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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Origins of Scrum

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  • Michael Spayd
    Hi Alan, I very much appreciate your tying of Lean principles to Scrum. I agree, it is not necessary, but it IS useful. I think articulating a clear set of
    Message 1 of 39 , Jul 3, 2007
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      Hi Alan,
       
      I very much appreciate your tying of Lean principles to Scrum. I agree, it is not necessary, but it IS useful. I think articulating a clear set of principles behind Scrum would be a valuable exercise for the Scrum community.
       
      Kent Beck (and perhaps Ron Jefferies) very brilliantly articulated XP as an interlocking set of Values underlying Principles underlying Practices. In any modification you make to an XP practice you must go back to the underlying principle(s) as well as your experience (read: inspect and adapt) to decide what to do. You don't check with a central process authority, but you do check with the "higher authority" of the principles (and values). At least that is what I was taught (or perhaps figured out from reading Alistair) and what I teach my teams.
       
      So, Alan, soldier on!
       
      Michael
       
      On 7/3/07, Alan Shalloway <alshall@...> wrote:

      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "David H." <dmalloc@...>
      wrote:
      >

      > > > <snip>
      > > > As much as I respect Mary and Tom and yourself, Alan, I find
      it a bit
      > > > odd that we keep repeating something akin to a comparison
      which is
      > > > based on three words,
      > > > Muda (no value-added), Mura (uneveness) and Muri (overburden).
      > >
      > >
      > > In the case of Lean principles, I believe most Scrum
      practitioners are
      > > not familiar with how Lean can help them - so I am not sure I am
      > > repeating things at all.
      > >
      > I would argue they need not be aware of them. Simply because those
      > principles are not necessarily something that is exclusive to
      Lean. If
      > you properly apply XP, DSDM, Crystal, FDD, Scrum and so on, you
      will
      > touch on all of the areas which are described as being part of a
      Lean
      > process in the three areas of eliminating waste.
      >
      > I am not disputing that it is smart to make people aware of the
      fact
      > that there are other, interesting approaches, what I am trying to
      say,
      > is that I find it odd we would tie it down to Lean.
      >
      > I would argue that most modern literature on learning would
      reaffirm
      > that we learn best by doing. So practices which incorporate
      principles
      > should have a better learning effect.
      >
      > -d

      There are Lean concepts that are in "XP, DSDM, Crystal, FDD, Scrum"
      that can be deduced from them but aren't explicitly stated in them.
      That's why I talk about them re Lean. It isn't a question of do you
      have to tie it to Lean it's a question of is it useful to do so. I
      think it is.

      In any event, I do believe Lean has a more enterprise, product,
      business focus than these do. Not that they don't work at the
      enterprise, product or business level.

      People may be mis-interpreting what I am saying. I am not saying
      you need Lean for any of these. You don't. Scrum stands well
      enough on its own when you know how to use it. I used Scrum for
      years without truly understanding the Lean-Scrum tie in. But I have
      been doing some form of agile development for 20+ years (admittedly
      on and off until I had some exposure to Kent Beck and Ken Schwaber).

      But once I saw the tie in I saw that Lean was a great way to help
      people transition to Scrum. Lean has a rich history so there are
      many things to pull from. That's all I am (or have been) saying.

      Alan Shalloway
      CEO, Net Objectives




      --
      Michael K. Spayd
      Cogility Consulting Solutions, LLC
      "Business Mind, Social Heart"
      michael.spayd@...
      720.300.5286

      "Leading Agile Enterprise Transformations"
    • Michael Spayd
      Hi Alan, On 7/5/07, Alan Shalloway wrote: I have made several posts illustrating these connections. Ironically, there has been more
      Message 39 of 39 , Jul 5, 2007
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        Hi Alan,

        On 7/5/07, Alan Shalloway <alshall@...> wrote:
         
        I have made several posts illustrating these connections.
        Ironically, there has been more discussion on my restatement of
        _Jeff's_ assertion (as if _I_ had come up with it when I have
        already said isn't that important anyway) than there has with
        whether my comments about using Lean in the way I do is correct or
        incorrect. I am certainly interested in people's opinions if they
        think my posts are useful, useless, questionable, unclear, concise,
        … (whatever).
         
        Thanks for clarifying that, Alan, it was a bit annoying that others seemed not to understand your intent. I can't comment on your use of Lean except to say it makes good sense to me (I am knowledeable, but can't claim to be an expert in Lean). I would like to emphasize another point of yours in the Agile methodology realm where I can claim expertise (or at least old dog status). That is, you first distinguished principles from practices, then said something to the effect that Scrum does not have clearly articulated principles (unlike XP or Crystal, for instance), even if the practices are quite clear.
         
        For me, this was a very useful observation. It is a big gap, IMO. Dave Barrett (above) did what I take to be a good first draft at articulating some principles, but these have clearly not been validated by the Scrum community. I believe, as Dave indicated, they the underlying set of Scrum principles are few and simple, but unarticulated nevertheles.
         
        Does that make sense to others? or do the rest of you just believe  that that would be helpful? Again, the principles in an Agile methodology do not change (though they might slowly evolve), whereas the practices are adapted by a self-organizing team and a competent coach according to experience and circumstance (and using the applications of the relevant principle).

        Comments?
         
        Michael

        --
        Michael K. Spayd
        Cogility Consulting Solutions, LLC
        "Business Mind, Social Heart"
        michael.spayd@...
        720.300.5286

        "Leading Agile Enterprise Transformations"
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