question. Ron
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 3, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          On Wednesday, December 3, 2003, at 12:46:36 PM, Boris Gloger wrote:

          > But on the other side, this answer is not really helpful if you want to
          > convince someone who will look at the money aspects of project, right?

          I think that if money people are trying to assess what approach programmers
          should take to their work, they have been asked the wrong question.

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          You have to either laugh or cry. -- Bill Rogers
        • J. B. Rainsberger
          ... I would think that Agile as Risk Management would appeal to that person. A sequential project costs $1M to $4M. The same Agile project costs $1.5M to
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 3, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            Boris Gloger wrote:

            > Great answer, and you got exactly my initial reaction, when I was asked
            > this question, that I wanted to rephrase in my bad english.
            >
            > But on the other side, this answer is not really helpful if you want to
            > convince someone who will look at the money aspects of project, right?

            I would think that Agile as Risk Management would appeal to that person.

            "A sequential project costs $1M to $4M. The same Agile project costs
            $1.5M to $2.5M. How much do you want to bet that /this/ project done
            sequential will cost less than $1.5M?"
            --
            J. B. Rainsberger,
            Diaspar Software Services
            http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
            Let's write software that people understand
          • acockburn@aol.com
            ... at the money aspect, is to lie to him/her? I can t do that. If agile is not less expensive, then don t advertise it as less expensive. That can only put
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 3, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              ---> You mean the alternative, when I want to convince someone who will look at the money aspect, is to lie to him/her?  I can't do that.
               
              If agile is not less expensive, then don't advertise it as less expensive. That can only put you into a bad position for later, when they count the money.
               
              It may be, however, that the money argument runs as follows: get it out sooner using agile approaches, and start collecting revenue earlier. Then run the numbers for that scenario.
               
              Or, get half of it out very much earlier and starting collecting partial revenue much earlier. The numbers for that should look much more attractive.   But both of these depend on the marketability of early deliveries.
               
              Personally, I advocate agile approaches as lowering the probability of failure (a noticeable but generally unquantified cost in itself), and as being more efficient (here's your lower cost) because we dump a bunch of the costly bureaucratic stuff other projects are made to do.
               
              There's nothing in the agile manifesto that says "dump the costly bureaucratic stuff." This permits me to talk to CMM 3 / 4 / 5 agencies and say, "keep all the bureaucratic stuff, just move the people closer together, deliver a working increment every month, hold reflection workshops and attend to morale. You'll notice already you're better off."  However, most of us agile types, when given control of a project, will instantly dump the costly bureaucratic stuff.
               
              I don't know how to assuage any financial
               
               
              In a message dated 12/3/2003 12:24:36 PM Mountain Standard Time, magarrigue@... writes:


              But on the other side, this answer is not really helpful if you want to convince someone who will look at the money aspects of project, right?

              Boris


              On Wednesday, Dec 3, 2003, at 18:30 Europe/Vienna, acockburn@... wrote:

              Ouch - this is a scary request
              In theory, a perfectly run sequential process should be less expensive than an perfectly run agile project, so don't go to the theory. In the same theory, agile projects are shorter. Which is more important to you?
              However, as they say, 'In theory, practice is simple." It is only in practice that practice is not.
              In practice, a perfect of either is hard to come by. If agile comes out less expensive, it is because it recovers from unexpected surprises less expensively.

               
              ==============================================
              Alistair Cockburn
              President, Humans and Technology

              http://alistair.cockburn.us alistair.cockburn@...
              1814 E. Fort Douglas Circle, Salt Lake City, UT 84103
              Phone: 801.582-3162            Fax: 775.416.6457

              Author of
              "Surviving Object-Oriented Projects" (1998)
              "Writing Effective Use Cases" (Jolt Productivity Award 2001)
              "Agile Software Development" (Jolt Productivity Award 2002)

              "La perfection est atteinte non quand il ne reste rien a ajouter,
              mais quand il ne reste rien a enlever." (Saint-Exupery)
              ==============================================
            • PaulOldfield1@compuserve.com
              ... Tell the truth if the question is asked... There is a theoretical ideal process for any project. If it were possible to know this in advance, then using it
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 4, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                >> (Alistair)
                >> In theory, a perfectly run sequential process should be
                >> less expensive than an perfectly run agile project, so
                >> don't go to the theory. In the same theory, agile projects
                >> are shorter. Which is more important to you?

                > (Boris)
                > You mean the alternative, when I want to convince someone
                > who will look at the money aspect, is to lie to him/her?
                > I can't do that.

                Tell the truth if the question is asked...

                There is a theoretical ideal process for any project.
                If it were possible to know this in advance, then using it
                from the start would be cheaper.
                The person that has the best information to make the decision
                on what is ideal is the person who is just about to enact an
                element of the process.
                Conclusion - the theoretical ideal process cannot be known
                in advance, it becomes revealed just before it is enacted.

                By empowering the person who has to enact the process,
                you enable the possibility of achieving the ideal process.
                Of course, there's no guarantee that it will happen, but
                take any other approach and you can guarantee that it won't.

                Starting from this point, we can consider what needs to happen
                to make it more likely that the ideal process will be enacted,
                and less likely that a bad process will be enacted.

                Paul Oldfield

                ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                www.aptprocess.com

                any opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of
                Mentors of Cally or the Appropriate Process Movement
                ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
              • Deb
                ... Wouldn t the truth include: - the value (competitive advantage?) to the business of early delivery of the features with the highest return, - increased
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 7, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, PaulOldfield1@c... wrote:
                  >
                  > >> (Alistair)
                  > >> In theory, a perfectly run sequential process should be
                  > >> less expensive than an perfectly run agile project, so
                  > >> don't go to the theory. In the same theory, agile projects
                  > >> are shorter. Which is more important to you?
                  >
                  > > (Boris)
                  > > You mean the alternative, when I want to convince someone
                  > > who will look at the money aspect, is to lie to him/her?
                  > > I can't do that.
                  >
                  > Tell the truth if the question is asked...
                  >

                  Wouldn't "the truth" include:

                  - the value (competitive advantage?) to the business of early
                  delivery of the features with the highest return,

                  - increased quality due to customer involvement,*

                  - where developers are permanent resources: better employee retention
                  (this definitely is quantifiable),

                  - predictable delivery dates,

                  - more accurate visibility of development progress,

                  - etc.

                  We need to develop concise and convincing ways to convey these
                  benefits to the people making the decisions. Does it necessarily need
                  to be in dollars? For those experienced with development, they may
                  simply need a reminder of what they know is true... but somewhere
                  someone not familiar with how development happens will want more...

                  It's a puzzle I'm working on now...
                  :-)
                  deb

                  * In "Managing Software for Growth without Fear, Control, and the
                  Manufacturing Mindset", Roy Miller sums it up in the
                  introduction: "Growing software allows us to get the software we want
                  at the end... not what we thought we wanted when we started". I've
                  just started it, but it looks like a good read - has good reviews
                  from Agilists on Amazon, and is predictably panned by those set
                  against change :-)
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.