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Matrix Comparison Plan-Driven Agile Development

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  • Boris Gloger
    Hi, does anybody has a comparison table which states what financial benefits an agile development project has to a plan-driven project? I looking for something
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 3, 2003
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      Hi,

      does anybody has a comparison table which states what financial
      benefits an agile development project has to a plan-driven project?

      I looking for something that would satisfy a financial controller.

      Maybe this were the cost of project x and this were a similar project
      x done with agile pm.

      Thanks

      Boris Gloger

      Vienna, Austria
      +43 699 1699 4977
    • Marco Dorantes Martinez
      How about this Economics of XP http://www.xp123.com/xplor/xp0009b/index.shtml Make More Money Improve Our Standard of Living Mary Poppendieck
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 3, 2003
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        How about this

        Economics of XP
        http://www.xp123.com/xplor/xp0009b/index.shtml

        Make More Money
        Improve Our Standard of Living
        Mary Poppendieck
        www.poppendieck.com
        http://xpday3.xpday.org/slides/MaryPoppendieckKeynote.pdf


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Boris Gloger [mailto:boris@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:23 AM
        To: agileprojectmanagement@yahoogroups.com;
        scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: heribert.ley@...
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Matrix Comparison Plan-Driven Agile
        Development

        Hi,

        does anybody has a comparison table which states what financial
        benefits an agile development project has to a plan-driven project?

        I looking for something that would satisfy a financial controller.

        Maybe this were the cost of project x and this were a similar project
        x done with agile pm.

        Thanks

        Boris Gloger

        Vienna, Austria
        +43 699 1699 4977



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      • acockburn@aol.com
        Ouch - this is a scary request In theory, a perfectly run sequential process should be less expensive than an perfectly run agile project, so don t go to the
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 3, 2003
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          Ouch - this is a scary request
          In theory, a perfectly run sequential process should be less expensive than an perfectly run agile project, so don't go to the theory. In the same theory, agile projects are shorter. Which is more important to you?
          However, as they say, 'In theory, practice is simple." It is only in practice that practice is not.
          In practice, a perfect of either is hard to come by. If agile comes out less expensive, it is because it recovers from unexpected surprises less expensively.
          Alistair
           
           
          In a message dated 12/3/2003 9:58:45 AM Mountain Standard Time, boris@... writes:


          does anybody has a comparison table which states what financial
          benefits an agile development project has to a plan-driven project?

          I looking for something that would satisfy a financial controller.

          Maybe this were the cost of project x and this were a similar project 
          x done with agile pm.

          Thanks

          Boris Gloger
           
          ==============================================
          Alistair Cockburn
          President, Humans and Technology

          http://alistair.cockburn.us alistair.cockburn@...
          1814 E. Fort Douglas Circle, Salt Lake City, UT 84103
          Phone: 801.582-3162            Fax: 775.416.6457

          Author of
          "Surviving Object-Oriented Projects" (1998)
          "Writing Effective Use Cases" (Jolt Productivity Award 2001)
          "Agile Software Development" (Jolt Productivity Award 2002)

          "La perfection est atteinte non quand il ne reste rien a ajouter,
          mais quand il ne reste rien a enlever." (Saint-Exupery)
          ==============================================
        • Boris Gloger
          Great answer, and you got exactly my initial reaction, when I was asked this question, that I wanted to rephrase in my bad english. But on the other side, this
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 3, 2003
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            Great answer, and you got exactly my initial reaction, when I was asked
            this question, that I wanted to rephrase in my bad english.

            But on the other side, this answer is not really helpful if you want to
            convince someone who will look at the money aspects of project, right?

            Boris


            On Wednesday, Dec 3, 2003, at 18:30 Europe/Vienna, acockburn@...
            wrote:

            > Ouch - this is a scary request
            > In theory, a perfectly run sequential process should be less expensive
            > than an perfectly run agile project, so don't go to the theory. In the
            > same theory, agile projects are shorter. Which is more important to
            > you?
            > However, as they say, 'In theory, practice is simple." It is only in
            > practice that practice is not.
            > In practice, a perfect of either is hard to come by. If agile comes
            > out less expensive, it is because it recovers from unexpected
            > surprises less expensively.
            > Alistair
            >  
            >  
            > In a message dated 12/3/2003 9:58:45 AM Mountain Standard Time,
            > boris@... writes:
            >
            >
            >
            > does anybody has a comparison table which states what financial
            > benefits an agile development project has to a plan-driven project?
            >
            > I looking for something that would satisfy a financial controller.
            >
            > Maybe this were the cost of project x and this were a similar project 
            > x done with agile pm.
            >
            > Thanks
            >
            > Boris Gloger
            >
            >
            >  
            > ==============================================
            > Alistair Cockburn
            > President, Humans and Technology
            >
            > http://alistair.cockburn.us alistair.cockburn@...
            > 1814 E. Fort Douglas Circle, Salt Lake City, UT 84103
            > Phone: 801.582-3162            Fax: 775.416.6457
            >
            > Author of
            > "Surviving Object-Oriented Projects" (1998)
            > "Writing Effective Use Cases" (Jolt Productivity Award 2001)
            > "Agile Software Development" (Jolt Productivity Award 2002)
            >
            > "La perfection est atteinte non quand il ne reste rien a ajouter,
            > mais quand il ne reste rien a enlever." (Saint-Exupery)
            > ==============================================
            >
            <image.tiff>
            >
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            Boris Gloger

            Vienna, Austria
            +43 699 1699 4977
          • Steven Gordon
            Lowering risk exposure is like taking out insurance. You just have to show him that this insurance is a good deal. If this argument does not work, ask the
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 3, 2003
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              Lowering risk exposure is like taking out insurance.  You just have to show him that this insurance is a good deal.  If this argument does not work, ask the financial controller why he bothers to pay for home owner's insurance when it clearly raised the cost of owning his home this year (assuming he made no claims on his home owner's insurance this year)?
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Boris Gloger [mailto:boris@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:47 AM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: heribert.ley@...
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Matrix Comparison Plan-Driven Agile Development

              Great answer, and you got exactly my initial reaction, when I was asked this question, that I wanted to rephrase in my bad english.

              But on the other side, this answer is not really helpful if you want to convince someone who will look at the money aspects of project, right?

              Boris


              On Wednesday, Dec 3, 2003, at 18:30 Europe/Vienna, acockburn@... wrote:

              Ouch - this is a scary request
              In theory, a perfectly run sequential process should be less expensive than an perfectly run agile project, so don't go to the theory. In the same theory, agile projects are shorter. Which is more important to you?
              However, as they say, 'In theory, practice is simple." It is only in practice that practice is not.
              In practice, a perfect of either is hard to come by. If agile comes out less expensive, it is because it recovers from unexpected surprises less expensively.
              Alistair
              In a message dated 12/3/2003 9:58:45 AM Mountain Standard Time, boris@... writes:



              does anybody has a comparison table which states what financial
              benefits an agile development project has to a plan-driven project?

              I looking for something that would satisfy a financial controller.

              Maybe this were the cost of project x and this were a similar project 
              x done with agile pm.

              Thanks

              Boris Gloger


              ==============================================
              Alistair Cockburn
              President, Humans and Technology

              http://alistair.cockburn.us alistair.cockburn@...
              1814 E. Fort Douglas Circle, Salt Lake City, UT 84103
              Phone: 801.582-3162            Fax: 775.416.6457

              Author of
              "Surviving Object-Oriented Projects" (1998)
              "Writing Effective Use Cases" (Jolt Productivity Award 2001)
              "Agile Software Development" (Jolt Productivity Award 2002)

              "La perfection est atteinte non quand il ne reste rien a ajouter,
              mais quand il ne reste rien a enlever." (Saint-Exupery)
              ==============================================

              <image.tiff>


              To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              Boris Gloger

              Vienna, Austria
              +43 699 1699 4977
            • magarrigue
              Ok, you can have a look at: http://www.favaro.net/publications/Extreme_Prog.pdf “The most vital quality a soldier can possess is self-confidence” (George
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 3, 2003
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                Ok, you can have a look at:

                 

                http://www.favaro.net/publications/Extreme_Prog.pdf

                 

                “The most vital quality a soldier can possess is self-confidence” (George S. Patton).

                ;)

                 

                Marc-Antoine GARRIGUE

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Boris Gloger [mailto:boris@...]
                Sent: mercredi 3 décembre 2003 18:47
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Cc: heribert.ley@...
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Matrix Comparison Plan-Driven Agile Development

                 

                Great answer, and you got exactly my initial reaction, when I was asked this question, that I wanted to rephrase in my bad english.

                But on the other side, this answer is not really helpful if you want to convince someone who will look at the money aspects of project, right?

                Boris


                On Wednesday, Dec 3, 2003, at 18:30 Europe/Vienna, acockburn@... wrote:

                Ouch - this is a scary request
                In theory, a perfectly run sequential process should be less expensive than an perfectly run agile project, so don't go to the theory. In the same theory, agile projects are shorter. Which is more important to you?
                However, as they say, 'In theory, practice is simple." It is only in practice that practice is not.
                In practice, a perfect of either is hard to come by. If agile comes out less expensive, it is because it recovers from unexpected surprises less expensively.
                Alistair
                 
                 
                In a message dated 12/3/2003 9:58:45 AM Mountain Standard Time, boris@... writes:



                does anybody has a comparison table which states what financial
                benefits an agile development project has to a plan-driven project?

                I looking for something that would satisfy a financial controller.

                Maybe this were the cost of project x and this were a similar project 
                x done with agile pm.

                Thanks

                Boris Gloger


                 
                ==============================================
                Alistair Cockburn
                President, Humans and Technology

                http://alistair.cockburn.us alistair.cockburn@...
                1814 E. Fort Douglas Circle, Salt Lake City, UT 84103
                Phone: 801.582-3162            Fax: 775.416.6457

                Author of
                "Surviving Object-Oriented Projects" (1998)
                "Writing Effective Use Cases" (Jolt Productivity Award 2001)
                "Agile Software Development" (Jolt Productivity Award 2002)

                "La perfection est atteinte non quand il ne reste rien a ajouter,
                mais quand il ne reste rien a enlever." (Saint-Exupery)
                ==============================================

                <image.tiff>



                To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .

                Boris Gloger

                Vienna, Austria
                +43 699 1699 4977

              • Ron Jeffries
                ... I think that if money people are trying to assess what approach programmers should take to their work, they have been asked the wrong question. Ron
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 3, 2003
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                  On Wednesday, December 3, 2003, at 12:46:36 PM, Boris Gloger wrote:

                  > But on the other side, this answer is not really helpful if you want to
                  > convince someone who will look at the money aspects of project, right?

                  I think that if money people are trying to assess what approach programmers
                  should take to their work, they have been asked the wrong question.

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  You have to either laugh or cry. -- Bill Rogers
                • J. B. Rainsberger
                  ... I would think that Agile as Risk Management would appeal to that person. A sequential project costs $1M to $4M. The same Agile project costs $1.5M to
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 3, 2003
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                    Boris Gloger wrote:

                    > Great answer, and you got exactly my initial reaction, when I was asked
                    > this question, that I wanted to rephrase in my bad english.
                    >
                    > But on the other side, this answer is not really helpful if you want to
                    > convince someone who will look at the money aspects of project, right?

                    I would think that Agile as Risk Management would appeal to that person.

                    "A sequential project costs $1M to $4M. The same Agile project costs
                    $1.5M to $2.5M. How much do you want to bet that /this/ project done
                    sequential will cost less than $1.5M?"
                    --
                    J. B. Rainsberger,
                    Diaspar Software Services
                    http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
                    Let's write software that people understand
                  • acockburn@aol.com
                    ... at the money aspect, is to lie to him/her? I can t do that. If agile is not less expensive, then don t advertise it as less expensive. That can only put
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 3, 2003
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                      ---> You mean the alternative, when I want to convince someone who will look at the money aspect, is to lie to him/her?  I can't do that.
                       
                      If agile is not less expensive, then don't advertise it as less expensive. That can only put you into a bad position for later, when they count the money.
                       
                      It may be, however, that the money argument runs as follows: get it out sooner using agile approaches, and start collecting revenue earlier. Then run the numbers for that scenario.
                       
                      Or, get half of it out very much earlier and starting collecting partial revenue much earlier. The numbers for that should look much more attractive.   But both of these depend on the marketability of early deliveries.
                       
                      Personally, I advocate agile approaches as lowering the probability of failure (a noticeable but generally unquantified cost in itself), and as being more efficient (here's your lower cost) because we dump a bunch of the costly bureaucratic stuff other projects are made to do.
                       
                      There's nothing in the agile manifesto that says "dump the costly bureaucratic stuff." This permits me to talk to CMM 3 / 4 / 5 agencies and say, "keep all the bureaucratic stuff, just move the people closer together, deliver a working increment every month, hold reflection workshops and attend to morale. You'll notice already you're better off."  However, most of us agile types, when given control of a project, will instantly dump the costly bureaucratic stuff.
                       
                      I don't know how to assuage any financial
                       
                       
                      In a message dated 12/3/2003 12:24:36 PM Mountain Standard Time, magarrigue@... writes:


                      But on the other side, this answer is not really helpful if you want to convince someone who will look at the money aspects of project, right?

                      Boris


                      On Wednesday, Dec 3, 2003, at 18:30 Europe/Vienna, acockburn@... wrote:

                      Ouch - this is a scary request
                      In theory, a perfectly run sequential process should be less expensive than an perfectly run agile project, so don't go to the theory. In the same theory, agile projects are shorter. Which is more important to you?
                      However, as they say, 'In theory, practice is simple." It is only in practice that practice is not.
                      In practice, a perfect of either is hard to come by. If agile comes out less expensive, it is because it recovers from unexpected surprises less expensively.

                       
                      ==============================================
                      Alistair Cockburn
                      President, Humans and Technology

                      http://alistair.cockburn.us alistair.cockburn@...
                      1814 E. Fort Douglas Circle, Salt Lake City, UT 84103
                      Phone: 801.582-3162            Fax: 775.416.6457

                      Author of
                      "Surviving Object-Oriented Projects" (1998)
                      "Writing Effective Use Cases" (Jolt Productivity Award 2001)
                      "Agile Software Development" (Jolt Productivity Award 2002)

                      "La perfection est atteinte non quand il ne reste rien a ajouter,
                      mais quand il ne reste rien a enlever." (Saint-Exupery)
                      ==============================================
                    • PaulOldfield1@compuserve.com
                      ... Tell the truth if the question is asked... There is a theoretical ideal process for any project. If it were possible to know this in advance, then using it
                      Message 10 of 11 , Dec 4, 2003
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                        >> (Alistair)
                        >> In theory, a perfectly run sequential process should be
                        >> less expensive than an perfectly run agile project, so
                        >> don't go to the theory. In the same theory, agile projects
                        >> are shorter. Which is more important to you?

                        > (Boris)
                        > You mean the alternative, when I want to convince someone
                        > who will look at the money aspect, is to lie to him/her?
                        > I can't do that.

                        Tell the truth if the question is asked...

                        There is a theoretical ideal process for any project.
                        If it were possible to know this in advance, then using it
                        from the start would be cheaper.
                        The person that has the best information to make the decision
                        on what is ideal is the person who is just about to enact an
                        element of the process.
                        Conclusion - the theoretical ideal process cannot be known
                        in advance, it becomes revealed just before it is enacted.

                        By empowering the person who has to enact the process,
                        you enable the possibility of achieving the ideal process.
                        Of course, there's no guarantee that it will happen, but
                        take any other approach and you can guarantee that it won't.

                        Starting from this point, we can consider what needs to happen
                        to make it more likely that the ideal process will be enacted,
                        and less likely that a bad process will be enacted.

                        Paul Oldfield

                        ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                        www.aptprocess.com

                        any opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of
                        Mentors of Cally or the Appropriate Process Movement
                        ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                      • Deb
                        ... Wouldn t the truth include: - the value (competitive advantage?) to the business of early delivery of the features with the highest return, - increased
                        Message 11 of 11 , Dec 7, 2003
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                          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, PaulOldfield1@c... wrote:
                          >
                          > >> (Alistair)
                          > >> In theory, a perfectly run sequential process should be
                          > >> less expensive than an perfectly run agile project, so
                          > >> don't go to the theory. In the same theory, agile projects
                          > >> are shorter. Which is more important to you?
                          >
                          > > (Boris)
                          > > You mean the alternative, when I want to convince someone
                          > > who will look at the money aspect, is to lie to him/her?
                          > > I can't do that.
                          >
                          > Tell the truth if the question is asked...
                          >

                          Wouldn't "the truth" include:

                          - the value (competitive advantage?) to the business of early
                          delivery of the features with the highest return,

                          - increased quality due to customer involvement,*

                          - where developers are permanent resources: better employee retention
                          (this definitely is quantifiable),

                          - predictable delivery dates,

                          - more accurate visibility of development progress,

                          - etc.

                          We need to develop concise and convincing ways to convey these
                          benefits to the people making the decisions. Does it necessarily need
                          to be in dollars? For those experienced with development, they may
                          simply need a reminder of what they know is true... but somewhere
                          someone not familiar with how development happens will want more...

                          It's a puzzle I'm working on now...
                          :-)
                          deb

                          * In "Managing Software for Growth without Fear, Control, and the
                          Manufacturing Mindset", Roy Miller sums it up in the
                          introduction: "Growing software allows us to get the software we want
                          at the end... not what we thought we wanted when we started". I've
                          just started it, but it looks like a good read - has good reviews
                          from Agilists on Amazon, and is predictably panned by those set
                          against change :-)
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