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Daily Scrum vs. 30 minutes three times a week

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  • Mark Levison
    I was just asked by someone on a non-Agile why the daily scrum would be better than their current three times a week sit down meeting. Embarrassingly my mind
    Message 1 of 20 , May 23, 2007
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      I was just asked by someone on a non-Agile why the daily scrum would
      be better than their current three times a week sit down meeting.

      Embarrassingly my mind went blank. Here's the best I can do off the
      top of my head
      - 15 minutes saved every week.
      - Team shares information vs. reporting to manager
      - Creates a certain energy to help get the team going
      - Held in front of the task board - helps the team to focus on their progress.

      I feel like I'm missing something big - especially as to why the daily
      scrum is better than a 30 minute sit down team meeting.

      Tired in Ottawa
      Mark Levison
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
      Most Popular posts:
      Aperture vs. Lightroom - best comparisons
      http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2007/02/aperture_vs_lig.html
      Scrum in a Nutshell or 5 minutes to learn Scrum
      http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/11/scrum_in_a_nuts.html
      Getting Things Done!!! Can't Keep Track of all the tasks you have to
      do? Need a better Tool to Implement GTD?
      http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/12/getting_things_.html
    • Heitor Roriz Filho
      I think one remarkable point is the fact that with daily 15-min scrums technical issues are solved faster, as they tend to increase over time if not addressed
      Message 2 of 20 , May 23, 2007
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        I think one remarkable point is the fact that with daily 15-min scrums technical issues are solved faster, as they tend to increase over time if not addressed promptly. For time critical projects can show up to be very important and make a huge difference at the end of a sprint.

        Heitor

        -----Original Message-----
        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Levison
        Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 3:07 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Daily Scrum vs. 30 minutes three times a week

        I was just asked by someone on a non-Agile why the daily scrum would be better than their current three times a week sit down meeting.

        Embarrassingly my mind went blank. Here's the best I can do off the top of my head
        - 15 minutes saved every week.
        - Team shares information vs. reporting to manager
        - Creates a certain energy to help get the team going
        - Held in front of the task board - helps the team to focus on their progress.

        I feel like I'm missing something big - especially as to why the daily scrum is better than a 30 minute sit down team meeting.

        Tired in Ottawa
        Mark Levison
        ----------------------------------------------------------
        Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/ <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/>
        Most Popular posts:
        Aperture vs. Lightroom - best comparisons http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2007/02/aperture_vs_lig.html <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2007/02/aperture_vs_lig.html>
        Scrum in a Nutshell or 5 minutes to learn Scrum http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/11/scrum_in_a_nuts.html <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/11/scrum_in_a_nuts.html>
        Getting Things Done!!! Can't Keep Track of all the tasks you have to do? Need a better Tool to Implement GTD?
        http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/12/getting_things_.html <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/12/getting_things_.html>





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      • Ilja Preuss
        Simple answer: they won t know *whether* it is for them until they try... Also: one goal, as I understand it, is to organize the day. A daily rhythm just seems
        Message 3 of 20 , May 23, 2007
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          Simple answer: they won't know *whether* it is for them until they try...

          Also: one goal, as I understand it, is to organize the day. A daily
          rhythm just seems to be natural for that.

          Another thought: why would it be worse?

          Cheers, Ilja

          Mark Levison wrote:
          > I was just asked by someone on a non-Agile why the daily scrum would
          > be better than their current three times a week sit down meeting.
          >
          > Embarrassingly my mind went blank. Here's the best I can do off the
          > top of my head
          > - 15 minutes saved every week.
          > - Team shares information vs. reporting to manager
          > - Creates a certain energy to help get the team going
          > - Held in front of the task board - helps the team to focus on their progress.
          >
          > I feel like I'm missing something big - especially as to why the daily
          > scrum is better than a 30 minute sit down team meeting.
          >
          > Tired in Ottawa
          > Mark Levison
          > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          > Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
          > Most Popular posts:
          > Aperture vs. Lightroom - best comparisons
          > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2007/02/aperture_vs_lig.html
          > Scrum in a Nutshell or 5 minutes to learn Scrum
          > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/11/scrum_in_a_nuts.html
          > Getting Things Done!!! Can't Keep Track of all the tasks you have to
          > do? Need a better Tool to Implement GTD?
          > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/12/getting_things_.html
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
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          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Tim Haughton
          ... I ll +1 for Ilja. A day is the natural rhythm. Some other thoughts: Standing up keeps me focused - helps stop the meeting digressing or running over. Also
          Message 4 of 20 , May 23, 2007
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            On 23/05/07, Mark Levison <mlevison@...> wrote:
            > I was just asked by someone on a non-Agile why the daily scrum would
            > be better than their current three times a week sit down meeting.

            I'll +1 for Ilja. A day is the natural rhythm.

            Some other thoughts:

            Standing up keeps me focused - helps stop the meeting digressing or
            running over. Also - means that folks aren't looking at their laptops
            or notepads, they're focused on the task board.

            Why wait longer to communicate problems, happenings, successes etc.

            The metronomic "what did you commit to yesterday? what did you
            complete? what are you committing to today?" keeps up the sense of
            hustle.

            It' a good and frequent opportunity to request to pair with someone
            before the team get stuck in.

            --
            Regards,

            Tim Haughton
          • Oldfield, Paul (ASPIRE)
            (responding to Mark) ... You never wait more than a day to find you are off course. Have we finished what we said we d have done by now in yesterday s meeting?
            Message 5 of 20 , May 23, 2007
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              (responding to Mark)

              > I feel like I'm missing something big - especially as to why the
              > daily scrum is better than a 30 minute sit down team meeting.

              You never wait more than a day to find you are off course. Have
              we finished what we said we'd have done by now in yesterday's
              meeting? What is slowing us down?

              Paul Oldfield
            • Venkatesh
              Even though I agree with importance of Daily scrum meetings, I have seen some teams adopting this to couple of times a week. I have seen this particular
              Message 6 of 20 , May 24, 2007
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                Even though I agree with importance of Daily scrum meetings, I have
                seen some teams adopting this to couple of times a week.
                I have seen this particular product development team working together
                from the last 3 years. Since they know the product very well and the
                product is pretty stable, they feel they need not meet daily. Their
                concern is not about "spending" 15 minutes of their time daily, but
                they don't see much value as things are pretty stable.

                Venkatesh
                http://agileworld.blogspot.com





                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Levison"
                <mlevison@...> wrote:
                >
                > I was just asked by someone on a non-Agile why the daily scrum would
                > be better than their current three times a week sit down meeting.
                >
                > Embarrassingly my mind went blank. Here's the best I can do off the
                > top of my head
                > - 15 minutes saved every week.
                > - Team shares information vs. reporting to manager
                > - Creates a certain energy to help get the team going
                > - Held in front of the task board - helps the team to focus on
                their progress.
                >
                > I feel like I'm missing something big - especially as to why the
                daily
                > scrum is better than a 30 minute sit down team meeting.
                >
                > Tired in Ottawa
                > Mark Levison
                > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                --
                > Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                > Most Popular posts:
                > Aperture vs. Lightroom - best comparisons
                > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2007/02/aperture_vs_lig.html
                > Scrum in a Nutshell or 5 minutes to learn Scrum
                > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/11/scrum_in_a_nuts.html
                > Getting Things Done!!! Can't Keep Track of all the tasks you have to
                > do? Need a better Tool to Implement GTD?
                > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/12/getting_things_.html
                >
              • Tobias Mayer
                If a team is located in a team room, with all members working closely together this seem like it would be fine as communication is happening all the time.
                Message 7 of 20 , May 24, 2007
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                  If a team is located in a team room, with all members working closely together this seem like it would be fine as communication is happening all the time.  There is still value in the moment of stillness that the 15 minute daily provides, like regaining your balance after jumping from one stepping stone to the next (a neat analogy that Boris Gloger uses).

                  If the team members are all working in separate offices or cubicles I think this would be a very bad idea, as the benefits of an Agile process are not being realized.  Much of the value of the stand up is about building community. 

                  Tobias


                  Venkatesh <venky_nk@...> wrote:
                  Even though I agree with importance of Daily scrum meetings, I have
                  seen some teams adopting this to couple of times a week.
                  I have seen this particular product development team working together
                  from the last 3 years. Since they know the product very well and the
                  product is pretty stable, they feel they need not meet daily. Their
                  concern is not about "spending" 15 minutes of their time daily, but
                  they don't see much value as things are pretty stable.

                  Venkatesh
                  http://agileworld.blogspot.com





                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Levison"
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I was just asked by someone on a non-Agile why the daily scrum would
                  > be better than their current three times a week sit down meeting.
                  >
                  > Embarrassingly my mind went blank. Here's the best I can do off the
                  > top of my head
                  > - 15 minutes saved every week.
                  > - Team shares information vs. reporting to manager
                  > - Creates a certain energy to help get the team going
                  > - Held in front of the task board - helps the team to focus on
                  their progress.
                  >
                  > I feel like I'm missing something big - especially as to why the
                  daily
                  > scrum is better than a 30 minute sit down team meeting.
                  >
                  > Tired in Ottawa
                  > Mark Levison
                  > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                  --
                  > Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                  > Most Popular posts:
                  > Aperture vs. Lightroom - best comparisons
                  > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2007/02/aperture_vs_lig.html
                  > Scrum in a Nutshell or 5 minutes to learn Scrum
                  > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/11/scrum_in_a_nuts.html
                  > Getting Things Done!!! Can't Keep Track of all the tasks you have to
                  > do? Need a better Tool to Implement GTD?
                  > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/12/getting_things_.html
                  >




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                • Carlos Lima
                  Hello Venkatesh, In my opinion, daily scrum meetings should be conducted within an interval that makes the most sense for your particular situation. If the
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 24, 2007
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                    Hello Venkatesh,

                    In my opinion, daily scrum meetings should be conducted within an interval
                    that makes the most sense for your particular situation. If the entire
                    teams feels that every other day is more effective than on a daily basis,
                    then meetings should be done that way.

                    Scrum meetings are meant to keep the momentum and burndown going while
                    promoting team spirit, communication and synchronization.

                    As long as your team holds Scrum meetings frequently enough, without
                    affecting momentum, burndown and spirit, then productivity is optimized and
                    the meetings serve their purpose within the Sprint.

                    I also don't think that increasing the time of each scrum to 30 minutes is
                    necessary. If you are going to do this, then you might as well have daily
                    15min scrums because that additional time needed might be an indication that
                    there are a lot of issues that need to be shared.

                    Again, this is my opinion and this is my way of doing things. I'm not a
                    Scrum purist but rather someone who uses Scrum principles to maximize value
                    and productivity to the Customer.

                    Regards,





                    >From: "Venkatesh" <venky_nk@...>
                    >Reply-To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Daily Scrum vs. 30 minutes three times a
                    >week
                    >Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 13:35:30 -0000
                    >
                    >Even though I agree with importance of Daily scrum meetings, I have
                    >seen some teams adopting this to couple of times a week.
                    >I have seen this particular product development team working together
                    >from the last 3 years. Since they know the product very well and the
                    >product is pretty stable, they feel they need not meet daily. Their
                    >concern is not about "spending" 15 minutes of their time daily, but
                    >they don't see much value as things are pretty stable.
                    >
                    >Venkatesh
                    >http://agileworld.blogspot.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >--- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Levison"
                    ><mlevison@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I was just asked by someone on a non-Agile why the daily scrum would
                    > > be better than their current three times a week sit down meeting.
                    > >
                    > > Embarrassingly my mind went blank. Here's the best I can do off the
                    > > top of my head
                    > > - 15 minutes saved every week.
                    > > - Team shares information vs. reporting to manager
                    > > - Creates a certain energy to help get the team going
                    > > - Held in front of the task board - helps the team to focus on
                    >their progress.
                    > >
                    > > I feel like I'm missing something big - especially as to why the
                    >daily
                    > > scrum is better than a 30 minute sit down team meeting.
                    > >
                    > > Tired in Ottawa
                    > > Mark Levison
                    > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >--
                    > > Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                    > > Most Popular posts:
                    > > Aperture vs. Lightroom - best comparisons
                    > > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2007/02/aperture_vs_lig.html
                    > > Scrum in a Nutshell or 5 minutes to learn Scrum
                    > > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/11/scrum_in_a_nuts.html
                    > > Getting Things Done!!! Can't Keep Track of all the tasks you have to
                    > > do? Need a better Tool to Implement GTD?
                    > > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/12/getting_things_.html
                    > >
                    >
                    >

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                  • Carlos Lima
                    Another comment about the frequency of Scrum meetings. Frequency is meant to keep the order and discipline within the Sprint. If you let a few days go by
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 24, 2007
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                      Another comment about the frequency of Scrum meetings. Frequency is meant
                      to keep the order and discipline within the Sprint.

                      If you let a few days go by without any meetings, then the development
                      effort starts to fall into chaos. Once a situation is chaotic, it's much
                      more difficult to bring it back to order than if you never let it fall into
                      chaos in the first place.

                      For example, I go to the gym every other day. This is good enough for me.
                      Sometimes, I'm tired and then I don't go once. For some strange reason,
                      more often than not, once I skip one workout session I tend to skip the next
                      session too. Then, two missed sessions turn into three, four, two weeks,
                      one month. I'm in a fitness chaos. And getting back to my normal workout
                      program is very difficult and requires a true exercise of will.

                      Likewise, Scrum frequency is meant to keep the discipline and control on the
                      process.

                      Again, these are my opinions.



                      >From: "Venkatesh" <venky_nk@...>
                      >Reply-To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Daily Scrum vs. 30 minutes three times a
                      >week
                      >Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 13:35:30 -0000
                      >
                      >Even though I agree with importance of Daily scrum meetings, I have
                      >seen some teams adopting this to couple of times a week.
                      >I have seen this particular product development team working together
                      >from the last 3 years. Since they know the product very well and the
                      >product is pretty stable, they feel they need not meet daily. Their
                      >concern is not about "spending" 15 minutes of their time daily, but
                      >they don't see much value as things are pretty stable.
                      >
                      >Venkatesh
                      >http://agileworld.blogspot.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >--- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Levison"
                      ><mlevison@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I was just asked by someone on a non-Agile why the daily scrum would
                      > > be better than their current three times a week sit down meeting.
                      > >
                      > > Embarrassingly my mind went blank. Here's the best I can do off the
                      > > top of my head
                      > > - 15 minutes saved every week.
                      > > - Team shares information vs. reporting to manager
                      > > - Creates a certain energy to help get the team going
                      > > - Held in front of the task board - helps the team to focus on
                      >their progress.
                      > >
                      > > I feel like I'm missing something big - especially as to why the
                      >daily
                      > > scrum is better than a 30 minute sit down team meeting.
                      > >
                      > > Tired in Ottawa
                      > > Mark Levison
                      > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >--
                      > > Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                      > > Most Popular posts:
                      > > Aperture vs. Lightroom - best comparisons
                      > > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2007/02/aperture_vs_lig.html
                      > > Scrum in a Nutshell or 5 minutes to learn Scrum
                      > > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/11/scrum_in_a_nuts.html
                      > > Getting Things Done!!! Can't Keep Track of all the tasks you have to
                      > > do? Need a better Tool to Implement GTD?
                      > > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/12/getting_things_.html
                      > >
                      >
                      >

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                    • Ilja Preuss
                      ... Agreed. And to be able to feel the difference, and to actually know what makes the most sense for their particular situation - they will need to try it
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 24, 2007
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                        Carlos Lima wrote:

                        > In my opinion, daily scrum meetings should be conducted within an interval
                        > that makes the most sense for your particular situation. If the entire
                        > teams feels that every other day is more effective than on a daily basis,
                        > then meetings should be done that way.

                        Agreed. And to be able to feel the difference, and to actually know what
                        makes the most sense for their particular situation - they will need to
                        try it both ways. Only after they have tried daily meetings for a
                        reasonable time - say a couple of weeks - are they able to effectively
                        decide whether every other day works better for them.

                        Cheers, Ilja
                      • Mishkin Berteig
                        I have a rule of thumb that I use: every sprint should have a minimum of 5 Scrum meetings and a maximum of 20. The actual number depends on the Sprint length,
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 24, 2007
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                          I have a rule of thumb that I use: every sprint should have a minimum of 5 Scrum meetings and a maximum of 20.  The actual number depends on the Sprint length, the need for granular tracking of burndown, developing team cohesion, and likelihood of obstacles and interruptions.  All of these pressures, except for Sprint length, encourage erring on the side of more Scrum meetings.  One team of six people that I coached had Sprints that were only two days long... and they had 8 Scrum meetings in that time.  The meetings were held to be 3.5 minutes or less!!!

                          One common reason that is often used to justify less frequent Scrum meetings is that it is hard (for some reason) to get people together every day.  This should be framed as an obstacle, not a reason to have less frequent meetings.

                          Good luck!
                           
                          Mishkin Berteig
                          mishkin@...
                          http://www.agileadvice.com/
                          "Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues" - Baha'u'llah


                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: Ilja Preuss <it@...>
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 6:55:49 PM
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Daily Scrum vs. 30 minutes three times a week

                          Carlos Lima wrote:

                          > In my opinion, daily scrum meetings should be conducted within an interval
                          > that makes the most sense for your particular situation.  If the entire
                          >
                          teams feels that every other day is more effective than on a daily basis,
                          > then meetings should be done that way.

                          Agreed. And to be able to feel the difference, and to actually know what
                          makes the most sense for their particular situation - they will need to
                          try it both ways. Only after they have tried daily meetings for a
                          reasonable time - say a couple of weeks - are they able to effectively
                          decide whether every other day works better for them.

                          Cheers, Ilja


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                        • Ken Schwaber
                          The team sets a Sprint goal. The daily scrum is their inspection of their progress, as a team, towards the goal, and their adaptation to optimize their
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 24, 2007
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                            The team sets a Sprint goal. The daily scrum is their inspection of their
                            progress, as a team, towards the goal, and their adaptation to optimize
                            their results. Daily is needed when they work as a team. When they aren't a
                            team, it doesn't matter how infrequently they meet. Self-management is the
                            issue here. Meet daily to self-manage; don't meet daily if the members of
                            the team aren't working together,
                            Ken

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Lima
                            Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 4:19 PM
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Daily Scrum vs. 30 minutes three times a
                            week

                            Another comment about the frequency of Scrum meetings. Frequency is meant
                            to keep the order and discipline within the Sprint.

                            If you let a few days go by without any meetings, then the development
                            effort starts to fall into chaos. Once a situation is chaotic, it's much
                            more difficult to bring it back to order than if you never let it fall into
                            chaos in the first place.

                            For example, I go to the gym every other day. This is good enough for me.
                            Sometimes, I'm tired and then I don't go once. For some strange reason,
                            more often than not, once I skip one workout session I tend to skip the next

                            session too. Then, two missed sessions turn into three, four, two weeks,
                            one month. I'm in a fitness chaos. And getting back to my normal workout
                            program is very difficult and requires a true exercise of will.

                            Likewise, Scrum frequency is meant to keep the discipline and control on the

                            process.

                            Again, these are my opinions.



                            >From: "Venkatesh" <venky_nk@...>
                            >Reply-To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            >Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Daily Scrum vs. 30 minutes three times a
                            >week
                            >Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 13:35:30 -0000
                            >
                            >Even though I agree with importance of Daily scrum meetings, I have
                            >seen some teams adopting this to couple of times a week.
                            >I have seen this particular product development team working together
                            >from the last 3 years. Since they know the product very well and the
                            >product is pretty stable, they feel they need not meet daily. Their
                            >concern is not about "spending" 15 minutes of their time daily, but
                            >they don't see much value as things are pretty stable.
                            >
                            >Venkatesh
                            >http://agileworld.blogspot.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >--- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Levison"
                            ><mlevison@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I was just asked by someone on a non-Agile why the daily scrum would
                            > > be better than their current three times a week sit down meeting.
                            > >
                            > > Embarrassingly my mind went blank. Here's the best I can do off the
                            > > top of my head
                            > > - 15 minutes saved every week.
                            > > - Team shares information vs. reporting to manager
                            > > - Creates a certain energy to help get the team going
                            > > - Held in front of the task board - helps the team to focus on
                            >their progress.
                            > >
                            > > I feel like I'm missing something big - especially as to why the
                            >daily
                            > > scrum is better than a 30 minute sit down team meeting.
                            > >
                            > > Tired in Ottawa
                            > > Mark Levison
                            > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                            >--
                            > > Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                            > > Most Popular posts:
                            > > Aperture vs. Lightroom - best comparisons
                            > > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2007/02/aperture_vs_lig.html
                            > > Scrum in a Nutshell or 5 minutes to learn Scrum
                            > > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/11/scrum_in_a_nuts.html
                            > > Getting Things Done!!! Can't Keep Track of all the tasks you have to
                            > > do? Need a better Tool to Implement GTD?
                            > > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/12/getting_things_.html
                            > >
                            >
                            >

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                          • mpkirby
                            ... My experience shows the causal the other way. Teams don t meet daily to self-manage. Self-managing teams meet daily. If a team self-manages, then they
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 24, 2007
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                              Ken Schwaber wrote:
                              > The team sets a Sprint goal. The daily scrum is their inspection of their
                              > progress, as a team, towards the goal, and their adaptation to optimize
                              > their results. Daily is needed when they work as a team. When they aren't a
                              > team, it doesn't matter how infrequently they meet. Self-management is the
                              > issue here. Meet daily to self-manage; don't meet daily if the members of
                              > the team aren't working together,
                              > Ken
                              >
                              >

                              My experience shows the causal the other way.

                              Teams don't meet daily to self-manage. Self-managing teams meet daily.

                              If a team self-manages, then they meet daily. If they don't, then it
                              doesn't matter if they do or not. In fact, if they meet daily, and
                              don't self manage it will build resentment and dissatisfaction.

                              Mike
                            • srinivas chillara
                              ... I know teams can feel one thing or the other, but whole countries have been wrong, and have made dreadful mistakes by holding on to a majority shallow
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 24, 2007
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                                > situation. If the entire
                                > > teams feels that every other day is more effective
                                > than on a daily basis,
                                > > then meetings should be done that way.

                                I know teams can feel one thing or the other, but
                                whole countries have been wrong, and have made
                                dreadful mistakes by holding on to a majority shallow
                                opinion.



                                How can this be more effective? Anyone missing a
                                meeting will get back in into the flow only after
                                another 48 hrs or so! If an impediment is not cleared
                                more time is wasted, before the team/SM makes a
                                concerted effort to clear it. As the Sprint review
                                date approaches, I think it might even make sense for
                                teams to meet twice a day. Especially if they are in
                                the Debug/test/brush-up mode.

                                cheers
                                Cheenie







                                __________________________________________________________
                                Yahoo! India Answers: Share what you know. Learn something new
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                              • Peter Hundermark
                                ... of their ... optimize ... they aren t a ... management is the ... members of ... daily. ... it ... IMO that s what Ken said :-). Peter
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 25, 2007
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                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, mpkirby <mpkirby@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Ken Schwaber wrote:
                                  > > The team sets a Sprint goal. The daily scrum is their inspection
                                  of their
                                  > > progress, as a team, towards the goal, and their adaptation to
                                  optimize
                                  > > their results. Daily is needed when they work as a team. When
                                  they aren't a
                                  > > team, it doesn't matter how infrequently they meet. Self-
                                  management is the
                                  > > issue here. Meet daily to self-manage; don't meet daily if the
                                  members of
                                  > > the team aren't working together,
                                  > > Ken
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > My experience shows the causal the other way.
                                  >
                                  > Teams don't meet daily to self-manage. Self-managing teams meet
                                  daily.
                                  >
                                  > If a team self-manages, then they meet daily. If they don't, then
                                  it
                                  > doesn't matter if they do or not. In fact, if they meet daily, and
                                  > don't self manage it will build resentment and dissatisfaction.
                                  >
                                  > Mike
                                  >

                                  IMO that's what Ken said :-).

                                  Peter
                                • Peter Hundermark
                                  ... minimum of 5 Scrum meetings and a maximum of 20. The actual number depends on the Sprint length, the need for granular tracking of burndown, developing
                                  Message 16 of 20 , May 25, 2007
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                                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Mishkin Berteig
                                    <mishkin@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I have a rule of thumb that I use: every sprint should have a
                                    minimum of 5 Scrum meetings and a maximum of 20. The actual number
                                    depends on the Sprint length, the need for granular tracking of
                                    burndown, developing team cohesion, and likelihood of obstacles and
                                    interruptions. All of these pressures, except for Sprint length,
                                    encourage erring on the side of more Scrum meetings. One team of six
                                    people that I coached had Sprints that were only two days long... and
                                    they had 8 Scrum meetings in that time. The meetings were held to be
                                    3.5 minutes or less!!!
                                    >
                                    > One common reason that is often used to justify less frequent Scrum
                                    meetings is that it is hard (for some reason) to get people together
                                    every day. This should be framed as an obstacle, not a reason to
                                    have less frequent meetings.
                                    >
                                    > Good luck!
                                    >
                                    > Mishkin Berteig

                                    Why would you want such short sprints? How much business value can a
                                    team deliver in 2 days? Sounds more like XP on steroids than Scrum :-
                                    ).

                                    We've tried 1-week sprints on 1 team and changed to 2 weeks after a 4
                                    sprints. All other projects run 2- to 4-week sprints, with preference
                                    for 3 or 4 weeks once they 'get' Scrum.

                                    On the topic: I strongly support daily Scrums, whatever the iteration
                                    length, for all the reasons already stated by others.

                                    Just our experience so far...

                                    Regards,

                                    Peter
                                  • Jim York
                                    The daily scrum is about snychronization, commitment, and accountability. Each individual invites self and group inspection on the work he or she has
                                    Message 17 of 20 , May 25, 2007
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                                      The daily scrum is about snychronization, commitment, and
                                      accountability. Each individual invites self and group inspection on
                                      the work he or she has accomplished the previous day. This daily
                                      ritual is an important input for team adaptation throughout the
                                      sprint. This brief interlude for reflection and seeding the current
                                      day's work is an essential component of Scrum. If you are considering
                                      modifying this practice, first ask yourself and your team, "Why?".
                                      You may be suprised by the answer. Changing the frequency or format
                                      of the daily scrum may have little or nothing to do with the issue the
                                      team is trying to resolve.

                                      Jim
                                      --
                                      Jim York | CST and President, FoxHedge, Ltd | www.jim-york.com |
                                      703.431.2176 (c) 703.771.8367 (o)
                                    • Hank Roark
                                      I was presenting Agile and Scrum a few weeks back to an executive at my company. The daily Scrum came up. He told me if I were to go into one of our
                                      Message 18 of 20 , May 26, 2007
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                                        I was presenting Agile and Scrum a few weeks back to an executive at
                                        my company. The daily Scrum came up. He told me if I were to go into
                                        one of our manufacturing plants that is implementing lean that I would
                                        see daily, short, standing meetings at the beginning of each shift.
                                        It is a chance for the prior shift to let the incoming shift of any
                                        issues and/or changes to the process, the incoming shift to set goals
                                        for the day and to organize the work, etc. Seems like we in software
                                        can learn something from this.

                                        Cheers,
                                        Hank

                                        On 5/24/07, Ken Schwaber <ken.schwaber@...> wrote:
                                        > The team sets a Sprint goal. The daily scrum is their inspection of their
                                        > progress, as a team, towards the goal, and their adaptation to optimize
                                        > their results. Daily is needed when they work as a team. When they aren't a
                                        > team, it doesn't matter how infrequently they meet. Self-management is the
                                        > issue here. Meet daily to self-manage; don't meet daily if the members of
                                        > the team aren't working together,
                                        > Ken
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Lima
                                        > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 4:19 PM
                                        > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Daily Scrum vs. 30 minutes three times a
                                        > week
                                        >
                                        > Another comment about the frequency of Scrum meetings. Frequency is meant
                                        > to keep the order and discipline within the Sprint.
                                        >
                                        > If you let a few days go by without any meetings, then the development
                                        > effort starts to fall into chaos. Once a situation is chaotic, it's much
                                        > more difficult to bring it back to order than if you never let it fall into
                                        > chaos in the first place.
                                        >
                                        > For example, I go to the gym every other day. This is good enough for me.
                                        > Sometimes, I'm tired and then I don't go once. For some strange reason,
                                        > more often than not, once I skip one workout session I tend to skip the next
                                        >
                                        > session too. Then, two missed sessions turn into three, four, two weeks,
                                        > one month. I'm in a fitness chaos. And getting back to my normal workout
                                        > program is very difficult and requires a true exercise of will.
                                        >
                                        > Likewise, Scrum frequency is meant to keep the discipline and control on the
                                        >
                                        > process.
                                        >
                                        > Again, these are my opinions.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >From: "Venkatesh" <venky_nk@...>
                                        > >Reply-To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        > >To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        > >Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Daily Scrum vs. 30 minutes three times a
                                        > >week
                                        > >Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 13:35:30 -0000
                                        > >
                                        > >Even though I agree with importance of Daily scrum meetings, I have
                                        > >seen some teams adopting this to couple of times a week.
                                        > >I have seen this particular product development team working together
                                        > >from the last 3 years. Since they know the product very well and the
                                        > >product is pretty stable, they feel they need not meet daily. Their
                                        > >concern is not about "spending" 15 minutes of their time daily, but
                                        > >they don't see much value as things are pretty stable.
                                        > >
                                        > >Venkatesh
                                        > >http://agileworld.blogspot.com
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >--- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Levison"
                                        > ><mlevison@...> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I was just asked by someone on a non-Agile why the daily scrum would
                                        > > > be better than their current three times a week sit down meeting.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Embarrassingly my mind went blank. Here's the best I can do off the
                                        > > > top of my head
                                        > > > - 15 minutes saved every week.
                                        > > > - Team shares information vs. reporting to manager
                                        > > > - Creates a certain energy to help get the team going
                                        > > > - Held in front of the task board - helps the team to focus on
                                        > >their progress.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I feel like I'm missing something big - especially as to why the
                                        > >daily
                                        > > > scrum is better than a 30 minute sit down team meeting.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Tired in Ottawa
                                        > > > Mark Levison
                                        > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        > >--
                                        > > > Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                                        > > > Most Popular posts:
                                        > > > Aperture vs. Lightroom - best comparisons
                                        > > > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2007/02/aperture_vs_lig.html
                                        > > > Scrum in a Nutshell or 5 minutes to learn Scrum
                                        > > > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/11/scrum_in_a_nuts.html
                                        > > > Getting Things Done!!! Can't Keep Track of all the tasks you have to
                                        > > > do? Need a better Tool to Implement GTD?
                                        > > > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/12/getting_things_.html
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
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                                      • jay_conne
                                        Hi Hank, ... This matches what nurses in hospital units do as shifts change. They review the status, issues and incidents on each patient on the floor. They
                                        Message 19 of 20 , May 27, 2007
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                                          Hi Hank,
                                          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Hank Roark" <Hank.Roark@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I was presenting Agile and Scrum a few weeks back to an executive at
                                          > my company. The daily Scrum came up. He told me if I were to go into
                                          > one of our manufacturing plants that is implementing lean that I would
                                          > see daily, short, standing meetings at the beginning of each shift.
                                          > It is a chance for the prior shift to let the incoming shift of any
                                          > issues and/or changes to the process, the incoming shift to set goals
                                          > for the day and to organize the work, etc. Seems like we in software
                                          > can learn something from this.
                                          >
                                          > Cheers,
                                          > Hank

                                          This matches what nurses in hospital units do as shifts change. They
                                          review the status, issues and incidents on each patient on the floor.
                                          They have about a 30 minute shift overlap. This is a bad time for
                                          patients to need attention :-(.

                                          Jay
                                        • Nicholas Cancelliere
                                          What happens in this 30 minute 3 times a week sit-down meeting? Are they reporting to a manager? The purpose of the daily stand-up is for the team to plan
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Jun 4, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            What happens in this 30 minute 3 times a week sit-down meeting?  Are they reporting to a manager?

                                            The purpose of the daily stand-up is for the team to "plan the day."  It's their opportunity to re-sync with one another, find out where they are in terms of their sprint goals, and decide on what to do to continue progress towards these goals.  It's an opportunity to ask for help or alert the team to blocks or obstacles to those goals.

                                            The meeting is for the team, not for managers (which is why they're not to talk in the meeting and are considered "chickens.")

                                            In some of the companies I've worked in the I'd had to take a hard line with managers who insisted on speaking at stand-up meetings.  One CTO interrupt constantly or not talk for the 15 min period, only to detain the entire team afterwards and quiz them individually about what was talked about in the 15 minute Scrum.  This behavior defeated the purpose of the stand-up -- and it took some drastic actions to keep him quiet (it involved a rubber-band gun supplied by the team's tech lead).  

                                            Bottom line is the meeting isn't for managers, it's for the team. 


                                            Nicholas




                                            On May 23, 2007, at 2:06 PM, Mark Levison wrote:

                                            I was just asked by someone on a non-Agile why the daily scrum would
                                            be better than their current three times a week sit down meeting.

                                            Embarrassingly my mind went blank. Here's the best I can do off the
                                            top of my head
                                            - 15 minutes saved every week.
                                            - Team shares information vs. reporting to manager
                                            - Creates a certain energy to help get the team going
                                            - Held in front of the task board - helps the team to focus on their progress.

                                            I feel like I'm missing something big - especially as to why the daily
                                            scrum is better than a 30 minute sit down team meeting.

                                            Tired in Ottawa
                                            Mark Levison
                                            ----------------------------------------------------------
                                            Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                                            Most Popular posts:
                                            Aperture vs. Lightroom - best comparisons
                                            http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2007/02/aperture_vs_lig.html
                                            Scrum in a Nutshell or 5 minutes to learn Scrum
                                            http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/11/scrum_in_a_nuts.html
                                            Getting Things Done!!! Can't Keep Track of all the tasks you have to
                                            do? Need a better Tool to Implement GTD?
                                            http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2006/12/getting_things_.html


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