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Re: Experience with Rallydev's SLM tools?

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  • Eb
    Ron, Agreed ... Wasnt saying that anyone was unaware but is there a difference between knowing it and doing it? Tell us your MySace address ;)
    Message 1 of 37 , Mar 2, 2007

      > > I think what is being exhibited here (generally not specifically
      > > you G) is a generational gap in thinking about what interaction
      > > is. MySpace, del.icio.us, Facebook, Blogs all that web 2.0 jazz -
      > > has shown that plenty of people interact online and that some web
      > > technologies actually just give you another option to face to face
      > > real time interaction.
      > Oddly enough, even those of us from several generations ago know
      > that. We also prefer to date real women and pair program face to
      > face.

      Wasnt saying that anyone was unaware but is there a difference between
      knowing it and doing it? Tell us your MySace address ;) And I think we
      can all agree on the real and face to face you mention above.

      I still think there is a generational difference in the way these
      tools are understood and interacted with and hence used. I say this
      being 35 and having started seriously using computers about 20 years
      ago. I look at 15-20 yr olds, and the way they perceive the digital
      world is much more fluid and barrier free than my peers. Not many
      people I know are filming clips on mobiles and posting them to YouTube
      - I know some doing it professionally but not as a social exercise.
      > > Yes face to face real time is be better most of the time - but
      > > that does not mean that technologically mediated comms channel are
      > > all bad and lead to non agile behaviour.
      > They aren't ALL bad and they don't LEAD to non-agile behavior. On
      > the other hand they are not AS GOOD, and they HINDER agile behavior,
      > to some degree.

      No doubt they hinder and are not as good as face to face in terms of
      developing Agile behaviour BUT that wont be true in all cases. I would
      have thought that they hinder one differently dependant on where you
      are on the agile path? Maybe in most (95%) cases a collocated team
      does exhibit more agility (how woud u measure that) but in 5% of cases
      for example a non collocated team of (ludicrous example to follow)
      lifelong physically disabled developers who are used to the nuances of
      communications difficulties actually work more effectively through
      technically mediated comms channels.

      What I'm trying to say is that no doubt a lot of you FEEL face to face
      collocated is better all the time (and it might be for you) but there
      are probably other groups/characters/individuals/generations/ that can
      do just as well with a mixture of communications environments - a
      suitable subject for scientific study no doubt?

      > As someone who recommends things, I feel that it's best to push for
      > the best, while accepting reality. But reality is changeable ... so
      > accepting less isn't always as "pragmatic" as people think it is.
      > As someone who has worked both ways ... and seen teams transition in
      > both directions, I'm of the opinion that no one who hasn't gone all
      > the way has a good enough sense of the value to decide not to go
      > there.

      Agreed. I recommend you fly 1st class but today you cant afford it -
      fly coach - save up and eventually you can get to the 1st class reality.

      I live in Bath in the UK and every day I travelled to London for over
      a year (3hrs each way) to collocate with my team - if I could change
      that reality to live in London then I would but my wife lives a
      different reality and likes Bath.

      Now I work 2 days from Bath which means I wont die quite as early of
      heart failure and it also means that I have to communicate with the
      team via digital technologies....and it's different than being there
      but definitely not less productive for me - I'm not an active
      developer any more so maybe not an example of team Agility.

      As my team is Agile (or at least trying as best they can given they
      cant all sit in the same room) and self managing its up to them when
      and how they communicate as far as I'm concerned - so they all get
      together for the Scrum - after that its up to them and they basically
      try to be together as much as is possible for the group.

      > > I think we need some flexibility here in our thinking around what
      > > it means to interact.
      > I use email here because we can't talk. Doesn't mean it's best. IMO
      > it's not.

      Right on - It's a pain for conversations...face to face is better but
      we cant all do it all the time so when someone mentions other ways to
      do it - it would be nice not to get the obligatory - OMG you guys are
      typical socially awkward developers who cant be agile and want to hide
      from each other.

      We all agree that its best to be together as a team and to push hard
      for that to happen - when it can't, we can use the next best thing right?


      > Ron Jeffries
      > www.XProgramming.com
      > But the attitude of faith is to let go, and become open to
      > truth, whatever it might turn out to be. -- Alan Watts
    • Ron Jeffries
      ... I don t. :) ... Yes ... ... I wouldn t presume to know that. I ll comment. ... Why do you do these things? Who uses them, and how? Would you use them if
      Message 37 of 37 , Mar 8, 2007
        Hello, Eb. On Sunday, March 4, 2007, at 9:47:22 AM, you wrote:

        > What can I say - I agree with pretty much everything you've said.

        I don't. :)

        > I totally get George's angle that tools can breed isolation and
        > complacency, in any environment too - and that its hard to resist
        > allure of "well I sent you a mail - why don't you understand". I
        > appreciate that you are advocating best practice in the tools and
        > methods that people use.

        Yes ...

        > So let me reconfig the whole thing into a question, I'll describe my
        > environment and everyone can tell me how to make it best practice?

        I wouldn't presume to know that. I'll comment.

        > We have a team of 5 - plus a scrum master - plus a product owner(me
        > for a certain stream) - One of the team (actually the longest serving
        > member) moved out of London several years ago and it was agreed by
        > previous mgmt that she would work from home 4 days and come into the
        > office for one.

        > We scrum every day (one by skype conf) we use campfire to record the
        > 'what I did and what I'll do' for each team member. We use del.icio.us
        > for anything interesting we find online. Sometimes we use cardmeeting.com

        Why do you do these things? Who uses them, and how? Would you use
        them if you didn't have the out of town person?

        > We used only cards and whiteboard for about 6 months. With excel for
        > burndown. We now use cards for sprint planning and collecting stories,
        > and record them in Scrumworks. The team in the office sit in a row of
        > two deep facing each other in an open plan office (tried to change
        > that).

        I wouldn't, at least not much. Open office is usually more

        > We use a wiki to record retrospectives, team working practice,
        > ideas etc.

        Does anyone read it? Why? No, seriously. You're in the same room.

        > We dont pair yet - tho we are about to start. We do CI as
        > much as possible and follow TDD as much as possible and push for more.

        As much as possible meaning ... as much as we currently do?

        > We estimate in story points. Sprint is planned based on task time and
        > the ammount of time the team has avail. The team are expected to have
        > 5 hrs coding time a day. Oh and we use SVN for source and Mantis for
        > bug tracking tho largely we've been pretty clean so far...fingers crossed.

        > Is this a good/bad balance of paper and computer? What would you try
        > to change/introduce?

        I really don't know ... I'd have to watch you. Are you happy with
        what you're getting? How could results be better for you?

        Ron Jeffries
        Get over it. -- The Eagles
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