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Looking for info on large Scrum projects

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  • Martin Fowler
    On Wednesday I ve got a meeting with one of those IT industry analysts (Giga). In a recent survey they said that one of the disadvantages of agile methods is
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 11, 2001
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      On Wednesday I've got a meeting with one of those IT industry analysts (Giga). In a recent survey they said that one of the disadvantages of agile methods is that they don't apply to large projects. I know the Scrum community knows otherwise. So I'm looking for some quick counter-examples for them. All I need is a paragraph describing the project, including the rough team size.

      I'll certainly need someone's name to quote, ideally I'd like the name of the client company if possible. So "Mike Beedle worked on an e-commerce project with 100+ people for a benefits company" is good, but "Ken Schwaber and Jeff Sutherland did a project of 100+ people at IDX is better". You can reply to the list, or to me directly. The list is better as it informs everyone, but if there's something you'd like to tell me in confidence then do send that to me.

      Martin
    • Mike Beedle
      ... Martin: Here is a large project story. In March of 2000, there were only three Internet-based applications at Caremark Inc. Two of them were based on
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 11, 2001
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        Martin Fowler writes:
        >On Wednesday I've got a meeting with one of those IT
        >industry analysts (Giga). In a recent survey they said
        >that one of the disadvantages of agile methods is
        >that they don't apply to large projects. I know the
        >Scrum community knows otherwise. So I'm looking for
        >some quick counter-examples for them. All I need is
        >a paragraph describing the project, including the
        >rough team size.
        >
        >I'll certainly need someone's name to quote, ideally
        >I'd like the name of the client company if possible.
        >So "Mike Beedle worked on an e-commerce project with
        >100+ people for a benefits company" is good, but
        >"Ken Schwaber and Jeff Sutherland did a project of
        >100+ people at IDX is better". You can reply to the
        >list, or to me directly. The list is better as it
        >informs everyone, but if there's something you'd
        >like to tell me in confidence then do send that to me.

        Martin:

        Here is a large project story.

        In March of 2000, there were only three Internet-based
        applications at Caremark Inc. Two of them were
        based on servlet technology and one applet based,
        and there wasn't anything reused among applications.

        As of December of 2001, there are 12 on-line applications
        in production, and 10 more to be delivered over the
        next year. And most applications reuse in different
        amounts: 1) large-grained business components (~10%),
        2) business services (~10%), 3) transactions (~90%),
        4) business objects (~90% and architectural services (~100%).

        The first system, which consisted of one application
        and the first release of the architectural services was
        released in June of 2000. The second and third
        followed shortly in July. The fourth was released
        to production in December. And since then, all of the
        other applications have been delivered as of December
        of 2001, including the rewrites of the original 3
        applications.

        By end of 2002, we expect to convert 75% of the
        mission-critical business for this 4 billion dollar
        business.

        The initial system delivery was delivered by using
        a weak version of Scrum, that only involved
        the Backlog, an informal Spring, and informal
        Scrums to solve problems. By the second release of
        the system, we used a full Scrum environment for
        the shared resources.

        Moreover, most applications teams have chosen
        the Scrum techniques to manage their projects,
        and most implement many of the XP practices, but
        with a wide range of acceptance. Some teams
        implement all XP practices but replace the
        XP "planning game" with Scrum, and some other
        teams implement a mere handful of XP practices.

        I hope this is helpful. Please contact me
        directly if you have any questions,

        - Mike
        http://www.mikebeedle.com
      • Werner Christian Meier-Zirngibl
        Mike: how many people, or function points, or whatever else metric that is usefull for measuring the size of projects, are we talking about here? Best Regards,
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 12, 2001
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          Mike:
           
          how many people, or function points, or whatever else metric that is usefull for measuring the size of projects, are we talking about here?
           
          Best Regards,
            Werner Meier Zirngibl
          --
           
          Attention, dates in calendar are closer than they appear!
          -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
          Von: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
          Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. Dezember 2001 06:12
          An: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com; mfowlerlists@...
          Betreff: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Looking for info on large Scrum projects


          Martin Fowler writes:
          >On Wednesday I've got a meeting with one of those IT
          >industry analysts (Giga). In a recent survey they said
          >that one of the disadvantages of agile methods is
          >that they don't apply to large projects. I know the
          >Scrum community knows otherwise. So I'm looking for
          >some quick counter-examples for them. All I need is
          >a paragraph describing the project, including the
          >rough team size.
          >
          >I'll certainly need someone's name to quote, ideally
          >I'd like the name of the client company if possible.
          >So "Mike Beedle worked on an e-commerce project with
          >100+ people for a benefits company" is good, but
          >"Ken Schwaber and Jeff Sutherland did a project of
          >100+ people at IDX is better". You can reply to the
          >list, or to me directly. The list is better as it
          >informs everyone, but if there's something you'd
          >like to tell me in confidence then do send that to me.

          Martin:

          Here is a large project story.

          In March of 2000, there were only three Internet-based
          applications at Caremark Inc.  Two of them were
          based on servlet technology and one applet based,
          and there wasn't anything reused among applications.

          As of December of 2001, there are 12 on-line applications
          in production, and 10 more to be delivered over the
          next year.  And most applications reuse in different
          amounts: 1) large-grained business components (~10%),
          2) business services (~10%), 3) transactions (~90%),
          4) business objects (~90% and architectural services (~100%).

          The first system, which consisted of one application
          and the first release of the architectural services was
          released in June of 2000.  The second and third
          followed shortly in July.  The fourth was released
          to production in December.  And since then, all of the
          other applications have been delivered as of December
          of 2001, including the rewrites of the original 3
          applications.

          By end of 2002, we expect to convert 75% of the
          mission-critical business for this 4 billion dollar
          business.

          The initial system delivery was delivered by using
          a weak version of Scrum, that only involved
          the Backlog, an informal Spring, and informal
          Scrums to solve problems.  By the second release of
          the system, we used a full Scrum environment for
          the shared resources.

          Moreover, most applications teams have chosen
          the Scrum techniques to manage their projects,
          and most implement many of the XP practices, but
          with a wide range of acceptance.  Some teams
          implement all XP practices but replace the
          XP "planning game" with Scrum, and some other
          teams implement a mere handful of XP practices.

          I hope this is helpful.  Please contact me
          directly if you have any questions,

          - Mike
            http://www.mikebeedle.com

          To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


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        • Mike Beedle
          ... Werner: I don t have an exact count. However, there are 3-10 people per team, and on the average probably 5. That would make our total count something
          Message 4 of 5 , Dec 12, 2001
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            Werner Christian Meier-Zirngibl wrote:
            > Mike:
            >
            > how many people, or function points, or whatever
            > else metric that is usefull for measuring the
            > size of projects, are we talking about here?

            Werner:

            I don't have an exact count. However, there
            are 3-10 people per team, and on the average
            probably 5.

            That would make our total count something like:

            5x12 + shared resources.

            Shared resources, if you include management are:

            - 12 managers
            - 9 architecture people
            - 5 system support
            - 5 testing team

            Total people involved in production systems now =
            60+31 = ~91

            Total stories, is harder to evaluate, so this number
            might be less accurate. We had about 20 stories
            per application, including reports, so there must be
            something in the order of:

            12x20 ~ 240 stories

            Like in most systems, some stories are easy, CRUD
            like, and some very complex involving as many
            as 20 independent transactions.

            In the future, the average number will grow
            dramatically because there are a couple of
            applications that get to be as large as 200
            stories,

            - Mike
            http://www.mikebeedle.com
          • Ken Schwaber
            Werner, The core IDX application was measured by Jeff Sutherland. I believe that there were 12,000 function points, a really dense application. The radiology
            Message 5 of 5 , Dec 12, 2001
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              Werner,
              The core IDX application was measured by Jeff Sutherland. I believe that
              there were 12,000 function points, a really dense application. The radiology
              application, developed from scratch, was 4-5000 function points.
              Ken Schwaber

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 10:52 AM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Looking for info on large Scrum projects



              Werner Christian Meier-Zirngibl wrote:
              > Mike:
              >
              > how many people, or function points, or whatever
              > else metric that is usefull for measuring the
              > size of projects, are we talking about here?

              Werner:

              I don't have an exact count. However, there
              are 3-10 people per team, and on the average
              probably 5.

              That would make our total count something like:

              5x12 + shared resources.

              Shared resources, if you include management are:

              - 12 managers
              - 9 architecture people
              - 5 system support
              - 5 testing team

              Total people involved in production systems now =
              60+31 = ~91

              Total stories, is harder to evaluate, so this number
              might be less accurate. We had about 20 stories
              per application, including reports, so there must be
              something in the order of:

              12x20 ~ 240 stories

              Like in most systems, some stories are easy, CRUD
              like, and some very complex involving as many
              as 20 independent transactions.

              In the future, the average number will grow
              dramatically because there are a couple of
              applications that get to be as large as 200
              stories,

              - Mike
              http://www.mikebeedle.com

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