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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Benchmarking Firms/Projects Using Agile/Scrum ?

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  • Anne Sofie Bille
    Nicholas Cancelliere skrev: / Hi Nicholas/ ... It measures some core fundamental concepts on a 0-5 scale with over 80 some questions. It takes about 8-10
    Message 1 of 73 , Feb 1, 2007
      Nicholas Cancelliere skrev:

      Hi Nicholas

      > I’ve

      seen a questioner by Hartmann and Stallings that is pretty good.  It measures some core fundamental concepts on a 0-5 scale with over 80 some questions.  It takes about 8-10 minutes to complete.


      I will look into that one too- thanks

      >  

      > I

      don’t think that you can measure the success of an Agile team in the manner you’re describing.  Why aren’t you using the retrospectives to make note of and address the “red and yellow” issues?

       

      We do use retrospective meetings and that works out very well.

      It is not a question of acting agile in a concrete project it is more a question of talking management into supporting their agile development teams.

      > 

      >  

      > How

      are you comparing two different agile teams to one another?  If they’re both performing well – ie their customers are happy who cares about the numerical differences between them?  Comparing two different Agile projects … again what do you gain by doing this?  Teams are different, projects are different, they’ll face different challenges and issues – so how do you compare them fairly?  Isn’t what matters is that at the end of the day the team fulfills their commitments and the customer is happy?

       

      Example

      We have been running 3 different agile projects at a large banking customer.

      The 3 projects were part of a programme and what we experienced was, that the 3 agile projects compared to the other projects, was much more successful.

      The customer satisfaction was high (How high?)

      The development team was much more motivated and satisfied with their effort (How much more?)

      The time used for construction, test and delivery of working software, was faster (How much faster)

      All teams had the same size, and all were co-located – 3 teams went Agile, 7 teams was doing as the used to. (What made the difference?)

      Etc.

      I could list several other differences and for the management it would be very useful to understand this. We explain and talk about this but they like to be able to collect the information along the way.
      If we structure data from several projects, it will give us and the customers some trends of what is working well and what are the reasons for impediments (not only in the development team)

      This is not a control-thing but a tool to understand-things.

       

      >  

      > My

      impression here is that there is maybe a need to exert some control?  Usually when managers are asking for ways to measure things it’s because they wish to control something.  Why don’t you ask them team themselves what metrics they feel are important to be measuring every sprint, every project.  Ask them in what ways they want to be compared to other teams and how they know they’re being more successful than Team B down the hall.  Ask them if they feel its valuable to do this every sprint, project, etc.  Then execute on those decisions.

       

      We have done exactly as you suggests above, but still we have some dinosaurs who are placed in top-level management and they tend to be more interested in surveys, numbers, money than what real-life experiences tells them.

      > 

      >  

      > I

      guess I’m just confused why you feel it necessary to compare and contrast these things if the teams are self-organizing and self-managing.  If the team isn’t doing well – it shouldn’t need you to tell them so, they should know it themselves – they’ll feel the pain.  If they’re doing well they shouldn’t need you to tell them so – they should know it by the customer’s happiness level and their general lack of stress.

      >  

      As I try to explain we interact in a lot of good and well running agile projects and as I see it is not the development teams that are giving me troubles, but the management lack of understanding the benefits of agile and what is going on.

       

      Also as a salesperson I meet some new customers that have never heard about agile and for those I really need reference stories, surveys and maybe this benchmarking that I am thinking about.

       

      Regards

      Anne Sofie

      > 




      I’ve seen a questioner by Hartmann and Stallings that is pretty good.  It measures some core fundamental concepts on a 0-5 scale with over 80 some questions.  It takes about 8-10 minutes to complete.

       

      I don’t think that you can measure the success of an Agile team in the manner you’re describing.  Why aren’t you using the retrospectives to make note of and address the “red and yellow” issues?


       

      How are you comparing two different agile teams to one another?  If they’re both performing well – ie their customers are happy who cares about the numerical differences between them?  Comparing two different Agile projects … again what do you gain by doing this?  Teams are different, projects are different, they’ll face different challenges and issues – so how do you compare them fairly?  Isn’t what matters is that at the end of the day the team fulfills their commitments and the customer is happy?

       

      My impression here is that there is maybe a need to exert some control?  Usually when managers are asking for ways to measure things it’s because they wish to control something.  Why don’t you ask them team themselves what metrics they feel are important to be measuring every sprint, every project.  Ask them in what ways they want to be compared to other teams and how they know they’re being more successful than Team B down the hall.  Ask them if they feel its valuable to do this every sprint, project, etc.  Then execute on those decisions.

       

      I guess I’m just confused why you feel it necessary to compare and contrast these things if the teams are self-organizing and self-managing.  If the team isn’t doing well – it shouldn’t need you to tell them so, they should know it themselves – they’ll feel the pain.  If they’re doing well they shouldn’t need you to tell them so – they should know it by the customer’s happiness level and their general lack of stress.

       

      Nick

       

       

       


      From: scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:scrumdevelo pment@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of woynam
      Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:08 PM
      To: scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Benchmarking Firms/Projects Using Agile/Scrum ?

       


      You could start here:

      http://www.versiono ne.com/Resources /AreYouAgile. asp

      Mark

      --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Anne Sofie Bille <asb@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi
      >
      > I have read lots of opinions about companies' way of using agile
      > methodologies. I am sure it will be difficult to measure or decide who
      > are really doing it in the right way.
      >
      >
      > I am trying to figure out how to ask just 10-20 simple questions, at
      the
      > end of each sprint, to get a feeling of how "Agile" the project is
      > running.(red, yellow, green)
      > These questions shall be pushed out (webtool) to all project team
      > members, management, business-unit and/or end-users. It should only
      take
      > each participant 2-3 minutes to fill-out.
      > At the end of each sprint you can go over the response and act on the
      > red, yellow issues.
      > At the end of each project, you can evaluate the project from start
      to end.
      > At the end of a programme you can evaluate and benchmark the projects
      > towards each other
      >
      > I think we could ask for both soft questions and specific values
      > (metrics). Compared to what we already know in for instance in
      > Scrumworks and other Agile tools, we could get a fairly good picture of
      > how Agile the customer/projects are.
      > Is this way out ? has someone tried to do this before? what's your
      opinion?
      >
      >
      >
      > Regards
      >
      >
      >
      > Anne Sofie Bille
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Joseph Little skrev:
      > >
      > > Hi Anne,
      > >
      > > Sounds good. I think you expressed some of the benefits of this
      > > "Firms" list quite well.
      > >
      > > One other benefit: A useful conversation between the purists (zealots)
      > > and the pragmatists.
      > >
      > > Clearly to me that conversation is useful. At the extremes, at least
      > > Anne and Joe can agree that some of the purists need to go on drugs
      > > and some of the so-called "pragmatists" should be run out of the agile
      > > community. But in general the tension between the two sides is a very
      > > healthy thing.
      > >
      > > (For myself, I'll paraphrase Mae West. When choosing between the two
      > > sins of purism and pragmatism, I usually take the one I haven't
      > > committed recently.)
      > >
      > > Two truisms:
      > > * No matter where we are, we can always get better.
      > > * If we wait until we are perfect, we will waste a lot of time.
      > >
      > > Perhaps it is more useful to say:
      > > * The purists are right that the pragmatists could be playing
      > > Scrum/Agile better. (Of course, so could the purists.)
      > > * The pragmatists are right when they say: "Let me do something today,
      > > however imperfect, and then I can inspect and adapt to a better
      > > implementation later." And "you purists are asking me to be too much
      > > better than I am...instead of hand-wringing, what can you suggest that
      > > I can actually do today?"
      > >
      > > I have found that when the two sides just cuss at each other, however
      > > amusing it is, it does not cause much useful change to occur.
      > >
      > > Thanks, Joe
      > >
      > > Kitty Hawk Consulting
      > > Charlotte , NC
      > >
      > > --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com
      > > <mailto:scrumdevelo pment%40yahoogro ups.com>, Anne Sofie Bille
      > > <asb@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi Jo
      > > >
      > > > I am aware of several Danish (20-30) companies implementing Scrum in
      > > one
      > > > or more projects.
      > > > Some have worked with Scrum for several years, and some just got
      > > started.
      > > > I would like to ask some of my contacts "out there" if the like
      to get
      > > > listed - but we might have to explain a little more about the
      purpose
      > > > for this request, and what you will use it for.
      > > > We often meet questions like: Who else have done this? Do you know
      > > > companies that will tell us how it works? Whats the organizational
      > > > impact etc.etc.
      > > > In our company Jeff Sutherland has trained more than a 100
      persons as
      > > > CSM´s over the past 12 months and we do a lot of practicing and
      > > > consulting as well.
      > > >
      > > > As a working CSM and Sales Manager I focus on spreading out the word
      > > > every day and all kind of information, references knowledge
      charing is
      > > > important to me.
      > > > Í will push out an e-mail to my contacts asking them to register
      at the
      > > > Scrum Alliance wiki.
      > > >
      > > > Thanks!
      > > >
      > > > Anne Sofie Bille
      > > > EOS A/S, Denmark
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Joseph Little skrev:
      > > > >
      > > > > Can you add more info to the following list? See additional
      comments
      > > > > below the list.
      > > > >
      > > > > This is the list of all the firms we have identified so far as
      using
      > > > > Scrum currently. We know there are others. Can you help us
      make the
      > > > > list more accurate?
      > > > >
      > > > > *Firm* City State Country Have contact?
      > > > > Adelaide Bank
      > > > >
      > > > > Australia Yes
      > > > > Adobe Systems Seattle WA USA Yes
      > > > > Advanced Micro Devices Austin TX USA Yes
      > > > > APL
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Ariba
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > b+m Informatik AG Melsdorf
      > > > > Germany Yes
      > > > > BBC New Media Dept London England UK Yes
      > > > > Bank of America London England UK
      > > > > Bank of America Charlotte NC USA
      > > > > Bentley Systems
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > BMC
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Bose
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > CAN
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Capital One Financial Richmond VA USA Yes
      > > > > ClearChannel
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Computer Associates - Wiley Div Brisbane CA USA Yes
      > > > > Conchango
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Federal Reserve Bank
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > FormScape Fleet England UK Yes
      > > > > French Post Office
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Gestalt
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Google
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > HP
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > IBM
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > IDX
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Infopark AG Berlin
      > > > > Germany Yes
      > > > > InterAct Public Safety Systems Asheville NC USA Yes
      > > > > InterBusiness Technologies Curitiba/São Paulo PR/SP Brasil Yes
      > > > > Key Bank Cleveland OH USA Yes
      > > > > Lash Group Charlotte NC USA Yes
      > > > > Leapfrog Online Evanston IL USA Yes
      > > > > Lexis-Nexis
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > LMCO
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Löwenfels Partner AG Lucerne
      > > > > Switzerland Yes
      > > > > Medtronic Minneapolis MN USA Yes
      > > > > Microsoft
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Mobile Fun Limited Birmingham England UK Yes
      > > > > Motorola
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Motorola Poland Cracow
      > > > > Poland Yes
      > > > > Nokia
      > > > >
      > > > > Other countries
      > > > > Nokia NET
      > > > >
      > > > > Finland Yes
      > > > > Océ Venlo
      > > > > Netherlands Yes
      > > > > OpenSource Connections Charlottesville VA USA Yes
      > > > > Outformations, Inc. Oakland CA USA Yes
      > > > > Patientkeeper, Inc. Newton MA USA Yes
      > > > > Philips
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Philips Research Miplaza/SES Eindhoven
      > > > > The Netherlands Yes
      > > > > Primavera
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Qpass/Amdocs Vienna
      > > > > Austria Yes
      > > > > Qpass/Amdocs Seattle WA USA Yes
      > > > > Qpass/Amdocs Seattle WA USA Yes
      > > > > Qualcomm San Diego CA USA Yes
      > > > > Quantum Leap Innovations Newark DE USA Yes
      > > > > SAIC
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Sammy Studios
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > SAP
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Security Benefit
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Yes
      > > > > Siemens
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Siemens Austria
      > > > >
      > > > > Austria
      > > > > Siemens Medical
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Siemens Medical Solutions Malvern PA USA Yes
      > > > > Smith Seckman Reid, Inc. Nashville TN USA Yes
      > > > > Softtek Monterrey Nuevo Leon Mexico Yes
      > > > > State Farm
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > State Street Bank
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Sun
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Symphony Services Corp. ( India ) Pvt. Ltd Bangalore
      > > > > India Yes
      > > > > SysOpen Digia Helsinki
      > > > > Finland Yes
      > > > > Telegraaf Media Group NV Amsterdam
      > > > > Netherlands Yes
      > > > > Trango (Siemens) Toronto
      > > > > CAN Yes
      > > > > TransUnion
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Vanguard Group Charlotte NC USA Yes
      > > > > Wildcard Systems
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Xerox
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Yahoo Sunnyvale CA USA Yes
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Comments:
      > > > > * In general the contact (if we have one) has volunteered to be a
      > > > > contact should someone have a research request. Not necessarily
      > > > > volunteering to /do/ every research request, just willing to
      discuss
      > > > > the possibility.
      > > > > * We particularly would like to have a contact for every firm
      > > (even if
      > > > > that person is not willing to discuss research). For contacts, we
      > > > > only want the name and email address.
      > > > > * For new firms, we obviously want Firm Name, City, State, Country
      > > and
      > > > > the contact info ideally.
      > > > >
      > > > > You are welcome to add this to the Scrum Alliance wiki here:
      > > > > http://scrumallianc e.pbwiki. com/Firms% 20Using%20Scrum
      > > <http://scrumallianc e.pbwiki. com/Firms% 20Using%20Scrum>
      > > > > <http://scrumallianc e.pbwiki. com/Firms% 20Using%20Scrum
      > > <http://scrumallianc e.pbwiki. com/Firms% 20Using%20Scrum>> and for the
      > > > > contacts (if you are willing to be public), here:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Joseph Little
      > > > > 917-887-1669 (cell)
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      >

    • Joseph Little
      Ron, A few comments below based on your post... ... Hey, don t be such a hang dog. (Unless, as there usually is, more going on here than I understand.) Those
      Message 73 of 73 , Feb 6, 2007
        Ron,

        A few comments below based on your post...

        > ...and I shall henceforth consider seriously becoming more cryptic
        > in hopes of attaining that lofty goal of having my ideas actually
        > considered prior to their ultimate and summary rejection.

        Hey, don't be such a hang dog. (Unless, as there usually is, more
        going on here than I understand.) Those ideas are generally getting
        accepted. Not as fast as we would like, but faster than we have any
        right to expect, given how we humans work.

        >...in fact I think small steps are
        > an inherent part of Agile. What I am not so all for is the notion of
        > getting people to take some small step and then becoming complacent
        > because, after all, they're better off now.

        Hear, hear! Well said.

        >
        > I hasten to add that as far as I know, no one here has taken the
        > Small Step Toward Complacency position.

        Not explicitly. Who would, phrased like that? But de facto some take
        that position, as you are saying.

        > Awaiting your negotiators, or your seconds, as you may prefer, I
        > remain, yours etc., etc,
        >

        ...collaboration over...negotiation.... Is that echoing in my ears?

        Regards, Joe
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