Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum training

Expand Messages
  • srinivas chillara
    ... Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get the project shot to pieces. Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click here
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@...> wrote:

      > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
      > out well
      > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
      > but good can
      > always get better.
      > arne


      Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
      the project shot to pieces.




      Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click here http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
    • Patrick Debois
      As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer side managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing it together for a customer.
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer side managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing it together for a customer.

        I've scheduled a CSM training, does it make sense to follow both trainings? Or is most of the information 'overlapping'.


        srinivas chillara wrote:


        --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@ yahoo.com> wrote:

        > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
        > out well
        > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
        > but good can
        > always get better.
        > arne

        Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
        the project shot to pieces.

        Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click here http://in.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php


      • Roman Pichler
        Hi Patrick, You can either schedule a third day that covers product owner topics such as product backlog management and user stories or you can schedule a
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Patrick,

          You can either schedule a third day that covers product owner topics
          such as product backlog management and user stories or you can
          schedule a separate product owner class. Even though my personal
          preference as a trainer and coach is the second option, it very much
          depends on the situation of your client. If you have only a few
          product owners that need to be trained, I'd go for the second option.

          Best regards,
          Roman

          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Debois
          <Patrick.Debois@...> wrote:
          >
          > As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer
          side
          > managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing it
          > together for a customer.
          >
          > I've scheduled a CSM training, does it make sense to follow both
          > trainings? Or is most of the information 'overlapping'.
          >
          >
          > srinivas chillara wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@...
          > > <mailto:arne.ahlander%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
          > >
          > > > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
          > > > out well
          > > > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
          > > > but good can
          > > > always get better.
          > > > arne
          > >
          > > Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
          > > the project shot to pieces.
          > >
          > > Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click
          here
          > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
          > > <http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php>
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Patrick Debois
          Hi Roman, I m not talking from the trainer perspective. I was thinking from the trainee perspective. Would it make sense to follow the PO training if you
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Roman, I'm not talking from the trainer perspective. I was thinking from the trainee perspective.
            Would it make sense to follow the PO training if you already followed the SM training?



            Roman Pichler wrote:

            Hi Patrick,

            You can either schedule a third day that covers product owner topics
            such as product backlog management and user stories or you can
            schedule a separate product owner class. Even though my personal
            preference as a trainer and coach is the second option, it very much
            depends on the situation of your client. If you have only a few
            product owners that need to be trained, I'd go for the second option.

            Best regards,
            Roman

            --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Patrick Debois
            <Patrick.Debois@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer
            side
            > managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing it
            > together for a customer.
            >
            > I've scheduled a CSM training, does it make sense to follow both
            > trainings? Or is most of the information 'overlapping' .
            >
            >
            > srinivas chillara wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@ ...
            > > <mailto:arne. ahlander% 40yahoo.com> > wrote:
            > >
            > > > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
            > > > out well
            > > > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
            > > > but good can
            > > > always get better.
            > > > arne
            > >
            > > Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
            > > the project shot to pieces.
            > >
            > > Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click
            here
            > > http://in.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php
            > > <http://in.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php>
            > >
            > >
            >


          • Neeraj Deginal
            Both are different role with different responsibilities. I would advise playing only one role for one project. If you plan to play a role of PO then it would
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
            • 0 Attachment

              Both are different role with different responsibilities. I would advise playing only one role for one project. If you plan to play a role of PO then it would be advisable for PO training, as lot of decision making responsibilities lies with PO.

               

              Regards,

              Neeraj

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Debois
              Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:18 PM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [SPAM] Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum training
              Importance: Low

               

              Hi Roman, I'm not talking from the trainer perspective. I was thinking from the trainee perspective.
              Would it make sense to follow the PO training if you already followed the SM training?



              Roman Pichler wrote:

              Hi Patrick,

              You can either schedule a third day that covers product owner topics
              such as product backlog management and user stories or you can
              schedule a separate product owner class. Even though my personal
              preference as a trainer and coach is the second option, it very much
              depends on the situation of your client. If you have only a few
              product owners that need to be trained, I'd go for the second option.

              Best regards,
              Roman

              --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Patrick Debois
              <Patrick.Debois@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer
              side
              > managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing it
              > together for a customer.
              >
              > I've scheduled a CSM training, does it make sense to follow both
              > trainings? Or is most of the information 'overlapping' .
              >
              >
              > srinivas chillara wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@ ...
              > > <mailto:arne. ahlander% 40yahoo.com> > wrote:
              > >
              > > > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
              > > > out well
              > > > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
              > > > but good can
              > > > always get better.
              > > > arne
              > >
              > > Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
              > > the project shot to pieces.
              > >
              > > Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click
              here
              > > http://in.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php
              > > <http://in.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php>
              > >
              > >
              >

               

            • Roman Pichler
              Hi Patrick, Judging from my experience, most product owners need additional knowledge and skills to do their job effectively. The CSM class primarily focuses
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Patrick,

                Judging from my experience, most product owners need additional
                knowledge and skills to do their job effectively. The CSM class
                primarily focuses on the skills necessary for ScrumMasters. I have
                trained product owners using dedicated training classes, workshops
                and boot camps. I also frequently recommended self-study, e.g., by
                reading Mike Cohn's excellent book on user stories. It depends on
                what is most helpful for the people involved and how much exposure
                the individuals have had to Scrum.

                Best regards,
                Roman

                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Debois
                <Patrick.Debois@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Roman, I'm not talking from the trainer perspective. I was
                thinking
                > from the trainee perspective.
                > Would it make sense to follow the PO training if you already
                followed
                > the SM training?
                >
                >
                >
                > Roman Pichler wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Patrick,
                > >
                > > You can either schedule a third day that covers product owner
                topics
                > > such as product backlog management and user stories or you can
                > > schedule a separate product owner class. Even though my personal
                > > preference as a trainer and coach is the second option, it very
                much
                > > depends on the situation of your client. If you have only a few
                > > product owners that need to be trained, I'd go for the second
                option.
                > >
                > > Best regards,
                > > Roman
                > >
                > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                > > <mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com>, Patrick Debois
                > > <Patrick.Debois@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer
                > > side
                > > > managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing
                it
                > > > together for a customer.
                > > >
                > > > I've scheduled a CSM training, does it make sense to follow both
                > > > trainings? Or is most of the information 'overlapping'.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > srinivas chillara wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@
                > > > > <mailto:arne.ahlander%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
                > > > > > out well
                > > > > > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
                > > > > > but good can
                > > > > > always get better.
                > > > > > arne
                > > > >
                > > > > Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
                > > > > the project shot to pieces.
                > > > >
                > > > > Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger.
                Click
                > > here
                > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
                > > <http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php>
                > > > > <http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
                > > <http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php>>
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Mark Levison
                ... To Roman s excellent advice I would suggest start with your CSM, Mike s book on User Stories, Mike s presentation: Becoming an Effective Product Owner
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  On 6/1/07, Roman Pichler <roman.pichler@...> wrote:
                  Hi Patrick,

                  Judging from my experience, most product owners need additional
                  knowledge and skills to do their job effectively. The CSM class
                  primarily focuses on the skills necessary for ScrumMasters. I have
                  trained product owners using dedicated training classes, workshops
                  and boot camps. I also frequently recommended self-study, e.g., by
                  reading Mike Cohn's excellent book on user stories. It depends on
                  what is most helpful for the people involved and how much exposure
                  the individuals have had to Scrum.

                  To Roman's excellent advice I would suggest start with your CSM, Mike's book on User Stories, Mike's presentation: "Becoming an Effective Product Owner " (http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/presentation_view/47) from the Nov '06 Scrum Gathering.

                  But as with anything else in Scrum I would use the inspect and adapt process. So take your course, do some reading and check where you're at. If you need more help - we will still be here to answer questions.

                  Cheers
                  Mark
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                  Most Popular posts:
                  Aperture vs. Lightroom - best comparisons
                  http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2007/02/aperture_vs_lig.html
                  Scrum in a Nutshell or 5 minutes to learn Scrum http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/11/scrum_in_a_nuts.html
                  Getting Things Done!!! Can't Keep Track of all the tasks you have to do? Need a better Tool to Implement GTD? http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/12/getting_things_.html
                • Alan Shalloway
                  ... search... ... and ... offer ... that ... whilst ... The need for the product owner varies a lot depending upon whether the software organization is a
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Hundermark"
                    <peterh@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Forgive me if I've missed a previous thread - I did tried to
                    search...
                    >
                    > Why are there so few Product Owner courses? It seems Ken Schwaber
                    and
                    > Mike Cohn offer 2 or 3 CPO courses per year. A few other CST's
                    offer
                    > product owner training. Compare this with about 40 CST's offering
                    > dozens (hundreds?) of CSM courses annually.
                    >
                    > It strkes me as a little odd that there is an established industry
                    that
                    > churns out thousands of CSM's (many of whom never practise),
                    whilst
                    > PO's are largely ignored.
                    >
                    > Is there something I don't 'get'?
                    >
                    > Peter
                    >

                    The need for the product owner varies a lot depending upon whether
                    the software organization is a product type organization (creating
                    something sold) or an IT organization (creating something used
                    internally). Many software organizations actually have the role of
                    the product owner reasonably understood, but have no clue as to how
                    to really organize a product backlog or how to break stories up into
                    right sizes.

                    We offer a course called "Agile Estimation and Analysis For
                    Developers and Product Owners" see
                    (http://www.netobjectives.com/courses/agile-estimation-analysis-
                    developer-product-owner) which is a team based approach to analysis
                    in a Scrum environment. We have found a team based approach to
                    analysis to be very useful in the same way our team based approach
                    to teaching Scrum is (Implementing Scrum For Your Team). In other
                    words, instead of focusing on how to train _a_ project
                    leader/facilitator (the Scrum Master) or _a_ voice of the customer
                    (the Product Owner) we find a team based approach to training works
                    much better.

                    How to fill the role of the product owner itself when it is not
                    present is typically very different for different organizations. In
                    many of these cases, once the problem is understood, the team can
                    usually figure out how to best fill the role better than an outsider.

                    I find it ironic that a team based approach focuses so much on two
                    (admittedly key) roles.

                    Alan Shalloway
                    CEO, Net Objectives
                    www.netobjectives.com
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.