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RE: [SPAM] Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum training

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  • Neeraj Deginal
    Both are different role with different responsibilities. I would advise playing only one role for one project. If you plan to play a role of PO then it would
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007

      Both are different role with different responsibilities. I would advise playing only one role for one project. If you plan to play a role of PO then it would be advisable for PO training, as lot of decision making responsibilities lies with PO.

       

      Regards,

      Neeraj

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Debois
      Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:18 PM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [SPAM] Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum training
      Importance: Low

       

      Hi Roman, I'm not talking from the trainer perspective. I was thinking from the trainee perspective.
      Would it make sense to follow the PO training if you already followed the SM training?



      Roman Pichler wrote:

      Hi Patrick,

      You can either schedule a third day that covers product owner topics
      such as product backlog management and user stories or you can
      schedule a separate product owner class. Even though my personal
      preference as a trainer and coach is the second option, it very much
      depends on the situation of your client. If you have only a few
      product owners that need to be trained, I'd go for the second option.

      Best regards,
      Roman

      --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Patrick Debois
      <Patrick.Debois@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer
      side
      > managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing it
      > together for a customer.
      >
      > I've scheduled a CSM training, does it make sense to follow both
      > trainings? Or is most of the information 'overlapping' .
      >
      >
      > srinivas chillara wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@ ...
      > > <mailto:arne. ahlander% 40yahoo.com> > wrote:
      > >
      > > > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
      > > > out well
      > > > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
      > > > but good can
      > > > always get better.
      > > > arne
      > >
      > > Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
      > > the project shot to pieces.
      > >
      > > Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click
      here
      > > http://in.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php
      > > <http://in.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php>
      > >
      > >
      >

       

    • Roman Pichler
      Hi Patrick, Judging from my experience, most product owners need additional knowledge and skills to do their job effectively. The CSM class primarily focuses
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
        Hi Patrick,

        Judging from my experience, most product owners need additional
        knowledge and skills to do their job effectively. The CSM class
        primarily focuses on the skills necessary for ScrumMasters. I have
        trained product owners using dedicated training classes, workshops
        and boot camps. I also frequently recommended self-study, e.g., by
        reading Mike Cohn's excellent book on user stories. It depends on
        what is most helpful for the people involved and how much exposure
        the individuals have had to Scrum.

        Best regards,
        Roman

        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Debois
        <Patrick.Debois@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Roman, I'm not talking from the trainer perspective. I was
        thinking
        > from the trainee perspective.
        > Would it make sense to follow the PO training if you already
        followed
        > the SM training?
        >
        >
        >
        > Roman Pichler wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Patrick,
        > >
        > > You can either schedule a third day that covers product owner
        topics
        > > such as product backlog management and user stories or you can
        > > schedule a separate product owner class. Even though my personal
        > > preference as a trainer and coach is the second option, it very
        much
        > > depends on the situation of your client. If you have only a few
        > > product owners that need to be trained, I'd go for the second
        option.
        > >
        > > Best regards,
        > > Roman
        > >
        > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        > > <mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com>, Patrick Debois
        > > <Patrick.Debois@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer
        > > side
        > > > managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing
        it
        > > > together for a customer.
        > > >
        > > > I've scheduled a CSM training, does it make sense to follow both
        > > > trainings? Or is most of the information 'overlapping'.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > srinivas chillara wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@
        > > > > <mailto:arne.ahlander%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
        > > > > > out well
        > > > > > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
        > > > > > but good can
        > > > > > always get better.
        > > > > > arne
        > > > >
        > > > > Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
        > > > > the project shot to pieces.
        > > > >
        > > > > Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger.
        Click
        > > here
        > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
        > > <http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php>
        > > > > <http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
        > > <http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php>>
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        >
      • Mark Levison
        ... To Roman s excellent advice I would suggest start with your CSM, Mike s book on User Stories, Mike s presentation: Becoming an Effective Product Owner
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
          On 6/1/07, Roman Pichler <roman.pichler@...> wrote:
          Hi Patrick,

          Judging from my experience, most product owners need additional
          knowledge and skills to do their job effectively. The CSM class
          primarily focuses on the skills necessary for ScrumMasters. I have
          trained product owners using dedicated training classes, workshops
          and boot camps. I also frequently recommended self-study, e.g., by
          reading Mike Cohn's excellent book on user stories. It depends on
          what is most helpful for the people involved and how much exposure
          the individuals have had to Scrum.

          To Roman's excellent advice I would suggest start with your CSM, Mike's book on User Stories, Mike's presentation: "Becoming an Effective Product Owner " (http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/presentation_view/47) from the Nov '06 Scrum Gathering.

          But as with anything else in Scrum I would use the inspect and adapt process. So take your course, do some reading and check where you're at. If you need more help - we will still be here to answer questions.

          Cheers
          Mark
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
          Most Popular posts:
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          http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2007/02/aperture_vs_lig.html
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          Getting Things Done!!! Can't Keep Track of all the tasks you have to do? Need a better Tool to Implement GTD? http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/12/getting_things_.html
        • Alan Shalloway
          ... search... ... and ... offer ... that ... whilst ... The need for the product owner varies a lot depending upon whether the software organization is a
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Hundermark"
            <peterh@...> wrote:
            >
            > Forgive me if I've missed a previous thread - I did tried to
            search...
            >
            > Why are there so few Product Owner courses? It seems Ken Schwaber
            and
            > Mike Cohn offer 2 or 3 CPO courses per year. A few other CST's
            offer
            > product owner training. Compare this with about 40 CST's offering
            > dozens (hundreds?) of CSM courses annually.
            >
            > It strkes me as a little odd that there is an established industry
            that
            > churns out thousands of CSM's (many of whom never practise),
            whilst
            > PO's are largely ignored.
            >
            > Is there something I don't 'get'?
            >
            > Peter
            >

            The need for the product owner varies a lot depending upon whether
            the software organization is a product type organization (creating
            something sold) or an IT organization (creating something used
            internally). Many software organizations actually have the role of
            the product owner reasonably understood, but have no clue as to how
            to really organize a product backlog or how to break stories up into
            right sizes.

            We offer a course called "Agile Estimation and Analysis For
            Developers and Product Owners" see
            (http://www.netobjectives.com/courses/agile-estimation-analysis-
            developer-product-owner) which is a team based approach to analysis
            in a Scrum environment. We have found a team based approach to
            analysis to be very useful in the same way our team based approach
            to teaching Scrum is (Implementing Scrum For Your Team). In other
            words, instead of focusing on how to train _a_ project
            leader/facilitator (the Scrum Master) or _a_ voice of the customer
            (the Product Owner) we find a team based approach to training works
            much better.

            How to fill the role of the product owner itself when it is not
            present is typically very different for different organizations. In
            many of these cases, once the problem is understood, the team can
            usually figure out how to best fill the role better than an outsider.

            I find it ironic that a team based approach focuses so much on two
            (admittedly key) roles.

            Alan Shalloway
            CEO, Net Objectives
            www.netobjectives.com
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