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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum training

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  • Patrick Debois
    As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer side managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing it together for a customer.
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
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      As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer side managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing it together for a customer.

      I've scheduled a CSM training, does it make sense to follow both trainings? Or is most of the information 'overlapping'.


      srinivas chillara wrote:


      --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@ yahoo.com> wrote:

      > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
      > out well
      > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
      > but good can
      > always get better.
      > arne

      Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
      the project shot to pieces.

      Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click here http://in.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php


    • Roman Pichler
      Hi Patrick, You can either schedule a third day that covers product owner topics such as product backlog management and user stories or you can schedule a
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
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        Hi Patrick,

        You can either schedule a third day that covers product owner topics
        such as product backlog management and user stories or you can
        schedule a separate product owner class. Even though my personal
        preference as a trainer and coach is the second option, it very much
        depends on the situation of your client. If you have only a few
        product owners that need to be trained, I'd go for the second option.

        Best regards,
        Roman

        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Debois
        <Patrick.Debois@...> wrote:
        >
        > As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer
        side
        > managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing it
        > together for a customer.
        >
        > I've scheduled a CSM training, does it make sense to follow both
        > trainings? Or is most of the information 'overlapping'.
        >
        >
        > srinivas chillara wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@...
        > > <mailto:arne.ahlander%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
        > >
        > > > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
        > > > out well
        > > > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
        > > > but good can
        > > > always get better.
        > > > arne
        > >
        > > Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
        > > the project shot to pieces.
        > >
        > > Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click
        here
        > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
        > > <http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php>
        > >
        > >
        >
      • Patrick Debois
        Hi Roman, I m not talking from the trainer perspective. I was thinking from the trainee perspective. Would it make sense to follow the PO training if you
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
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          Hi Roman, I'm not talking from the trainer perspective. I was thinking from the trainee perspective.
          Would it make sense to follow the PO training if you already followed the SM training?



          Roman Pichler wrote:

          Hi Patrick,

          You can either schedule a third day that covers product owner topics
          such as product backlog management and user stories or you can
          schedule a separate product owner class. Even though my personal
          preference as a trainer and coach is the second option, it very much
          depends on the situation of your client. If you have only a few
          product owners that need to be trained, I'd go for the second option.

          Best regards,
          Roman

          --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Patrick Debois
          <Patrick.Debois@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer
          side
          > managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing it
          > together for a customer.
          >
          > I've scheduled a CSM training, does it make sense to follow both
          > trainings? Or is most of the information 'overlapping' .
          >
          >
          > srinivas chillara wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@ ...
          > > <mailto:arne. ahlander% 40yahoo.com> > wrote:
          > >
          > > > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
          > > > out well
          > > > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
          > > > but good can
          > > > always get better.
          > > > arne
          > >
          > > Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
          > > the project shot to pieces.
          > >
          > > Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click
          here
          > > http://in.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php
          > > <http://in.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php>
          > >
          > >
          >


        • Neeraj Deginal
          Both are different role with different responsibilities. I would advise playing only one role for one project. If you plan to play a role of PO then it would
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
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            Both are different role with different responsibilities. I would advise playing only one role for one project. If you plan to play a role of PO then it would be advisable for PO training, as lot of decision making responsibilities lies with PO.

             

            Regards,

            Neeraj

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Debois
            Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:18 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [SPAM] Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum training
            Importance: Low

             

            Hi Roman, I'm not talking from the trainer perspective. I was thinking from the trainee perspective.
            Would it make sense to follow the PO training if you already followed the SM training?



            Roman Pichler wrote:

            Hi Patrick,

            You can either schedule a third day that covers product owner topics
            such as product backlog management and user stories or you can
            schedule a separate product owner class. Even though my personal
            preference as a trainer and coach is the second option, it very much
            depends on the situation of your client. If you have only a few
            product owners that need to be trained, I'd go for the second option.

            Best regards,
            Roman

            --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Patrick Debois
            <Patrick.Debois@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer
            side
            > managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing it
            > together for a customer.
            >
            > I've scheduled a CSM training, does it make sense to follow both
            > trainings? Or is most of the information 'overlapping' .
            >
            >
            > srinivas chillara wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@ ...
            > > <mailto:arne. ahlander% 40yahoo.com> > wrote:
            > >
            > > > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
            > > > out well
            > > > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
            > > > but good can
            > > > always get better.
            > > > arne
            > >
            > > Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
            > > the project shot to pieces.
            > >
            > > Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click
            here
            > > http://in.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php
            > > <http://in.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php>
            > >
            > >
            >

             

          • Roman Pichler
            Hi Patrick, Judging from my experience, most product owners need additional knowledge and skills to do their job effectively. The CSM class primarily focuses
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
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              Hi Patrick,

              Judging from my experience, most product owners need additional
              knowledge and skills to do their job effectively. The CSM class
              primarily focuses on the skills necessary for ScrumMasters. I have
              trained product owners using dedicated training classes, workshops
              and boot camps. I also frequently recommended self-study, e.g., by
              reading Mike Cohn's excellent book on user stories. It depends on
              what is most helpful for the people involved and how much exposure
              the individuals have had to Scrum.

              Best regards,
              Roman

              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Debois
              <Patrick.Debois@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Roman, I'm not talking from the trainer perspective. I was
              thinking
              > from the trainee perspective.
              > Would it make sense to follow the PO training if you already
              followed
              > the SM training?
              >
              >
              >
              > Roman Pichler wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Patrick,
              > >
              > > You can either schedule a third day that covers product owner
              topics
              > > such as product backlog management and user stories or you can
              > > schedule a separate product owner class. Even though my personal
              > > preference as a trainer and coach is the second option, it very
              much
              > > depends on the situation of your client. If you have only a few
              > > product owners that need to be trained, I'd go for the second
              option.
              > >
              > > Best regards,
              > > Roman
              > >
              > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              > > <mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com>, Patrick Debois
              > > <Patrick.Debois@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer
              > > side
              > > > managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing
              it
              > > > together for a customer.
              > > >
              > > > I've scheduled a CSM training, does it make sense to follow both
              > > > trainings? Or is most of the information 'overlapping'.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > srinivas chillara wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@
              > > > > <mailto:arne.ahlander%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
              > > > > > out well
              > > > > > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
              > > > > > but good can
              > > > > > always get better.
              > > > > > arne
              > > > >
              > > > > Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
              > > > > the project shot to pieces.
              > > > >
              > > > > Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger.
              Click
              > > here
              > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
              > > <http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php>
              > > > > <http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
              > > <http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php>>
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Mark Levison
              ... To Roman s excellent advice I would suggest start with your CSM, Mike s book on User Stories, Mike s presentation: Becoming an Effective Product Owner
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
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                On 6/1/07, Roman Pichler <roman.pichler@...> wrote:
                Hi Patrick,

                Judging from my experience, most product owners need additional
                knowledge and skills to do their job effectively. The CSM class
                primarily focuses on the skills necessary for ScrumMasters. I have
                trained product owners using dedicated training classes, workshops
                and boot camps. I also frequently recommended self-study, e.g., by
                reading Mike Cohn's excellent book on user stories. It depends on
                what is most helpful for the people involved and how much exposure
                the individuals have had to Scrum.

                To Roman's excellent advice I would suggest start with your CSM, Mike's book on User Stories, Mike's presentation: "Becoming an Effective Product Owner " (http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/presentation_view/47) from the Nov '06 Scrum Gathering.

                But as with anything else in Scrum I would use the inspect and adapt process. So take your course, do some reading and check where you're at. If you need more help - we will still be here to answer questions.

                Cheers
                Mark
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                Most Popular posts:
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                http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2007/02/aperture_vs_lig.html
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              • Alan Shalloway
                ... search... ... and ... offer ... that ... whilst ... The need for the product owner varies a lot depending upon whether the software organization is a
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
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                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Hundermark"
                  <peterh@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Forgive me if I've missed a previous thread - I did tried to
                  search...
                  >
                  > Why are there so few Product Owner courses? It seems Ken Schwaber
                  and
                  > Mike Cohn offer 2 or 3 CPO courses per year. A few other CST's
                  offer
                  > product owner training. Compare this with about 40 CST's offering
                  > dozens (hundreds?) of CSM courses annually.
                  >
                  > It strkes me as a little odd that there is an established industry
                  that
                  > churns out thousands of CSM's (many of whom never practise),
                  whilst
                  > PO's are largely ignored.
                  >
                  > Is there something I don't 'get'?
                  >
                  > Peter
                  >

                  The need for the product owner varies a lot depending upon whether
                  the software organization is a product type organization (creating
                  something sold) or an IT organization (creating something used
                  internally). Many software organizations actually have the role of
                  the product owner reasonably understood, but have no clue as to how
                  to really organize a product backlog or how to break stories up into
                  right sizes.

                  We offer a course called "Agile Estimation and Analysis For
                  Developers and Product Owners" see
                  (http://www.netobjectives.com/courses/agile-estimation-analysis-
                  developer-product-owner) which is a team based approach to analysis
                  in a Scrum environment. We have found a team based approach to
                  analysis to be very useful in the same way our team based approach
                  to teaching Scrum is (Implementing Scrum For Your Team). In other
                  words, instead of focusing on how to train _a_ project
                  leader/facilitator (the Scrum Master) or _a_ voice of the customer
                  (the Product Owner) we find a team based approach to training works
                  much better.

                  How to fill the role of the product owner itself when it is not
                  present is typically very different for different organizations. In
                  many of these cases, once the problem is understood, the team can
                  usually figure out how to best fill the role better than an outsider.

                  I find it ironic that a team based approach focuses so much on two
                  (admittedly key) roles.

                  Alan Shalloway
                  CEO, Net Objectives
                  www.netobjectives.com
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