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Process Same As Methodology./Methods..?

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  • jawwad_33
    I have seen definition of process and methodolgy.But its seems to be same to me.Can any body please explain difference.And what is difference between
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 29, 2003
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      I have seen definition of process and methodolgy.But its seems to be
      same to me.Can any body please explain difference.And what is
      difference between methodologies and methods.
      Thanks In Advance.
    • David Anderson
      Methodology is the science (or study) of methods. The word methodology has been widely misused in software when the word method should have been used. For
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 29, 2003
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        Methodology is the science (or study) of methods. The
        word "methodology" has been widely misused in software when the
        word "method" should have been used.

        For the purposes of software lifecycle development - the
        terms "method" and "process" are effectively synonymous. There is an
        argument that "method" might be more accurately applied to craft and
        that "process" is more accurately applied to a science or a
        production system. I don't feel it is worth trying to split those
        hairs.

        Regards,

        David


        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "jawwad_33"
        <jawwad_33@y...> wrote:
        > I have seen definition of process and methodolgy.But its seems to
        be
        > same to me.Can any body please explain difference.And what is
        > difference between methodologies and methods.
        > Thanks In Advance.
      • neil_e_martin2003
        David, A short note to say I m delighted to hear you say this - I thought for a while that I was the only one! Best Regards Neil
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 30, 2003
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          David,

          A short note to say I'm delighted to hear you say this - I thought
          for a while that I was the only one!

          Best Regards
          Neil

          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "David Anderson"
          <netherby_uk@y...> wrote:
          > Methodology is the science (or study) of methods. The
          > word "methodology" has been widely misused in software when the
          > word "method" should have been used.
          >
        • Maurizio Tripi
          ... all these terms have different meanings in the context of software engineering, but sometimes are misused. I ll try to give some definitions: -Process: an
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 30, 2003
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            jawwad_33 wrote:

            > I have seen definition of process and methodolgy.But its seems to be
            > same to me.Can any body please explain difference.And what is
            > difference between methodologies and methods.
            >
            all these terms have different meanings in the context of software
            engineering, but sometimes are
            misused. I'll try to give some definitions:

            -Process: an ordered sequence of activities composed of tasks executed
            by workers (roles). This sequence not need
            to be fixed and defined but you can define appropriate rules
            (preconditions, entry criteria, order, etc.) to choose
            the next (one or more) activity/ies.

            -Method: a method is composed of a process, a set of techniques
            (pattern, analysis, design, interviewing, test, techniques etc.), a
            language (modeling languages) with which you work applying the method,
            roles whom execute tasks, artifact produced, and so on.

            -Methodology can have two meanings: the science of methods or a set of
            (body) correlated methods.
            The latter has been widely used in SE. You should think that 20 years
            ago a methodology for the whole software life cycle were composed of
            tens of method, for example: a method for data analysis and design, a
            completely different set of methods for function analysis and design,
            another method for requirements engineering, and so on for test,
            implementation, documentation, etc ; all these methods with different
            techniques, modeling languages and activities/processes. Today sometimes
            people use methodology instead of method for this reason I think, even
            thought today a lot of method has been unified thank to OO and a general
            advancement of SE.

            I prefer to use method when we define its elements from scratch or by
            enlargement of a core method. Instead I use methodology when it has been
            composed of a set of methods separately defined.

            Regards,
            Maurizio
          • Ron Jeffries
            ... I wonder whether there is a lesson here: When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to mean,
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 30, 2003
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              On Thursday, October 30, 2003, at 12:38:16 AM, neil_e_martin2003 wrote:

              > A short note to say I'm delighted to hear you say this - I thought
              > for a while that I was the only one!

              > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "David Anderson"
              > <netherby_uk@y...> wrote:
              >> Methodology is the science (or study) of methods. The
              >> word "methodology" has been widely misused in software when the
              >> word "method" should have been used.

              I wonder whether there is a lesson here:

              'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it
              means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'
              -- Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass.

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              For me, XP ain't out there, it's in here. -- Bill Caputo
            • jawwad_33
              This answer is really clearly explained.Thanks A lot for u people. ... be ... executed ... a ... method, ... of ... years ... of ... a ... design, ...
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 30, 2003
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                This answer is really clearly explained.Thanks A lot for u people.

                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Maurizio Tripi <mtripi@a...>
                wrote:
                > jawwad_33 wrote:
                >
                > > I have seen definition of process and methodolgy.But its seems to
                be
                > > same to me.Can any body please explain difference.And what is
                > > difference between methodologies and methods.
                > >
                > all these terms have different meanings in the context of software
                > engineering, but sometimes are
                > misused. I'll try to give some definitions:
                >
                > -Process: an ordered sequence of activities composed of tasks
                executed
                > by workers (roles). This sequence not need
                > to be fixed and defined but you can define appropriate rules
                > (preconditions, entry criteria, order, etc.) to choose
                > the next (one or more) activity/ies.
                >
                > -Method: a method is composed of a process, a set of techniques
                > (pattern, analysis, design, interviewing, test, techniques etc.),
                a
                > language (modeling languages) with which you work applying the
                method,
                > roles whom execute tasks, artifact produced, and so on.
                >
                > -Methodology can have two meanings: the science of methods or a set
                of
                > (body) correlated methods.
                > The latter has been widely used in SE. You should think that 20
                years
                > ago a methodology for the whole software life cycle were composed
                of
                > tens of method, for example: a method for data analysis and design,
                a
                > completely different set of methods for function analysis and
                design,
                > another method for requirements engineering, and so on for test,
                > implementation, documentation, etc ; all these methods with
                different
                > techniques, modeling languages and activities/processes. Today
                sometimes
                > people use methodology instead of method for this reason I think,
                even
                > thought today a lot of method has been unified thank to OO and a
                general
                > advancement of SE.
                >
                > I prefer to use method when we define its elements from scratch or
                by
                > enlargement of a core method. Instead I use methodology when it has
                been
                > composed of a set of methods separately defined.
                >
                > Regards,
                > Maurizio
              • Mike Beedle
                Marizio: Great definitions. I only have one qualm. A method in my understanding and practice does not need a process -- as per your definition. A method can
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 30, 2003
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                  Message
                  Marizio:
                   
                  Great definitions.
                   
                  I only have one qualm.
                   
                  A method in my understanding and practice does not need a process -- as per your definition.
                   
                  A method can simply be a generative set of practices and rules that when applied
                  together can give rise to an **emergent** process -- not an ordered sequence of activities.
                   
                  In other words, Scrum is a declarative method, in the sense that it generates whatever
                  process is needed by self-organization through the application of rules and practices.
                   
                  As opposed to prescriptive methods that try to tell you a *sequence of steps* to complete
                  a process,
                   
                  - Mike

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Maurizio Tripi [mailto:mtripi@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 3:33 AM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Process Same As Methodology./Methods..?

                  jawwad_33 wrote:

                  > I
                  have seen definition of process and methodolgy.But its seems to be
                  > same
                  to me.Can any body please explain difference.And what is
                  > difference
                  between methodologies and methods.
                  >
                  all these terms have different meanings in the context of software
                  engineering, but sometimes are
                  misused. I'll try to give some definitions:

                  -Process: an ordered  sequence of activities composed of tasks executed
                  by workers (roles). This sequence not need
                  to be fixed and defined but you can define appropriate rules
                  (preconditions, entry criteria, order, etc.) to choose
                  the next (one or more) activity/ies.

                  -Method: a method is composed of a process, a set of techniques
                  (pattern, analysis, design, interviewing, test, techniques etc.), a 
                  language (modeling languages) with which you work applying the method,
                  roles whom execute tasks, artifact produced, and so on.

                  -Methodology can have two meanings: the science of methods or a set of
                  (body) correlated methods.
                  The latter has been widely used in SE. You should think that 20 years
                  ago a methodology for the whole software life cycle were composed of
                  tens of method, for example: a method for data analysis and design, a
                  completely different set of methods for function analysis and design,
                  another method for requirements engineering, and so on for test,
                  implementation, documentation, etc ; all these methods with different
                  techniques, modeling languages and activities/processes. Today sometimes
                  people use methodology instead of method for this reason I think, even
                  thought today a lot of method has been unified thank to OO and a general
                  advancement of SE.

                  I prefer to use method when we define its elements from scratch or by
                  enlargement of a core method. Instead I use methodology when it has been
                  composed of a set of  methods separately defined.

                  Regards,
                  Maurizio




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                • Maurizio Tripi
                  Mike, you re right! I like to keep the definition of method as Process + techs + languages ; and to enlarge the definition of process by including emergent
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 30, 2003
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                    Mike,
                    you're right!
                    I like to keep the definition of method as "Process + techs + languages"; and to enlarge the definition of
                    process by including emergent and defined processes.
                    Infact I tried to give a general definition of process, when I wrote:
                    "This sequence not need to be fixed and defined but you can define *appropriate rules*
                    (preconditions, entry criteria, order, etc.)..."

                    I meant *some* way to choose an activity. Within a defined proces it can be
                    a rule well defined (an ordered list), in agile methods it can be a *local* rule (or more than one of course)that in the interaction with the environment (team, context , sprint status, customer, ...) generate the next activities.

                    -Maurizio

                    Mike Beedle wrote:
                    Message
                     
                    A method in my understanding and practice does not need a process -- as per your definition.
                     
                    A method can simply be a generative set of practices and rules that when applied
                    together can give rise to an **emergent** process -- not an ordered sequence of activities.
                     
                    In other words, Scrum is a declarative method, in the sense that it generates whatever
                    process is needed by self-organization through the application of rules and practices.
                     
                    As opposed to prescriptive methods that try to tell you a *sequence of steps* to complete
                    a process,
                     
                    - Mike

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Maurizio Tripi [mailto:mtripi@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 3:33 AM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Process Same As Methodology./Methods..?

                    jawwad_33 wrote:

                    > I have seen definition of process and methodolgy.But its seems to be
                    > same to me.Can any body please explain difference.And what is
                    > difference between methodologies and methods.
                    >
                    all these terms have different meanings in the context of software
                    engineering, but sometimes are
                    misused. I'll try to give some definitions:

                    -Process: an ordered  sequence of activities composed of tasks executed
                    by workers (roles). This sequence not need
                    to be fixed and defined but you can define appropriate rules
                    (preconditions, entry criteria, order, etc.) to choose
                    the next (one or more) activity/ies.

                    -Method: a method is composed of a process, a set of techniques
                    (pattern, analysis, design, interviewing, test, techniques etc.), a 
                    language (modeling languages) with which you work applying the method,
                    roles whom execute tasks, artifact produced, and so on.

                    -Methodology can have two meanings: the science of methods or a set of
                    (body) correlated methods.
                    The latter has been widely used in SE. You should think that 20 years
                    ago a methodology for the whole software life cycle were composed of
                    tens of method, for example: a method for data analysis and design, a
                    completely different set of methods for function analysis and design,
                    another method for requirements engineering, and so on for test,
                    implementation, documentation, etc ; all these methods with different
                    techniques, modeling languages and activities/processes. Today sometimes
                    people use methodology instead of method for this reason I think, even
                    thought today a lot of method has been unified thank to OO and a general
                    advancement of SE.

                    I prefer to use method when we define its elements from scratch or by
                    enlargement of a core method. Instead I use methodology when it has been
                    composed of a set of  methods separately defined.

                    Regards,
                    Maurizio




                    To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                    To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
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                  • Bishop, Murray
                    ... You and David are in company with the third edition of The New Elizabethan Reference Dictionary - an up-to-date vocabulary of the language as spoken and
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 2, 2003
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                      neil_e_martin2003 writes:

                      > David,
                      >
                      > A short note to say I'm delighted to hear you say this - I thought
                      > for a while that I was the only one!
                      >
                      > Best Regards
                      > Neil

                      You and David are in company with the third edition of The New Elizabethan
                      Reference Dictionary - "an up-to-date vocabulary of the language as spoken
                      and written in the mid-twentieth century", which contains:

                      method [F. methode, L. methodus, Gr. Methodos (METH, hodos, way)], n. Mode
                      of procedure, way or order of doing; an orderly, systematic, or logical
                      arrangement; orderliness, system; a system or the basis of a system of
                      classification.

                      methodology, n. (Log.) The branch of logic dealing with the methods of
                      accurate thinking.

                      > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "David Anderson"
                      > <netherby_uk@y...> wrote:
                      > > Methodology is the science (or study) of methods. The
                      > > word "methodology" has been widely misused in software when the
                      > > word "method" should have been used.
                      > >

                      Best,
                      Murray
                    • Mike Beedle
                      ... Murray: I was told those same definitions by Ed Berard circa 1989. Even back then Ed was in disbelief of how abused the word methodology was within the
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 5, 2003
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                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Bishop, Murray"
                        > You and David are in company with the third edition of The
                        > New Elizabethan Reference Dictionary - "an up-to-date vocabulary
                        > of the language as spoken and written in the mid-twentieth
                        > century", which contains:
                        >
                        > method [F. methode, L. methodus, Gr. Methodos (METH, hodos, way)],
                        > n. Mode of procedure, way or order of doing; an orderly,
                        > systematic, or logical arrangement; orderliness, system; a system
                        > or the basis of a system of classification.
                        >
                        > methodology, n. (Log.) The branch of logic dealing with the methods
                        > of accurate thinking.

                        Murray:

                        I was told those same definitions by Ed Berard circa 1989. Even back
                        then Ed was in disbelief of how abused the word "methodology" was
                        within the software context.

                        Clearly, we have been in some kind of "methodological"
                        "dark ages" that started sometime after the word started to be abused
                        in the software world almost 30 years ago -- starting with the
                        abuse of the word,

                        - Mike
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