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Scrum training

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  • Peter Hundermark
    Forgive me if I ve missed a previous thread - I did tried to search... Why are there so few Product Owner courses? It seems Ken Schwaber and Mike Cohn offer 2
    Message 1 of 16 , May 28 6:31 AM
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      Forgive me if I've missed a previous thread - I did tried to search...

      Why are there so few Product Owner courses? It seems Ken Schwaber and
      Mike Cohn offer 2 or 3 CPO courses per year. A few other CST's offer
      product owner training. Compare this with about 40 CST's offering
      dozens (hundreds?) of CSM courses annually.

      It strkes me as a little odd that there is an established industry that
      churns out thousands of CSM's (many of whom never practise), whilst
      PO's are largely ignored.

      Is there something I don't 'get'?

      Peter
    • Ken Schwaber
      The demand for the Product Owner course has been low to date. We are investigating scaling up availability when the demand starts emerging, Ken Schwaber _____
      Message 2 of 16 , May 28 8:23 AM
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        The demand for the Product Owner course has been low to date. We are investigating scaling up availability when the demand starts emerging,

        Ken Schwaber

         


        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Peter Hundermark
        Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 9:32 AM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum training

         

        Forgive me if I've missed a previous thread - I did tried to search...

        Why are there so few Product Owner courses? It seems Ken Schwaber and
        Mike Cohn offer 2 or 3 CPO courses per year. A few other CST's offer
        product owner training. Compare this with about 40 CST's offering
        dozens (hundreds?) of CSM courses annually.

        It strkes me as a little odd that there is an established industry that
        churns out thousands of CSM's (many of whom never practise), whilst
        PO 's are largely ignored.

        Is there something I don't 'get'?

        Peter

      • srinivas chillara
        Maybe because SMs have to understand Scrum much better. And they are the ones who ensure that the approach works. In comparision PO role is less demanding.
        Message 3 of 16 , May 28 9:08 PM
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          Maybe because SMs have to understand Scrum much
          better. And they are the ones who ensure that the
          approach works.
          In comparision PO role is less demanding. Especially
          if the PO is from the client/end-use company.





          > Forgive me if I've missed a previous thread - I did
          > tried to search...
          >
          > Why are there so few Product Owner courses? It seems
          > Ken Schwaber and
          > Mike Cohn offer 2 or 3 CPO courses per year. A few
          > other CST's offer
          > product owner training. Compare this with about 40
          > CST's offering
          > dozens (hundreds?) of CSM courses annually.
          >
          > It strkes me as a little odd that there is an
          > established industry that
          > churns out thousands of CSM's (many of whom never
          > practise), whilst
          > PO's are largely ignored.
          >
          > Is there something I don't 'get'?
          >
          > Peter
          >
          >
          >
          >



          Download prohibited? No problem! To chat from any browser without download, Click Here: http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
        • Peter Hundermark
          ... We develop software products and our PO s are all internal. My limited experience with Scrum (8 months) suggests that the PO role is as demanding as the SM
          Message 4 of 16 , May 29 5:43 AM
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            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, srinivas chillara
            <ceezone@...> wrote:
            >
            > Maybe because SMs have to understand Scrum much
            > better. And they are the ones who ensure that the
            > approach works.
            > In comparision PO role is less demanding. Especially
            > if the PO is from the client/end-use company.
            >

            We develop software products and our PO's are all internal. My limited
            experience with Scrum (8 months) suggests that the PO role is as
            demanding as the SM role - perhaps even more so. I find leadership of a
            Scrum team to be a delicate co-operation and balance between the PO
            providing the vision and driving the team via the business requirements
            [backlog], and the SM coaching, nurturing and protecting the team and
            removing impediments.

            Am I alone in thinking PO's need more help (coaching, training)?

            Peter
          • Tobias Mayer
            Peter, you are absolutely correct. I honestly think a lot of Scrum efforts fail due to the ignorance of both internal POs and external customers. Training the
            Message 5 of 16 , May 29 9:11 AM
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              Peter, you are absolutely correct.

              I honestly think a lot of Scrum efforts fail due to the ignorance of both internal POs and external customers.  Training the former should be simple (but apparently isn't).  Training the latter is much harder, but no less necessary.

              It is a mistake to think, like Srinivas, that it is less important to have knowledgable product people.  Be careful with that assumption.

              Tobias




              Peter Hundermark <peterh@...> wrote:
              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, srinivas chillara
              wrote:
              >
              > Maybe because SMs have to understand Scrum much
              > better. And they are the ones who ensure that the
              > approach works.
              > In comparision PO role is less demanding. Especially
              > if the PO is from the client/end-use company.
              >

              We develop software products and our PO's are all internal. My limited
              experience with Scrum (8 months) suggests that the PO role is as
              demanding as the SM role - perhaps even more so. I find leadership of a
              Scrum team to be a delicate co-operation and balance between the PO
              providing the vision and driving the team via the business requirements
              [backlog], and the SM coaching, nurturing and protecting the team and
              removing impediments.

              Am I alone in thinking PO's need more help (coaching, training)?

              Peter



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            • Mark Levison
              I think the training is valuable its just that most organisations haven t recognized it yet. As a result practicing scrum masters often wear two hats - one
              Message 6 of 16 , May 29 12:11 PM
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                I think the training is valuable its just that most organisations haven't recognized it yet. As a result practicing scrum masters often wear two hats - one facilitator for team and the other coaching the PO. A mature scrum master can maintain this balance. A mature PO can accept that at some moments they're being coached while at others they're debating what is best for product. In an ideal world the PO would have training and there would be a third party coaching. I don't live in that ideal world and nor do many other people.

                So to Peter's original point - I think that organisations don't yet perceive the need to train the PO's. So in my mind we appear to have an education problem - the question how do we help educate without it seeming like a money grab? (The perception I've seen in a few places (not my current org) when the idea of training team members came up.

                Cheers
                Mark Levison
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                Most Popular posts:
                Aperture vs. Lightroom - best comparisons
                http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2007/02/aperture_vs_lig.html
                Scrum in a Nutshell or 5 minutes to learn Scrum http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/11/scrum_in_a_nuts.html
                Getting Things Done!!! Can't Keep Track of all the tasks you have to do? Need a better Tool to Implement GTD? http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/12/getting_things_.html
              • srinivas chillara
                ... Not too sure, I don t feel that way. I think if PO understand Scrum to a certain level, and they can write good stories/PB items, then that is good enough.
                Message 7 of 16 , May 30 10:21 PM
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                  > We develop software products and our PO's are all
                  > internal. My limited
                  > experience with Scrum (8 months) suggests that the
                  > PO role is as
                  > demanding as the SM role - perhaps even more so. I
                  > find leadership of a
                  > Scrum team to be a delicate co-operation and balance
                  > between the PO
                  > providing the vision and driving the team via the
                  > business requirements
                  > [backlog], and the SM coaching, nurturing and
                  > protecting the team and
                  > removing impediments.

                  Not too sure, I don't feel that way. I think if PO
                  understand Scrum to a certain level, and they can
                  write good stories/PB items, then that is good enough.
                  They need to know the functional domain well.
                  After all PO could be from the end-user community, and
                  it is unrealistic to expect such people to have a lot
                  of Scrum training and background.


                  > Am I alone in thinking PO's need more help
                  > (coaching, training)?

                  Not really, PO need more training etc... but not
                  nearly as much as ScrumMasters







                  __________________________________________________________
                  Yahoo! India Answers: Share what you know. Learn something new
                  http://in.answers.yahoo.com/
                • arne.ahlander
                  I went to a PO course since we saw a large need internally and at our customers. The observations I have made are that knowledged POs can better contribute to
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 31 2:27 PM
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                    I went to a PO course since we saw a large need internally and at our
                    customers. The observations I have made are that knowledged POs can
                    better contribute to the success of the team/s.

                    With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work out well
                    eventhough the PO has less training or experience, but good can
                    always get better.

                    /Arne

                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, srinivas chillara
                    <ceezone@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > We develop software products and our PO's are all
                    > > internal. My limited
                    > > experience with Scrum (8 months) suggests that the
                    > > PO role is as
                    > > demanding as the SM role - perhaps even more so. I
                    > > find leadership of a
                    > > Scrum team to be a delicate co-operation and balance
                    > > between the PO
                    > > providing the vision and driving the team via the
                    > > business requirements
                    > > [backlog], and the SM coaching, nurturing and
                    > > protecting the team and
                    > > removing impediments.
                    >
                    > Not too sure, I don't feel that way. I think if PO
                    > understand Scrum to a certain level, and they can
                    > write good stories/PB items, then that is good enough.
                    > They need to know the functional domain well.
                    > After all PO could be from the end-user community, and
                    > it is unrealistic to expect such people to have a lot
                    > of Scrum training and background.
                    >
                    >
                    > > Am I alone in thinking PO's need more help
                    > > (coaching, training)?
                    >
                    > Not really, PO need more training etc... but not
                    > nearly as much as ScrumMasters
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________________
                    > Yahoo! India Answers: Share what you know. Learn something new
                    > http://in.answers.yahoo.com/
                    >
                  • srinivas chillara
                    ... Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get the project shot to pieces. Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click here
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
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                      --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@...> wrote:

                      > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
                      > out well
                      > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
                      > but good can
                      > always get better.
                      > arne


                      Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
                      the project shot to pieces.




                      Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click here http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
                    • Patrick Debois
                      As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer side managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing it together for a customer.
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
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                        As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer side managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing it together for a customer.

                        I've scheduled a CSM training, does it make sense to follow both trainings? Or is most of the information 'overlapping'.


                        srinivas chillara wrote:


                        --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                        > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
                        > out well
                        > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
                        > but good can
                        > always get better.
                        > arne

                        Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
                        the project shot to pieces.

                        Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click here http://in.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php


                      • Roman Pichler
                        Hi Patrick, You can either schedule a third day that covers product owner topics such as product backlog management and user stories or you can schedule a
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
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                          Hi Patrick,

                          You can either schedule a third day that covers product owner topics
                          such as product backlog management and user stories or you can
                          schedule a separate product owner class. Even though my personal
                          preference as a trainer and coach is the second option, it very much
                          depends on the situation of your client. If you have only a few
                          product owners that need to be trained, I'd go for the second option.

                          Best regards,
                          Roman

                          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Debois
                          <Patrick.Debois@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer
                          side
                          > managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing it
                          > together for a customer.
                          >
                          > I've scheduled a CSM training, does it make sense to follow both
                          > trainings? Or is most of the information 'overlapping'.
                          >
                          >
                          > srinivas chillara wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@...
                          > > <mailto:arne.ahlander%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
                          > > > out well
                          > > > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
                          > > > but good can
                          > > > always get better.
                          > > > arne
                          > >
                          > > Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
                          > > the project shot to pieces.
                          > >
                          > > Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click
                          here
                          > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
                          > > <http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php>
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Patrick Debois
                          Hi Roman, I m not talking from the trainer perspective. I was thinking from the trainee perspective. Would it make sense to follow the PO training if you
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
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                            Hi Roman, I'm not talking from the trainer perspective. I was thinking from the trainee perspective.
                            Would it make sense to follow the PO training if you already followed the SM training?



                            Roman Pichler wrote:

                            Hi Patrick,

                            You can either schedule a third day that covers product owner topics
                            such as product backlog management and user stories or you can
                            schedule a separate product owner class. Even though my personal
                            preference as a trainer and coach is the second option, it very much
                            depends on the situation of your client. If you have only a few
                            product owners that need to be trained, I'd go for the second option.

                            Best regards,
                            Roman

                            --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Patrick Debois
                            <Patrick.Debois@ ...> wrote:
                            >
                            > As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer
                            side
                            > managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing it
                            > together for a customer.
                            >
                            > I've scheduled a CSM training, does it make sense to follow both
                            > trainings? Or is most of the information 'overlapping' .
                            >
                            >
                            > srinivas chillara wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@ ...
                            > > <mailto:arne. ahlander% 40yahoo.com> > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
                            > > > out well
                            > > > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
                            > > > but good can
                            > > > always get better.
                            > > > arne
                            > >
                            > > Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
                            > > the project shot to pieces.
                            > >
                            > > Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click
                            here
                            > > http://in.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php
                            > > <http://in.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php>
                            > >
                            > >
                            >


                          • Neeraj Deginal
                            Both are different role with different responsibilities. I would advise playing only one role for one project. If you plan to play a role of PO then it would
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
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                              Both are different role with different responsibilities. I would advise playing only one role for one project. If you plan to play a role of PO then it would be advisable for PO training, as lot of decision making responsibilities lies with PO.

                               

                              Regards,

                              Neeraj

                               

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Debois
                              Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:18 PM
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [SPAM] Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum training
                              Importance: Low

                               

                              Hi Roman, I'm not talking from the trainer perspective. I was thinking from the trainee perspective.
                              Would it make sense to follow the PO training if you already followed the SM training?



                              Roman Pichler wrote:

                              Hi Patrick,

                              You can either schedule a third day that covers product owner topics
                              such as product backlog management and user stories or you can
                              schedule a separate product owner class. Even though my personal
                              preference as a trainer and coach is the second option, it very much
                              depends on the situation of your client. If you have only a few
                              product owners that need to be trained, I'd go for the second option.

                              Best regards,
                              Roman

                              --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Patrick Debois
                              <Patrick.Debois@ ...> wrote:
                              >
                              > As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer
                              side
                              > managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing it
                              > together for a customer.
                              >
                              > I've scheduled a CSM training, does it make sense to follow both
                              > trainings? Or is most of the information 'overlapping' .
                              >
                              >
                              > srinivas chillara wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@ ...
                              > > <mailto:arne. ahlander% 40yahoo.com> > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
                              > > > out well
                              > > > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
                              > > > but good can
                              > > > always get better.
                              > > > arne
                              > >
                              > > Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
                              > > the project shot to pieces.
                              > >
                              > > Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click
                              here
                              > > http://in.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php
                              > > <http://in.messenger .yahoo.com/ webmessengerprom o.php>
                              > >
                              > >
                              >

                               

                            • Roman Pichler
                              Hi Patrick, Judging from my experience, most product owners need additional knowledge and skills to do their job effectively. The CSM class primarily focuses
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
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                                Hi Patrick,

                                Judging from my experience, most product owners need additional
                                knowledge and skills to do their job effectively. The CSM class
                                primarily focuses on the skills necessary for ScrumMasters. I have
                                trained product owners using dedicated training classes, workshops
                                and boot camps. I also frequently recommended self-study, e.g., by
                                reading Mike Cohn's excellent book on user stories. It depends on
                                what is most helpful for the people involved and how much exposure
                                the individuals have had to Scrum.

                                Best regards,
                                Roman

                                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Debois
                                <Patrick.Debois@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Roman, I'm not talking from the trainer perspective. I was
                                thinking
                                > from the trainee perspective.
                                > Would it make sense to follow the PO training if you already
                                followed
                                > the SM training?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Roman Pichler wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hi Patrick,
                                > >
                                > > You can either schedule a third day that covers product owner
                                topics
                                > > such as product backlog management and user stories or you can
                                > > schedule a separate product owner class. Even though my personal
                                > > preference as a trainer and coach is the second option, it very
                                much
                                > > depends on the situation of your client. If you have only a few
                                > > product owners that need to be trained, I'd go for the second
                                option.
                                > >
                                > > Best regards,
                                > > Roman
                                > >
                                > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                > > <mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com>, Patrick Debois
                                > > <Patrick.Debois@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > As a consultant I often switch sides: sometimes at the customer
                                > > side
                                > > > managing the company doing the project, sometimes implementing
                                it
                                > > > together for a customer.
                                > > >
                                > > > I've scheduled a CSM training, does it make sense to follow both
                                > > > trainings? Or is most of the information 'overlapping'.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > srinivas chillara wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- "arne.ahlander" <arne.ahlander@
                                > > > > <mailto:arne.ahlander%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > > With a good SM and a dedicated team things can work
                                > > > > > out well
                                > > > > > eventhough the PO has less training or experience,
                                > > > > > but good can
                                > > > > > always get better.
                                > > > > > arne
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Absolutely. But a poor SM will almost certainly get
                                > > > > the project shot to pieces.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger.
                                Click
                                > > here
                                > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
                                > > <http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php>
                                > > > > <http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
                                > > <http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php>>
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Mark Levison
                                ... To Roman s excellent advice I would suggest start with your CSM, Mike s book on User Stories, Mike s presentation: Becoming an Effective Product Owner
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
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                                  On 6/1/07, Roman Pichler <roman.pichler@...> wrote:
                                  Hi Patrick,

                                  Judging from my experience, most product owners need additional
                                  knowledge and skills to do their job effectively. The CSM class
                                  primarily focuses on the skills necessary for ScrumMasters. I have
                                  trained product owners using dedicated training classes, workshops
                                  and boot camps. I also frequently recommended self-study, e.g., by
                                  reading Mike Cohn's excellent book on user stories. It depends on
                                  what is most helpful for the people involved and how much exposure
                                  the individuals have had to Scrum.

                                  To Roman's excellent advice I would suggest start with your CSM, Mike's book on User Stories, Mike's presentation: "Becoming an Effective Product Owner " (http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/presentation_view/47) from the Nov '06 Scrum Gathering.

                                  But as with anything else in Scrum I would use the inspect and adapt process. So take your course, do some reading and check where you're at. If you need more help - we will still be here to answer questions.

                                  Cheers
                                  Mark
                                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                                  Most Popular posts:
                                  Aperture vs. Lightroom - best comparisons
                                  http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2007/02/aperture_vs_lig.html
                                  Scrum in a Nutshell or 5 minutes to learn Scrum http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/11/scrum_in_a_nuts.html
                                  Getting Things Done!!! Can't Keep Track of all the tasks you have to do? Need a better Tool to Implement GTD? http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/12/getting_things_.html
                                • Alan Shalloway
                                  ... search... ... and ... offer ... that ... whilst ... The need for the product owner varies a lot depending upon whether the software organization is a
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jun 1, 2007
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                                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Hundermark"
                                    <peterh@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Forgive me if I've missed a previous thread - I did tried to
                                    search...
                                    >
                                    > Why are there so few Product Owner courses? It seems Ken Schwaber
                                    and
                                    > Mike Cohn offer 2 or 3 CPO courses per year. A few other CST's
                                    offer
                                    > product owner training. Compare this with about 40 CST's offering
                                    > dozens (hundreds?) of CSM courses annually.
                                    >
                                    > It strkes me as a little odd that there is an established industry
                                    that
                                    > churns out thousands of CSM's (many of whom never practise),
                                    whilst
                                    > PO's are largely ignored.
                                    >
                                    > Is there something I don't 'get'?
                                    >
                                    > Peter
                                    >

                                    The need for the product owner varies a lot depending upon whether
                                    the software organization is a product type organization (creating
                                    something sold) or an IT organization (creating something used
                                    internally). Many software organizations actually have the role of
                                    the product owner reasonably understood, but have no clue as to how
                                    to really organize a product backlog or how to break stories up into
                                    right sizes.

                                    We offer a course called "Agile Estimation and Analysis For
                                    Developers and Product Owners" see
                                    (http://www.netobjectives.com/courses/agile-estimation-analysis-
                                    developer-product-owner) which is a team based approach to analysis
                                    in a Scrum environment. We have found a team based approach to
                                    analysis to be very useful in the same way our team based approach
                                    to teaching Scrum is (Implementing Scrum For Your Team). In other
                                    words, instead of focusing on how to train _a_ project
                                    leader/facilitator (the Scrum Master) or _a_ voice of the customer
                                    (the Product Owner) we find a team based approach to training works
                                    much better.

                                    How to fill the role of the product owner itself when it is not
                                    present is typically very different for different organizations. In
                                    many of these cases, once the problem is understood, the team can
                                    usually figure out how to best fill the role better than an outsider.

                                    I find it ironic that a team based approach focuses so much on two
                                    (admittedly key) roles.

                                    Alan Shalloway
                                    CEO, Net Objectives
                                    www.netobjectives.com
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