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Scrum Vs Prince2

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  • bc purushotham
    Hi All, Can you please tell me what is the difference and similarities between Scrum and Prince2. Is is possible to use Scrum in prince2 project. Thanks, p
    Message 1 of 20 , May 1, 2007
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      Hi All,

      Can you please tell me what is the difference and
      similarities between Scrum and Prince2.

      Is is possible to use Scrum in prince2 project.


      Thanks,
      p

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    • Ken Schwaber
      As I understand Prince2, it is the European flavor of the Project Management Institute. If this is true, there will be a conflict between Prince2, which will
      Message 2 of 20 , May 1, 2007
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        As I understand Prince2, it is the European flavor of the Project Management Institute. If this is true, there will be a conflict between Prince2, which will try to be prescriptive and definite, and Scrum which is empirical,

        Ken

         


        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bc purushotham
        Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 4:30 AM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [SPAM] [scrumdevelopment] Scrum Vs Prince2

         

        Hi All,

        Can you please tell me what is the difference and
        similarities between Scrum and Prince2.

        Is is possible to use Scrum in prince2 project.

        Thanks,
        p

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      • Mike Cohn
        Julian Harris s (great) blog has a very useful mapping between Scrum and Prince2. See: http://www.julianonsoftware.com/?cat=124 Regards, Mike Cohn Author:
        Message 3 of 20 , May 1, 2007
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          Julian Harris's (great) blog has a very useful mapping between Scrum and Prince2. See:


          Regards,
          Mike Cohn
          Author:
            Agile Estimating and Planning
            User Stories Applied
          www.mountaingoatsoftware.com


          From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bc purushotham
          Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 4:30 AM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [SPAM] [scrumdevelopment] Scrum Vs Prince2

           

          Hi All,

          Can you please tell me what is the difference and
          similarities between Scrum and Prince2.

          Is is possible to use Scrum in prince2 project.

          Thanks,
          p

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        • Nicholas Cancelliere
          Is it just me - or does anyone else have a problem with this statement: I find it particularly useful as Scrum is, at best, a skeleton that needs a lot of
          Message 4 of 20 , May 1, 2007
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            Is it just me - or does anyone else have a problem with this statement:

            "I find it particularly useful as Scrum is, at best, a skeleton that needs a lot of meat both inside, and in terms of topping and tailing a project."

            I wonder what he means by this.  


            Nicholas



            On May 1, 2007, at 3:29 AM, bc purushotham wrote:

            Hi All,

            Can you please tell me what is the difference and
            similarities between Scrum and Prince2.

            Is is possible to use Scrum in prince2 project.

            Thanks,
            p

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            http://mail.yahoo.com


          • Ken Schwaber
            His way of forcing the two together. The matrix that Mike referred to was not helpful, Ken _____ From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 20 , May 2, 2007
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              His way of forcing the two together. The matrix that Mike referred to was not helpful,

              Ken

               


              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nicholas Cancelliere
              Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 8:35 PM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [SPAM] Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum Vs Prince2

               

               

              Is it just me - or does anyone else have a problem with this statement:

               

              "I find it particularly useful as Scrum is, at best, a skeleton that needs a lot of meat both inside, and in terms of topping and tailing a project."

               

              I wonder what he means by this.

               

               

              Nicholas

               

               

               

              On May 1, 2007, at 3:29 AM, bc purushotham wrote:



              Hi All,

              Can you please tell me what is the difference and
              similarities between Scrum and Prince2.

              Is is possible to use Scrum in prince2 project.

              Thanks,
              p

              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              http://mail. yahoo.com

               

            • dnicolet99
              I don t know what *he* means by it, but I think it s correct to say that Scrum is intentionally lightweight and allows for any sort of iterative process to be
              Message 6 of 20 , May 2, 2007
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                I don't know what *he* means by it, but I think it's correct to say
                that Scrum is intentionally lightweight and allows for any sort of
                iterative process to be used along with it.

                It's significant that he writes, "at best." I think that gives away a
                bias on his part. I've noticed that sometimes people criticize Scrum
                because it omits methodological details; as I see it, that's a
                strength of Scrum, not a weakness. If someone is just looking for a
                project management cookbook, then they may find Scrum doesn't give
                them enough specific guidance for their needs.

                Dave

                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Nicholas Cancelliere
                <nickaustin74@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Is it just me - or does anyone else have a problem with this statement:
                >
                > "I find it particularly useful as Scrum is, at best, a skeleton that
                > needs a lot of meat both inside, and in terms of topping and tailing
                > a project."
                >
                > I wonder what he means by this.
                >
                >
                > Nicholas
                >
                >
                >
                > On May 1, 2007, at 3:29 AM, bc purushotham wrote:
                >
                > > Hi All,
                > >
                > > Can you please tell me what is the difference and
                > > similarities between Scrum and Prince2.
                > >
                > > Is is possible to use Scrum in prince2 project.
                > >
                > > Thanks,
                > > p
                > >
                > > __________________________________________________
                > > Do You Yahoo!?
                > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Ken Schwaber
                Dave, We specifically leave off the guidance or prescription to leave the people free and responsible for managing for value, Sprint by Sprint. We break the
                Message 7 of 20 , May 2, 2007
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                  Dave,

                  We specifically leave off the guidance or prescription to leave the people free and responsible for managing for value, Sprint by Sprint. We break the management role into three parts:

                  1. The team is responsible for managing itself.
                  2. The ScrumMaster is responsible for managing the Process
                  3. The Product Owner is responsible for managing the Product Backlog, or “What” to maximize value. The PO tells the team what to do, the team figures out how to do it.

                   

                  In the matrix, you give a lot of responsibility to the ScrumMaster that they don’t own. They aren’t a replacement project manager. They are simply a process manager and change agent.

                   

                  Scrum doesn’t leave out project management methodological details to have them filled in by other methodologies. It relies on the above three groups to fill them in based on their knowledge, the circumstances, and their intelligence. Scrum relies on a feedback loop for them to improve, not external directions.

                   

                  Ken

                   


                  From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dnicolet99
                  Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 11:12 AM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [SPAM] [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum Vs Prince2

                   

                  I don't know what *he* means by it, but I think it's correct to say
                  that Scrum is intentionally lightweight and allows for any sort of
                  iterative process to be used along with it.

                  It's significant that he writes, "at best." I think that gives away a
                  bias on his part. I've noticed that sometimes people criticize Scrum
                  because it omits methodological details; as I see it, that's a
                  strength of Scrum, not a weakness. If someone is just looking for a
                  project management cookbook, then they may find Scrum doesn't give
                  them enough specific guidance for their needs.

                  Dave

                  --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Nicholas Cancelliere
                  <nickaustin74@ ...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > Is it just me - or does anyone else have a problem with this statement:
                  >
                  > "I find it particularly useful as Scrum is, at best, a skeleton that
                  > needs a lot of meat both inside, and in terms of topping and tailing
                  > a project."
                  >
                  > I wonder what he means by this.
                  >
                  >
                  > Nicholas
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On May 1, 2007, at 3:29 AM, bc purushotham wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hi All,
                  > >
                  > > Can you please tell me what is the difference and
                  > > similarities between Scrum and Prince2.
                  > >
                  > > Is is possible to use Scrum in prince2 project.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks,
                  > > p
                  > >
                  > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                  > > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  > > http://mail. yahoo.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  >

                • dnicolet99
                  Ken, Thanks for the explanation. ... people ... break the ... that they ... Well, it isn t my matrix. I do think it reflects reality in many cases. It s not
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 2, 2007
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                    Ken,

                    Thanks for the explanation.


                    > We specifically leave off the guidance or prescription to leave the
                    people
                    > free and responsible for managing for value, Sprint by Sprint. We
                    break the
                    > management role into three parts:
                    >
                    > 1. The team is responsible for managing itself.
                    > 2. The ScrumMaster is responsible for managing the Process
                    > 3. The Product Owner is responsible for managing the Product Backlog,
                    > or "What" to maximize value. The PO tells the team what to do, the team
                    > figures out how to do it.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In the matrix, you give a lot of responsibility to the ScrumMaster
                    that they
                    > don't own. They aren't a replacement project manager. They are simply a
                    > process manager and change agent.

                    Well, it isn't my matrix. I do think it reflects reality in many
                    cases. It's not always possible to act strictly as a process manager
                    and change agent because in many cases management doesn't recognize
                    the need for that role as distinct from the PM role. Even though
                    that's less than ideal, when we have an opportunity to effect positive
                    change it seems to me we ought to try.



                    >
                    > Scrum doesn't leave out project management methodological details to
                    have
                    > them filled in by other methodologies. It relies on the above three
                    groups
                    > to fill them in based on their knowledge, the circumstances, and their
                    > intelligence. Scrum relies on a feedback loop for them to improve, not
                    > external directions.

                    Thanks for the clarification. I suspect many people miss that
                    particular point. Maybe that's why some people say Scrum is
                    incomplete. It demands a certain level of maturity on the part of team
                    members and management. They may be unaccustomed to that, since
                    conventional processes are prescriptive.

                    Dave
                  • Ken Schwaber
                    It does require a certain level of maturity. If it isn t there, it exposes the consequences so the shortfalls can be addressed based on the severity of
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 2, 2007
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                      It does require a certain level of maturity. If it isn’t there, it exposes the consequences so the shortfalls can be addressed based on the severity of consequences. The traditional PM approach says, “here it is, do it all and you’ll be fine.” Scrum says, “do it, and you’ll soon know where you are really in trouble so you can specifically address those areas first.”

                      Best wishes,  Dave,

                       

                      Ken

                       


                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dnicolet99
                      Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 2:07 PM
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum Vs Prince2

                       

                      Ken,

                      Thanks for the explanation.

                      > We specifically leave off the guidance or prescription to leave the
                      people
                      > free and responsible for managing for value, Sprint by Sprint. We
                      break the
                      > management role into three parts:
                      >
                      > 1. The team is responsible for managing itself.
                      > 2. The ScrumMaster is responsible for managing the Process
                      > 3. The Product Owner is responsible for managing the Product Backlog,
                      > or "What" to maximize value. The PO
                      tells the team what to do, the team
                      > figures out how to do it.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > In the matrix, you give a lot of responsibility to the ScrumMaster
                      that they
                      > don't own. They aren't a replacement project manager. They are simply a
                      > process manager and change agent.

                      Well, it isn't my matrix. I do think it reflects reality in many
                      cases. It's not always possible to act strictly as a process manager
                      and change agent because in many cases management doesn't recognize
                      the need for that role as distinct from the PM role. Even though
                      that's less than ideal, when we have an opportunity to effect positive
                      change it seems to me we ought to try.

                      >
                      > Scrum doesn't leave out project management methodological details to
                      have
                      > them filled in by other methodologies. It relies on the above three
                      groups
                      > to fill them in based on their knowledge, the circumstances, and their
                      > intelligence. Scrum relies on a feedback loop for them to improve, not
                      > external directions.

                      Thanks for the clarification. I suspect many people miss that
                      particular point. Maybe that's why some people say Scrum is
                      incomplete. It demands a certain level of maturity on the part of team
                      members and management. They may be unaccustomed to that, since
                      conventional processes are prescriptive.

                      Dave

                    • srinivas chillara
                      ... Agreed. However, Don t you think a projecgt management cookbook, or guide etc, could be useful!?! (here I am not criticising what you ve written below, I m
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 2, 2007
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                        > I've noticed that sometimes people
                        > criticize Scrum
                        > because it omits methodological details; as I see
                        > it, that's a
                        > strength of Scrum, not a weakness.

                        Agreed.

                        However, Don't you think a projecgt management
                        cookbook, or guide etc, could be useful!?!
                        (here I am not criticising what you've written below,
                        I'm just wondering).
                        >If someone is
                        > just looking for a
                        > project management cookbook, then they may find
                        > Scrum doesn't give
                        > them enough specific guidance for their needs.



                        The traditional C-and-C means of executing projects
                        (in an IT setting) must be having something in value
                        for us. Maynot be the general Command and control
                        approach, but some aspects. Maybe the way QC is set up
                        independantly, more likely risk management, etc.


                        Regards
                        Cheenie


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                      • David H.
                        ... It in deed does, even though that only happens on a psychological level. C&C structures allows to perceive an illusion of control. We like to be in
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 3, 2007
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                          > The traditional C-and-C means of executing projects
                          > (in an IT setting) must be having something in value
                          > for us. Maynot be the general Command and control
                          > approach, but some aspects. Maybe the way QC is set up
                          > independantly, more likely risk management, etc.
                          >
                          It in deed does, even though that only happens on a psychological
                          level. C&C structures allows to perceive an illusion of control. We
                          like to be in control, it makes us feel safe and, you guessed it, in
                          control. Unfortunately that does not work for complex systems, still
                          be try to believe that we can command and control those environment,
                          because operating in a more free and less controlled manner makes us
                          feel uneasy.

                          But I could not explain this better than the many blogs and books that
                          have been written on this topic already.




                          --
                          Sent from gmail so do not trust this communication.
                          Do not send me sensitive information here, ask for my none-gmail accounts.

                          "Therefore the considerations of the intelligent always include both
                          benefit and harm." - Sun Tzu
                        • dnicolet99
                          Hi Cheenie, Philosophically, I agree with Ken on this. I don t think the command-and-control approach works very well at all. I think a process cookbook can
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 3, 2007
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                            Hi Cheenie,

                            Philosophically, I agree with Ken on this. I don't think the
                            command-and-control approach works very well at all. I think a process
                            cookbook can easily become a crutch.

                            When a process cookbook is useful, it's only as a fallback position
                            for organizations that lack the maturity to work with a lightweight
                            framework like Scrum. Unfortunately, at the moment most organizations
                            fall into that category.

                            I hesitate to call a process cookbook "useful," because the choice of
                            words might be understood to mean I think it's "just as good." Rather
                            than "useful," I might say a process cookbook is "better than
                            nothing," or perhaps that it can be a pragmatic interim approach along
                            the way toward agility, provided people don't become too comfortable
                            with it and therefore cease to pursue continuous improvement.

                            When you say command-and-control must have something useful for us, I
                            wonder if it is an assumption based on the fact that things have been
                            done that way for such a long time. It's hard to accept the idea that
                            very smart people have been working in a suboptimal way, on purpose,
                            for decades on end.

                            Yet the Chaos Report for 1994, prior to widespread acceptance of Scrum
                            and other methods we now call "agile," indicates traditional-style IT
                            projects enjoyed a success rate under 20%. It determined most IT
                            projects were "challenged," which is a politically correct way to say
                            they did not deliver the expected value and did not come in on
                            schedule or on budget. That's where command-and-control will take you.

                            Separation of QC or QA isn't an aspect of command-and-control, it's
                            just a way of organizing the work. I'm not so sure QC or QA should be
                            as separate as it often is, anyway. Most of the work QC/QA specialists
                            do can be integrated directly into the development process and testers
                            can develop professionally along the lines of generalizing
                            specialists, just as developers are doing.

                            Risk management is something that must be done on all projects, but I
                            don't think it is connected with command-and-control vs agile
                            management. It's just part of the work to be done.

                            Dave

                            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, srinivas chillara
                            <ceezone@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > I've noticed that sometimes people
                            > > criticize Scrum
                            > > because it omits methodological details; as I see
                            > > it, that's a
                            > > strength of Scrum, not a weakness.
                            >
                            > Agreed.
                            >
                            > However, Don't you think a projecgt management
                            > cookbook, or guide etc, could be useful!?!
                            > (here I am not criticising what you've written below,
                            > I'm just wondering).
                            > >If someone is
                            > > just looking for a
                            > > project management cookbook, then they may find
                            > > Scrum doesn't give
                            > > them enough specific guidance for their needs.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > The traditional C-and-C means of executing projects
                            > (in an IT setting) must be having something in value
                            > for us. Maynot be the general Command and control
                            > approach, but some aspects. Maybe the way QC is set up
                            > independantly, more likely risk management, etc.
                            >
                            >
                            > Regards
                            > Cheenie
                            >
                            >
                            > Send a FREE SMS to your friend's mobile from Yahoo! Messenger.
                            Get it now at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/
                            >
                          • Ken Schwaber
                            Absolutely . the best guides are all of the books that have been published over the years, such as risk management. The moment it becomes a guide it becomes
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 3, 2007
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                              Absolutely … the best guides are all of the books that have been published over the years, such as risk management. The moment it becomes a guide it becomes stepwise and restrictive, in my experience.

                              Ken

                               


                              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of srinivas chillara
                              Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 12:37 AM
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum Vs Prince2

                               

                              > I've noticed that sometimes people

                              > criticize Scrum
                              > because it omits methodological details; as I see
                              > it, that's a
                              > strength of Scrum, not a weakness.

                              Agreed.

                              However, Don't you think a projecgt management
                              cookbook, or guide etc, could be useful!?!
                              (here I am not criticising what you've written below,
                              I'm just wondering).
                              >If someone is
                              > just looking for a
                              > project management cookbook, then they may find
                              > Scrum doesn't give
                              > them enough specific guidance for their needs.

                              The traditional C-and-C means of executing projects
                              (in an IT setting) must be having something in value
                              for us. Maynot be the general Command and control
                              approach, but some aspects. Maybe the way QC is set up
                              independantly, more likely risk management, etc.

                              Regards
                              Cheenie

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                            • srinivas chillara
                              ... Aha! But such guide, in hands of sublime experts, like yours truly, don t become restrictive. No one can say I am not cheeky. But seriously, I see what you
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 7, 2007
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                                > The moment
                                > it becomes a guide it
                                > becomes stepwise and restrictive, in my experience.


                                Aha! But such guide, in hands of sublime experts, like
                                yours truly, don't become restrictive. No one can say
                                I am not cheeky.

                                But seriously, I see what you are saying, once it is
                                codified, it becomes restrictive, except for people
                                who have participated in it's codification, or maybe
                                the very few who truly "get it".

                                Cheenie




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                              • srinivas chillara
                                ... When you seperate things so clearly, it is difficult to disagree. I meant that ideas which might have come up, or/and matured during the development of C-C
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 7, 2007
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                                  >
                                  > Separation of QC or QA isn't an aspect of
                                  > command-and-control, it's
                                  > just a way of organizing the work. I'm not so sure
                                  > QC or QA should be
                                  > as separate as it often is, anyway. Most of the work
                                  > QC/QA specialists
                                  > do can be integrated directly into the development
                                  > process and testers
                                  > can develop professionally along the lines of
                                  > generalizing
                                  > specialists, just as developers are doing.
                                  >
                                  > Risk management is something that must be done on
                                  > all projects, but I
                                  > don't think it is connected with command-and-control
                                  > vs agile
                                  > management. It's just part of the work to be done.

                                  When you seperate things so clearly, it is difficult
                                  to disagree.
                                  I meant that ideas which might have come up, or/and
                                  matured during the development of C-C methodologies or
                                  during those days, have value. Like "Risk mgmt" etc.

                                  About seperation of QA/QC and dev, yes we can argue
                                  for a while over that, but I'll leave it for another
                                  thread.
                                  In any case I found what you've written useful (in a
                                  positive sense).

                                  cheers
                                  Cheenie




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                                • srinivas chillara
                                  ... Agreed, anyway I usually don t see things as Agile.vs.something or the other. Hello Dave, On second thoughts, let s not call it a cookbook but practice
                                  Message 16 of 20 , May 7, 2007
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                                    > Risk management is something that must be done on
                                    > all projects, but I
                                    > don't think it is connected with command-and-control
                                    > vs agile
                                    > management. It's just part of the work to be done.
                                    > Dave

                                    Agreed, anyway I usually don't see things as
                                    Agile.vs.something or the other.


                                    Hello Dave,
                                    On second thoughts, let's not call it a "cookbook" but
                                    "practice guideline".
                                    And now have "risk mgmt", perhaps we can use it in the
                                    context of Scrum?

                                    This is situation that I've been through sometime ago.
                                    I was a coach for a team (six good men) implementing
                                    Scrum for the first time. We planned the first sprint
                                    (4 week), and things went well for about a week. It
                                    was important to show good progress to the higher
                                    mgmt.
                                    After about a week, the PO pushed off on leave
                                    (holiday) for 2 weeks. Then just before he returned
                                    the Scrum master took a week off, and so did another
                                    team member a bit earlier. Ofcourse this impacted the
                                    performance of the team for the sprint. They did quite
                                    OK. However these exptended holidays of 3 people
                                    during the same sprint was a nasty surprise. Actually
                                    these people knew they were off on leave, jsut no one
                                    thought it important enought to announce! (I know
                                    amazing) These leaves were not taken into account
                                    during the sprint planning. I think had we done a
                                    quick risk assessment (ie rsk mgmt) we would have
                                    planned better.


                                    Now I am writing a small (one or two pager) Scrum
                                    implemnetation guide for the company, so they can
                                    think of things to cover while they run their sprint.
                                    Like, all team member udate on significant leaves to
                                    they are about to be taken that month. I am calling
                                    this a "Scrum-running Guide"
                                    What's your opinion on this. Should I circulate such a
                                    guide for the benifit of the company. To a wider
                                    public, or is it not such a good idea? Will this make
                                    Scrum more codified/prescriprive/"cookbookish"!?!

                                    yours in doubt
                                    Cheenie





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                                  • dnicolet99
                                    ... You re right to say the problem is that the leave was not taken into consideration during sprint planning. However, it is not a question of risk
                                    Message 17 of 20 , May 8, 2007
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                                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, srinivas chillara
                                      <ceezone@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > However these exptended holidays of 3 people
                                      > during the same sprint was a nasty surprise. Actually
                                      > these people knew they were off on leave, jsut no one
                                      > thought it important enought to announce! (I know
                                      > amazing) These leaves were not taken into account
                                      > during the sprint planning. I think had we done a
                                      > quick risk assessment (ie rsk mgmt) we would have
                                      > planned better.

                                      You're right to say the problem is that the leave was not taken into
                                      consideration during sprint planning. However, it is not a question of
                                      risk management. It is not a business risk for employees to take
                                      leave. It's normal.

                                      What I've seen work well is for each team member to commit to a
                                      certain number of hours for the project as part of sprint planning. If
                                      we're working 40 hour weeks and we have 4 week sprints, then at most I
                                      can devote 160 hours to the project. If I'm planning 2 weeks of leave,
                                      then I must commit to 80 hours instead. That way, when the stories are
                                      sized and added to the sprint, the team won't overcommit.

                                      >
                                      > Now I am writing a small (one or two pager) Scrum
                                      > implemnetation guide for the company, so they can
                                      > think of things to cover while they run their sprint.
                                      > Like, all team member udate on significant leaves to
                                      > they are about to be taken that month. I am calling
                                      > this a "Scrum-running Guide"
                                      > What's your opinion on this. Should I circulate such a
                                      > guide for the benifit of the company. To a wider
                                      > public, or is it not such a good idea? Will this make
                                      > Scrum more codified/prescriprive/"cookbookish"!?!

                                      It depends. If you try to include everything you can imagine and
                                      everything you've read about or heard about, then the guide will be
                                      justly ignored.

                                      If you include lessons learned in context, such as the problem of the
                                      "surprise" leave, then it will be relevant to your environment and
                                      people will find it helpful.

                                      I would also suggest that you make it a "living" document and update
                                      it after each retrospective or after "surprise" lessons are learned. I
                                      would further suggest that you never let the guide grow beyond one
                                      printed page in length. When you find you are just about to add an
                                      item that pushes the length over the one page limit, review the
                                      contents and look for items that can be removed. This will help ensure
                                      the guide remains relevant and useful while making it possible to post
                                      a copy on the wall of team rooms.

                                      >
                                      > yours in doubt
                                      > Cheenie
                                      >

                                      Yours doubtlessly,
                                      Dave
                                    • Nicholas Cancelliere
                                      Anything that is published, and can have a finger pointed at it, becomes this way. Look it says right here on page 33 that you must do step X before step
                                      Message 18 of 20 , May 9, 2007
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                                        Anything that is "published," and can have a finger pointed at it, becomes this way.  "Look it says right here on page 33 that you must do step X before step Y."  Even though that might not work for your organization -- you'll get people who are more comfortable with the scapegoat.
                                         
                                        People stop thinking for themselves and instead look for something to tell them the solution.  Then accountability is rationalized away because, well -- "I was just doing what it says to in the book for this situation!"
                                         
                                        ...religion comes to mind when I think of this concept.
                                         
                                        Nicholas


                                         
                                        On 5/3/07, Ken Schwaber <ken.schwaber@...> wrote:

                                        Absolutely … the best guides are all of the books that have been published over the years, such as risk management. The moment it becomes a guide it becomes stepwise and restrictive, in my experience.

                                        Ken

                                         


                                        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of srinivas chillara
                                        Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 12:37 AM
                                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum Vs Prince2

                                         

                                        > I've noticed that sometimes people
                                        > criticize Scrum
                                        > because it omits methodological details; as I see
                                        > it, that's a
                                        > strength of Scrum, not a weakness.

                                        Agreed.

                                        However, Don't you think a projecgt management
                                        cookbook, or guide etc, could be useful!?!
                                        (here I am not criticising what you've written below,
                                        I'm just wondering).
                                        >If someone is
                                        > just looking for a
                                        > project management cookbook, then they may find
                                        > Scrum doesn't give
                                        > them enough specific guidance for their needs.

                                        The traditional C-and-C means of executing projects
                                        (in an IT setting) must be having something in value
                                        for us. Maynot be the general Command and control
                                        approach, but some aspects. Maybe the way QC is set up
                                        independantly, more likely risk management, etc.

                                        Regards
                                        Cheenie

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                                        --
                                        Nicholas Cancelliere, Austin TX
                                        "The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out." -Gildor, Fellowship of the Ring (Lord of the Rings)
                                      • Nicholas Cancelliere
                                        When I read this thread I think of the Bible. There are people who interpret it literally and there are people who read it and come away with base concepts.
                                        Message 19 of 20 , May 9, 2007
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                                          When I read this thread I think of the Bible.  There are people who interpret it literally and there are people who read it and come away with base concepts.  I think with any written "code" of anything you have to interpret the intent or spirit of the thing described and go from there.
                                           
                                          Why do we have judges if we just live exactly by the letter of the law?  They are there to help interpret the law - to decide on how to apply the concept it embodies to specific situations.  This concept applies to anything really -- think for yourself.
                                           
                                          As a good Scrummaster, I think it is our job to enable everyone to their best thinking.  I don't want to be some cult leader where everyone submits to my interpretation of Scrum.  Instead I present concepts and ideas embodied by Scrum and Agile -- and then let the team run with it. 
                                           
                                          The way we recognize a process as Scrum is by certain core practices, which we can't deviate from -- if we do then we arn't doing Scrum.   Is this bad?  Not necessarily ... if it works for the team.  I believe though that history is a great teacher, and there is no need to reinvent the wheel, and most "new" things a team dreams up actually have already been done and tried.  Stick with what historically has worked and then make adjustments based on your needs.
                                           
                                          I don't believe there is a "cookbook" approach.  In the past two years I've worked intimately with 4 different teams on implenting Scrum, and no two have been alike enough that I could "cookie cutter" an approach to adoption.
                                           
                                          Nicholas


                                           
                                          On 5/7/07, srinivas chillara <ceezone@...> wrote:

                                          > The moment
                                          > it becomes a guide it
                                          > becomes stepwise and restrictive, in my experience.


                                          Aha! But such guide, in hands of sublime experts, like
                                          yours truly, don't become restrictive. No one can say
                                          I am not cheeky.

                                          But seriously, I see what you are saying, once it is
                                          codified, it becomes restrictive, except for people
                                          who have participated in it's codification, or maybe
                                          the very few who truly "get it".

                                          Cheenie


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                                          --
                                          Nicholas Cancelliere, Austin TX
                                          "The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out." -Gildor, Fellowship of the Ring (Lord of the Rings)
                                        • srinivas chillara
                                          ... Thanks very much. I agree very much with limiting guides to a page or two. Most of the process definitions I suggest are of that length. Yours
                                          Message 20 of 20 , May 9, 2007
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                                            > I would also suggest that you make it a "living"
                                            > document and update
                                            > it after each retrospective or after "surprise"
                                            > lessons are learned. I
                                            > would further suggest that you never let the guide
                                            > grow beyond one
                                            > printed page in length. When you find you are just
                                            > about to add an
                                            > item that pushes the length over the one page limit,
                                            > review the
                                            > contents and look for items that can be removed.
                                            > This will help ensure
                                            > the guide remains relevant and useful while making
                                            > it possible to post
                                            > a copy on the wall of team rooms.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > > yours in doubt
                                            > > Cheenie
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > Yours doubtlessly,
                                            > Dave

                                            Thanks very much. I agree very much with limiting
                                            guides to a page or two. Most of the process
                                            definitions I suggest are of that length.

                                            Yours no-longer-in-doubt
                                            Cheenie




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