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FitNesse and Story Test IQ (STIQ)

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  • Anne Wolfinger
    In getting geared up to launch our first Scrum project, we re researching different tools. We ll be using Java/Eclipse, JUnit, and CruiseControl for
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 1, 2007
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      In getting geared up to launch our first Scrum project, we're
      researching different tools. We'll be using Java/Eclipse, JUnit,
      and CruiseControl for continuous builds. Having gone through an
      arduous, time-consuming and less-than-satisfactory manual customer
      acceptance testing process on our last(non-agile) project, I like
      the sound of automated UAT. However, this is the assessment I got
      of FitNesse and STIQ when I asked one of our programmers to review
      the website info:

      "I skimmed over the links you sent me which indicate that these
      tools allow you to create a quick prototype outside of the
      application you are building to verify customer requirements. My
      most successful experience on building systems has been geared
      around using the actual toolsets to build not prototypes but frames
      of the actual screens, reports, etc, that will be molded into the
      working system through close communication and iterations with the
      clients. This results in the clients getting their hands around
      what they are actually going to get from their system, (nothing is
      lost in the translation between the toolsets) and it also
      streamlines the development effort in that you are not developing
      any throw away code that was developed for the prototype. Hope this
      helps."

      Any feedback, experience-sharing, recommendations would be
      appreciated.
      Thanks,
      Anne Wolfinger
      MT Department of Labor and Industry
    • Mishkin Berteig
      At least for FitNesse, you aren t developing prototype code (or you shouldn t be)... you are developing connector code that allows the FitNesse UI to exercise
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 1, 2007
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        At least for FitNesse, you aren't developing prototype code (or you shouldn't be)... you are developing connector code that allows the FitNesse UI to exercise the actual production code.  There is no prototyping involved.
         
        Mishkin Berteig
        mishkin@...
        http://www.agileadvice.com/
        "Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues" - Baha'u'llah


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Anne Wolfinger <awolfinger@...>
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2007 1:02:33 PM
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] FitNesse and Story Test IQ (STIQ)

        In getting geared up to launch our first Scrum project, we're
        researching different tools. We'll be using Java/Eclipse, JUnit,
        and CruiseControl for continuous builds. Having gone through an
        arduous, time-consuming and less-than-satisfact ory manual customer
        acceptance testing process on our last(non-agile) project, I like
        the sound of automated UAT. However, this is the assessment I got
        of FitNesse and STIQ when I asked one of our programmers to review
        the website info:

        "I skimmed over the links you sent me which indicate that these
        tools allow you to create a quick prototype outside of the
        application you are building to verify customer requirements. My
        most successful experience on building systems has been geared
        around using the actual toolsets to build not prototypes but frames
        of the actual screens, reports, etc, that will be molded into the
        working system through close communication and iterations with the
        clients. This results in the clients getting their hands around
        what they are actually going to get from their system, (nothing is
        lost in the translation between the toolsets) and it also
        streamlines the development effort in that you are not developing
        any throw away code that was developed for the prototype. Hope this
        helps."

        Any feedback, experience-sharing, recommendations would be
        appreciated.
        Thanks,
        Anne Wolfinger
        MT Department of Labor and Industry




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      • Andreas Schliep
        Hi, interesting answer. What your developer tells you is not wrong yet not completely right. Of course, having close customer interaction when it comes to real
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 1, 2007
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          Hi,

          interesting answer. What your developer tells you is not wrong yet not
          completely right. Of course, having close customer interaction when it
          comes to real acceptance is an important factor.

          "Anny likes the form. However, the cancel button should be moved to
          the left side... Blue is better than grey... The font should be larger"

          User Acceptance Tests are actually system tests that prove that the
          code does as the customer expected. They are especially helpful to
          check a variety of conditions you would not want to go through with
          your customer all the time.

          "If you press cancel, no operation is performed"
          "If you enter an invalid ZIP code, you cannot press OK"
          "If you select a country other than US, you can omit the state"
          ...

          You do not create a prototype of the system but a detailled view about
          the system's behaviour from the user perspective. You are able to
          understand what your customer really wants before you are able to
          demonstrate any form, piece of application, web site.

          By the way: It is much easier to prove the system still does what it
          should with UATs when you move on to new stories.

          Cheers
          Andreas

          I would like to recommend to you the visit of the agile-testing
          discussion group to get a deeper insight.
        • Chris S. Sterling
          Good day Anne, I will preface my email with the fact that I am one of the developers for StoryTestIQ (aka STIQ) and that we use it on many projects currently
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 1, 2007
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            Good day Anne,
             
            I will preface my email with the fact that I am one of the developers for StoryTestIQ (aka STIQ) and that we use it on many projects currently at SolutionsIQ.  We created STIQ out of a need to help our Product Owner describe what they were asking for in their feature requests and ultimately user stories.  STIQ is a combination of Fit, FitNesse, and Selenium with some special sauce that allows you to do both web UI and beneath the UI acceptance testing.
             
            Here is a scenario of how we use it:
             
            Upon completion of the Sprint Planning Meeting we come out with the following artifacts related to the development of our acceptance tests:
            * User Stories the team has committed to
            * Acceptance Criteria (aka "Confirmation" from Ron Jeffries description of a user story)
            * Some high level communications about the user interactions which have been formally or informally captured
             
            Our teams immediately go to work on created automated Acceptance Tests using this information and further collaboration with the Product Owner and other Subject Matter Experts (SME).  After we have built up a good amount of Acceptance Tests for our applications we will collect a bunch of utility scripts which get us to specific parts of the application or do repetitive things like login as multiple types of users.  Usually we can put together some scaffolding for our Acceptance Tests rather quickly using these utility scripts and much of the collaboration happens after this.
             
            After setting up our Acceptance Tests we will "tag" them with the name of the Sprint so that we can create a test suite which represents all Acceptance Tests for the Sprint.  All of the individual tests which are collected into this test suite should be failing to begin with because we have added in the expectations of the User Story's Acceptance Criteria into the tests.  Once a user story has tests ready (meaning failing tests created with acceptance of the tests from our Product Owner) then we begin coding using TDD and potentially creating more QA regression tests which go beyond the Acceptance Tests.  These extra tests may go into a different tool (such JMeter, QTP, DBUnit, xUnit, etc...) or could be extra tests added to STIQ.
             
            Once the team has developed all of the artifacts needed to meet their Definition of Done and the Acceptance Tests are all passing for a User Story then the User Story is "accepted" with validation from the Product Owner during the Sprint hopefully.  We get feedback on a continual basis through a Continuous Integration tool that we use with STIQ to show if all Acceptance Tests are passing that have been included into the build (meaning the development has been worked through to make that test "pass").
             
            We are not perfect in the creation of all Acceptance Tests at the beginning of the Sprint with the Product Owner, SME, business analysts, etc.  But we do have a very good start on capturing the intent of the Sprint deliverables.  There are many times that development of code to satisfy an Acceptance Test may identify a potential issue which the Product Owner negotiates with the team to resolve.  There are also times that the Product Owner, upon seeing the actual working code, may decide to negotiate on specific details of an Acceptance Test.  I believe that the tight feedback loops with the Product Owner increases our ability to deliver closer to what the customer wants without as much rework.
             
            I hope this helps and would be interested in what and how you decide to move forward with Acceptance Testing mostly in the automated capacity.  In full disclosure it is not an easy practice to work into your daily routines.  There are many bumps and bruises along the way but once it starts to settle out things get a whole lot better.  I know for myself that I do not like creating software in any other way.  You can contact me directly at CSterling at SolutionsIQ dot com if you have any other questions you would like to direct towards me.
             
            Chris Sterling
             
            “...Specialization is for insects" - Robert A. Heinlein
             


            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Wolfinger
            Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 10:03 AM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [scrumdevelopment] FitNesse and Story Test IQ (STIQ)

            In getting geared up to launch our first Scrum project, we're
            researching different tools. We'll be using Java/Eclipse, JUnit,
            and CruiseControl for continuous builds. Having gone through an
            arduous, time-consuming and less-than-satisfact ory manual customer
            acceptance testing process on our last(non-agile) project, I like
            the sound of automated UAT. However, this is the assessment I got
            of FitNesse and STIQ when I asked one of our programmers to review
            the website info:

            "I skimmed over the links you sent me which indicate that these
            tools allow you to create a quick prototype outside of the
            application you are building to verify customer requirements. My
            most successful experience on building systems has been geared
            around using the actual toolsets to build not prototypes but frames
            of the actual screens, reports, etc, that will be molded into the
            working system through close communication and iterations with the
            clients. This results in the clients getting their hands around
            what they are actually going to get from their system, (nothing is
            lost in the translation between the toolsets) and it also
            streamlines the development effort in that you are not developing
            any throw away code that was developed for the prototype. Hope this
            helps."

            Any feedback, experience-sharing, recommendations would be
            appreciated.
            Thanks,
            Anne Wolfinger
            MT Department of Labor and Industry

          • Fran├žois Beauregard
            Hi Anne, AS Chris mentions, Story Driven Development and creation of acceptance tests at the beginning of sprints is not an easy practice to implement in Agile
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 2, 2007
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              Hi Anne,

              AS Chris mentions, Story Driven Development and creation of acceptance
              tests at the beginning of sprints is not an easy practice to implement
              in Agile teams but it is very rewarding. It is also a key enabler of
              sustyainable development.

              You may want to have a look at our product GreenPepper
              (www.greenpeppersoftware.com). Our product is fairly young so we are
              actively looking for feedback to improve it.

              Do not hesitate to contact us for anything.

              Best Regards,
              ~Fran├žois

              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Anne Wolfinger"
              <awolfinger@...> wrote:
              >
              > In getting geared up to launch our first Scrum project, we're
              > researching different tools. We'll be using Java/Eclipse, JUnit,
              > and CruiseControl for continuous builds. Having gone through an
              > arduous, time-consuming and less-than-satisfactory manual customer
              > acceptance testing process on our last(non-agile) project, I like
              > the sound of automated UAT. However, this is the assessment I got
              > of FitNesse and STIQ when I asked one of our programmers to review
              > the website info:
              >
              > "I skimmed over the links you sent me which indicate that these
              > tools allow you to create a quick prototype outside of the
              > application you are building to verify customer requirements. My
              > most successful experience on building systems has been geared
              > around using the actual toolsets to build not prototypes but frames
              > of the actual screens, reports, etc, that will be molded into the
              > working system through close communication and iterations with the
              > clients. This results in the clients getting their hands around
              > what they are actually going to get from their system, (nothing is
              > lost in the translation between the toolsets) and it also
              > streamlines the development effort in that you are not developing
              > any throw away code that was developed for the prototype. Hope this
              > helps."
              >
              > Any feedback, experience-sharing, recommendations would be
              > appreciated.
              > Thanks,
              > Anne Wolfinger
              > MT Department of Labor and Industry
              >
            • Heber Ferraz-Leite
              Hi, According to infoq.com there has been some discussion on the value of the ... Well ... basically ALL certifications are just so that you can put them in
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 20, 2007
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                Hi,

                According to infoq.com there has been some discussion on the value of the
                CSM certification. I have just posted the following as my opinion:

                ---------------

                "Well ... basically ALL certifications are just so that you can put them in
                the resume, make it past the HR selection and get into the interview. Once
                you are there it is not the certification that counts, but the personal
                impression you give the interviewer about your experience and competence.

                I did take the CSM course. Because of that I can call myself "certified".
                Because of that I have had quite a few entry points into conversations
                leading to business opportunities.

                In other words: the CSM course added value to my CV, so I am willing to pay
                for it.

                I doubt it would have the same effect to say "I went to a two-day seminar"."

                ---------------

                Thus said ... I do think that the CSM course should include an examination,
                or that there should be something like "trained CSM" for just attending the
                course and "certified CSM" for passing the examination.

                What do you think?

                Regards,

                Heber
              • Steve Ropa
                I have never liked tests. I like the way CSM certification is structured, and I think everyone needs to choose how much value to put on it. I use it from the
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 20, 2007
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                  I have never liked tests.  I like the way CSM certification is structured, and I think everyone needs to choose how much value to put on it.  I use it from the standpoint that if I go into an office to help a client out, they know that I have spent at least some time with someone who has been recognized as a leader in Scrum, and have been exposed to the “right way” to do scrum.  I can definitely state that I came out of the course understanding far more than when I went into it.

                   

                  Lets face it there are a lot of folks out there who read Ken’s book and say “we’re doing scrum” without really knowing what to do next.  Some people get it the first time from the book or books, others don’t.  Hopefully going through the CSM course will help iron out the kinks.  Of course your mileage may vary.

                   

                  Funny aside, the last company I visited said they were doing scrum because now they have daily 15 minute meetings.  They are still trying to decide if they want to try that Product Backlog thing….

                   

                  Steve Ropa

                   


                  From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Heber Ferraz-Leite
                  Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 11:42 AM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [scrumdevelopment] CSM Certification

                   

                  Hi,

                  According to infoq.com there has been some discussion on the value of the
                  CSM certification. I have just posted the following as my opinion:

                  ------------ ---

                  "Well ... basically ALL certifications are just so that you can put them in
                  the resume, make it past the HR selection and get into the interview. Once
                  you are there it is not the certification that counts, but the personal
                  impression you give the interviewer about your experience and competence.

                  I did take the CSM course. Because of that I can call myself "certified".
                  Because of that I have had quite a few entry points into conversations
                  leading to business opportunities.

                  In other words: the CSM course added value to my CV, so I am willing to pay
                  for it.

                  I doubt it would have the same effect to say "I went to a two-day seminar"."

                  ------------ ---

                  Thus said ... I do think that the CSM course should include an examination,
                  or that there should be something like "trained CSM" for just attending the
                  course and "certified CSM" for passing the examination.

                  What do you think?

                  Regards,

                  Heber

                • Marco Abis
                  In 2003, when Ken announced his idea for a certification we had a long discussion about it. It might help to shed some light on the intentions, opinions and
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 20, 2007
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                    In 2003, when Ken announced his idea for a certification we had a long discussion about it. It might help to shed some light on the intentions, opinions and background information. In particular for the "newer" to this list:

                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment/message/897

                    Marco Abis

                    "let's not talk about Type A Scrum unless we also want to talk
                    about Type W Scrum, which is more commonly called Waterfall" (Mike Cohn)

                    http://brainscrum.wordpress.com
                    http://www.agilemovement.it
                  • jlk@industriallogic.com
                    Extremely helpful Marco. Thank you! --jk
                    Message 9 of 10 , Mar 20, 2007
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                      Extremely helpful Marco. Thank you! --jk

                      > In 2003, when Ken announced his idea for a certification we had a
                      > long discussion about it. It might help to shed some light on the
                      > intentions, opinions and background information. In particular for
                      > the "newer" to this list:
                      >
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment/message/897
                      >
                      > Marco Abis
                      >
                      > "let's not talk about Type A Scrum unless we also want to talk
                      > about Type W Scrum, which is more commonly called Waterfall" (Mike Cohn)
                      >
                      > http://brainscrum.wordpress.com
                      > http://www.agilemovement.it
                      >
                    • Ron Jeffries
                      Hello, Marco. On Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 5:33:50 PM, you ... The CSM currently granted simply does not meet the criteria mentioned here, most importantly:
                      Message 10 of 10 , Mar 20, 2007
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                        Hello, Marco. On Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 5:33:50 PM, you
                        wrote:

                        > In 2003, when Ken announced his idea for a certification we had a
                        > long discussion about it. It might help to shed some light on the
                        > intentions, opinions and background information. In particular for
                        > the "newer" to this list:

                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment/message/897

                        That post contains the following sentences:

                        > I had a long conversation with Martin Fowler about this and he
                        > suggested that we launch the idea of the "Certified ScrumMaster."
                        > This is someone who really knows Scrum, getting it both emotionally
                        > and intellectually, through reading, thinking and - most important -
                        > experience.

                        The CSM currently granted simply does not meet the criteria
                        mentioned here, most importantly: experience.

                        CSM sells like hot cakes. It's even a decent course. But it doesn't
                        meet the criteria originally set forth.

                        Ron Jeffries
                        www.XProgramming.com
                        Do as you will, try to do it well. That's what I do.
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