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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: In search of the waterfall.

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  • Graeme Matthew
    sorry thought you did not have approval, hope it goes well, good luck
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 2, 2007
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      sorry thought you did not have approval, hope it goes well, good luck

      petriheiramo wrote:
      >
      > Hi Graeme,
      >
      > > Get approval. Pick a project, ensure you have a team that is fully
      > > committed to the agile mindset, prove it, let the business market its
      > > success and I am sure that people will say I want a piece of that. I
      > > strongly believe that many people are risk averse, why change, but if
      > > they see it work they are very quick to grab some of it :-)) It takes a
      > > few people to make the change and take the risk.
      >
      > I have already received that approval in my division, and I've got a
      > sample of successes :). I don't have to prove them in my part of the
      > organization anymore, just get people to understand the results and
      > how to apply it in their work (ie. start their own Scrum project, or
      > convert into one). That's where I need them to understand the thinking
      > as well.
      >
      > But I also need to carry the torch to other parts of the organization.
      > They work in a different kind of software development business and
      > while there are many equalities between the work in the divisions,
      > there are some very significant differences, primarily in the customer
      > world. So merely showing success in our division is not enough
      > (especially when it's difficult to show it in big numbers), I have to
      > be able to give them ideas how they can get them in their world.
      >
      > So I'm going in through all fronts. First get them to understand the
      > ideas of Agility, then show that we've had great results and people
      > are happy with it, and then go in and work the miracles with them. :)
      > It's still a long road ahead, but I'm very optimistic.
      >
      > > If you believe in De Bono, look at Pratical Thinking, pg 130
      > >
      > > No Escape:
      > >
      > > "The idea is so absolutely right that everyone must work towards it.
      > > Lack of acceptance of the idea can only be due to ignorance, stupidity
      > > or bad will"
      > >
      > > Who wants to be seen as ignorant?
      > > Who wants to be seen as stupid?
      > > Who wants , no matter what the politics wants to be seen as bad will?
      > >
      > > now if you execute and prove its not an idea it is fact , who would
      > say no?
      >
      > I agree, but people firm in their opinion will often still defend
      > their opinion (see Practical Thinking, p. 88 - 92). They either claim
      > that I don't have the whole picture (yes, it's nice it works for you,
      > but we have this and that, and it won't work here the same) or they
      > are "arrogant" and shut out the possibilities to avoid confronting the
      > change.
      >
      > Luckily, I'm getting positive feedback on the ideas and I think, given
      > time, we will have a more Agile way of working. However, "Agility is
      > not the goal; it's a means to delivering software effectively", so I
      > cannot be arrogant myself and claim that it's the only way. :)
      >
      > In fact, we've identified some elements in our business environment
      > that will make it very difficult to eliminate the phased approach
      > completely. It's a challenge that we may in fact turn into our
      > advantage, but it's something that I have to help the people involved
      > to solve. But we still may have to accept some phased approach in some
      > environments.
      >
      > Petri Heiramo
      >
      > Process Improvement Manager
      > SysOpen Digia Plc / Telecommunications
      > Hämeentie 135 A, FIN-00560 Helsinki, Finland
      > email: petri.heiramo@...
      > <mailto:petri.heiramo%40sysopendigia.com> / +358-40-7092 526
      >
      >
    • petriheiramo
      Graeme, ... Your advice is a solid one, and ultimately it will come down to getting it work in practice. No matter of talk and ideology will surpass the proof
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 2, 2007
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        Graeme,

        > sorry thought you did not have approval, hope it goes well, good luck

        Your advice is a solid one, and ultimately it will come down to
        getting it work in practice. No matter of talk and ideology will
        surpass the proof of practical success.

        So far all I've done in the other parts in the organization is talk. I
        have to take your advice to heart in order to prove Agility there. How
        did it go, "walk the walk"? :)

        Interestingly, while often development processes are evaluated based
        on their financial performance, some of the recent interest has
        focused primarily on the effect of Agility on developer morale.


        Yours Sincerely,


        Petri

        > petriheiramo wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Graeme,
        > >
        > > > Get approval. Pick a project, ensure you have a team that is fully
        > > > committed to the agile mindset, prove it, let the business
        market its
        > > > success and I am sure that people will say I want a piece of that. I
        > > > strongly believe that many people are risk averse, why change,
        but if
        > > > they see it work they are very quick to grab some of it :-)) It
        takes a
        > > > few people to make the change and take the risk.
        > >
        > > I have already received that approval in my division, and I've got a
        > > sample of successes :). I don't have to prove them in my part of the
        > > organization anymore, just get people to understand the results and
        > > how to apply it in their work (ie. start their own Scrum project, or
        > > convert into one). That's where I need them to understand the thinking
        > > as well.
        > >
        > > But I also need to carry the torch to other parts of the organization.
        > > They work in a different kind of software development business and
        > > while there are many equalities between the work in the divisions,
        > > there are some very significant differences, primarily in the customer
        > > world. So merely showing success in our division is not enough
        > > (especially when it's difficult to show it in big numbers), I have to
        > > be able to give them ideas how they can get them in their world.
        > >
        > > So I'm going in through all fronts. First get them to understand the
        > > ideas of Agility, then show that we've had great results and people
        > > are happy with it, and then go in and work the miracles with them. :)
        > > It's still a long road ahead, but I'm very optimistic.
        > >
        > > > If you believe in De Bono, look at Pratical Thinking, pg 130
        > > >
        > > > No Escape:
        > > >
        > > > "The idea is so absolutely right that everyone must work towards it.
        > > > Lack of acceptance of the idea can only be due to ignorance,
        stupidity
        > > > or bad will"
        > > >
        > > > Who wants to be seen as ignorant?
        > > > Who wants to be seen as stupid?
        > > > Who wants , no matter what the politics wants to be seen as bad
        will?
        > > >
        > > > now if you execute and prove its not an idea it is fact , who would
        > > say no?
        > >
        > > I agree, but people firm in their opinion will often still defend
        > > their opinion (see Practical Thinking, p. 88 - 92). They either claim
        > > that I don't have the whole picture (yes, it's nice it works for you,
        > > but we have this and that, and it won't work here the same) or they
        > > are "arrogant" and shut out the possibilities to avoid confronting the
        > > change.
        > >
        > > Luckily, I'm getting positive feedback on the ideas and I think, given
        > > time, we will have a more Agile way of working. However, "Agility is
        > > not the goal; it's a means to delivering software effectively", so I
        > > cannot be arrogant myself and claim that it's the only way. :)
        > >
        > > In fact, we've identified some elements in our business environment
        > > that will make it very difficult to eliminate the phased approach
        > > completely. It's a challenge that we may in fact turn into our
        > > advantage, but it's something that I have to help the people involved
        > > to solve. But we still may have to accept some phased approach in some
        > > environments.
        > >
        > > Petri Heiramo
        > >
        > > Process Improvement Manager
        > > SysOpen Digia Plc / Telecommunications
        > > Hämeentie 135 A, FIN-00560 Helsinki, Finland
        > > email: petri.heiramo@...
        > > <mailto:petri.heiramo%40sysopendigia.com> / +358-40-7092 526
        > >
        > >
        >
      • Alexey Krivitsky
        Steven. That s an interesting point you made about a scrum team put to waterfall: a real scrum team will turn any of existing processes they are faced with
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 2, 2007
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          Steven.

          That's an interesting point you made about a scrum team put to waterfall:
          a real scrum team will turn any of existing processes they are faced with into scrum
          after several adaptations.

          This means that if a company doesn't know how to make their processes agile,
          they need to invite an expert scrum team that will show the approach in real time.

          That's interesting.

          On 1/31/07, Steven Gordon < sgordonphd@...> wrote:

          For teams that just do not get it, a short waterfall is not a bad
          starting point. What happens when a new scrum teams tries to do a
          short waterfall is quite predictable.

          When they cannot deliver anything completely done, then inspect and
          adapt should slowly lead to more thinly sliced stories, analysis and
          design via just defining the tests before the implementation, and most
          of the XP engineering practices (as long as somebody prevents the team
          from extending the length of their sprints).

          The shorter the sprint length, the quicker the learning (I highly
          recommend 2 weeks at the max). Of course, a good coach can
          excellerate this improvement process, but having the team's experience
          motivate the improvements helps people really get it.

          Steve

          On 1/31/07, Mike Sutton <mike.sutton@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi All,
          >
          > having recently been on a scrum master workshop and experienced the
          > revelation that is scrum, I could help but notice just how many people
          > who attended this workshop didn't 'get' it. After years of being told
          > what to do, how to do it and when to do it by, many of the attendees
          > were with an agile doctor looking for a waterfall prescription.
          >
          > By this I mean, they hadn't made the mental leap that Scrum requires
          > for it to be done properly. Infact my observation was that in the
          > activities we did, many proposed solutions that inserted waterfall
          > into sprints (analyses firsts, then design and so on). Applying a
          > scrum approach to a waterfall implementation is asking for trouble
          > because you perhaps will tend to imply that each waterfall phase might
          > be considered a sprint and therefore would last a month!
          >
          > Does anyone have anything to add to this and perhaps experiences of
          > scrums which have been chucked over the waterfall?
          >
          > cheers
          > Mike.
          > certified.certifiable


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