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Re: Meetings and planning

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  • Michael James
    I thought Alexey s message was spot on. Scrum requires a dedicated, cross-functional team in a position to make commitments to deliver complete vertical slices
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 10, 2007
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      I thought Alexey's message was spot on.

      Scrum requires a dedicated, cross-functional team in a position to make commitments
      to deliver complete vertical slices of product within a short fixed iteration. It
      doesn't sound like you've got dedicated team members yet.

      Scrum also requires a Product Owner to prioritize a Product Backlog -- I'm not
      sure what your manager is doing qualifies. The Product Owner, Team, and a
      facilitator called a ScrumMaster all need to attend a Sprint Planning Meeting.
      The main purpose of that is to negotiate what will be demonstrated at the end
      of the Sprint. Planning how you'll accomplish that is secondary because it
      will change as you start the work anyway.

      "Forseeing problems" sounds like a waste of time except that it may
      affect how much work your team is willing to accept. You'll definitely have
      problems, but probably not the ones you forsee.

      --mj

      Michael James
      http://www.danube.com
      http://scrumworkspro.com

      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Max Pendyschtschuk <gotischerose@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Ïðèâ³ò, Îëåêñ³é!
      >
      > I thik you misunderstood me, or it was my bad explanation. I mean meeting, where
      team plans next sprint. I want all participants to join this process (now manager gives
      working area for the next cycle (=sprint in our company), and team members divide it
      (alone), describe (alone) and so on, then 1-1 meetings, synchronization checking meeting,
      brrr...). I want to see one meeting, where all members will plan next cycle, foresee some
      problems and their solution, synchronize task implementation, discuss previous problems,
      look for solutions, ideas. And so on. Result of meeting - (the best :-)) plan for next cycle.
      But we can't find solution how to implement such meetings with designers and testers,
      cause they can be involved in many projects...
      >
      > Âñüîãî íàéêðàùîãî!
      >
      > Alexey Krivitsky <alexeykrivitsky@...> schrieb:
      > Hi Max,
      >
      > I'd make one big meeting with the team, testers, designer and managers to let the team
      > demonstrate the latest product increment, describe the problems they've been having
      > and get the immediate feedback.
      > After the demo and the related discussions the ScrumMaster can help the team to
      represent the release burndown chart updated with the latest velocity learned,
      > which will the base of further open discussions related to project planning, budgeting,
      etc.
      >
      > If properly scheduled and done regularly (say every second week) this all can take one to
      two hours depending on your project/team size,
      >
      > If the manager wish to discuss things that don't influence the team in the nearest
      sprints,
      > this can be done afterwards when the demo is over when the team leaves.
      > I am sure the attendees will be focused enough after seeing the software and talking
      with the team.
      >
      > //Alexey
      >
      >
      >
      > __________________________________________________
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      > Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen
      Massenmails.
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      >
    • Basharat Wani
      Max, Here is what we do,In our development we are using Stand Up Meeting Every Day, keeping focus on the below mentioned tasks What we did yesterday? What we
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 10, 2007
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        Max,
         
        Here is what we do,In our development we are using Stand Up Meeting Every Day, keeping focus on the below mentioned tasks
         
        What we did yesterday?
        What we are doing Today
        Any Bottlenecks ?
         
        Then we have a Separate Planning Meeting (Next Sprint) ) for Defining and Identifying the features from the Product Back Log que.
         
         
        Thanks
        Basharat


        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Max Pendyshchuk
        Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 4:25 AM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Meetings and planning

        Hello!

        I have some questions about meetings. We have e.g. managers meeting
        and little project meeting. First - for managers, second - for
        project participants. Managers meeting we have on Thursday and
        project meetings on Friday.
        We want to change our planning system and move project meeting on
        Thursday and make it bigger - here we will discuss everything about
        project, plan it together and so on.
        On project meeting managers discuss project progress, so it is
        logical to make this project after project meeting.
        But there are some problems - on managers meeting they discuss some
        another thing, which can influence planning, e.g. another meetings
        (common).
        Another problem - tester and designer - they are in every team. But
        not every week we should test all projects, and not every week all
        projects need new design... So our project meeting should be
        dynamical (in time)...
        Situation with tester can be simplified - we will just say which
        projects should be tested, and he will plan it (without project
        meeting). But what to do with designer? She should synchronize her
        task with developers.. .

        Can anybody advice how to conduct those related meetings, and what to
        do with testers and designers - how to synchronize their tasks with
        another team members?

        Maybe link / book about planning and meetings

        Thanks in advance.

      • Max Pendyschtschuk
        Thanks for reply (for you and for Michael James) I mean a little bit another... Ok, I will change question a little - 1. how should be depended project
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 10, 2007
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          Thanks for reply (for you and for Michael James)
           
          I mean a little bit another... Ok, I will change question a little -
           
          1. how should be depended project meetings and managers meeting (I think some kind of those metings has any company)? Especially when we will think, that project meeting can show project progress, which can (and will) be discussed on managers meeting; and managers meeting can influence planning (because of some meetings or actions as conclusion of such meeting).
           
          2. what to do when sometimes it can be inpossible to gather all team members (in my situation it is designers and testers) because of projects interaction.
           
          Maybe to divide managers meeting on two part - first before project meetings (to know about some actions before planning) and after (to know progress). Or leave this meeting before project meetings (and project manager will give his opinion about progress).
           
          About the second question - it suffers me more. Testers and designers - they are like special sub-team - they influence developers' planning, but I can't say that they will join us.. because of projects interaction...
           
          So that's were the questions.
           
          Thanks for interests and wish to help.

          Basharat Wani <bbw@...> schrieb:
           
          Max,
           
          Here is what we do,In our development we are using Stand Up Meeting Every Day, keeping focus on the below mentioned tasks
           
          What we did yesterday?
          What we are doing Today
          Any Bottlenecks ?
           
          Then we have a Separate Planning Meeting (Next Sprint) ) for Defining and Identifying the features from the Product Back Log que.
           
           
          Thanks
          Basharat



          Jetzt Mails schnell in einem Vorschaufenster überfliegen. Dies und viel mehr bietet das neue Yahoo! Mail .

        • rsagb007
          Hi, your questions sounds like the question what was the first ? The egg or the chicken ? First we should have the same understanding of manger meetings and
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 10, 2007
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            Hi,

            your questions sounds like the question what was the first ? The egg
            or the chicken ?

            First we should have the same understanding of "manger meetings" and
            "project team meetings".
            Let me introduce my understandig:
            What to discuss in manger meetings:
            - status and progress
            - problems
            - decissions that cannot be made by the projectmanageer
            - get an o.k. for going forward to the next step
            nothing more
            The manager meeting should be finished in one hour.
            Frequency: 4 Weeks, before major milestones (gateway meetings)

            What to discuss in project meetings:
            I usually use two kinds of team-meetings:
            1.) with the whole team (the last project has round about 30 persons)
            2.) little project team meetings every day
            and especially
            planning meeting with the group-leeders after 1.)
            Frequency: weekly Duration: one hour

            What to discuss in the great team meeting (point 1):
            - gerneral problems of the project
            - next steps
            - project internals (without the customer of course)
            - the results of the manager meetings (if the knowledge of some parts
            is necessary for the whole team)
            - general conditions
            Frequency: daily Duration: one hour

            What to discuss in the great team meeting (point 2):
            - what have we done yesterday ?
            - what to do today (if there is a change to the plan)
            - actual problems
            frequency: one week befor aktual step ends and the next step has to be
            planned

            What to discuss in planning meetings with the group leeders:
            - general conditions and parameters

            I usually prefer an open information situation for everyone: no secrets.

            How to inform team members in absence:
            simple: a protocol - do it simple, write it in html for the project
            intranet site, change the team member who writes it every week.
            For the manager meeting you have to write a management overview
            (because it's your job as an project manager). publish it on the
            project server (or as an link in the project intranet).

            Don't be a slave to the plan, don't be a slave of PM-tools.

            Hope this answer helps.

            Best

            Reiner Schindler
            http://www.software-project-management.de


            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Max Pendyschtschuk
            <gotischerose@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks for reply (for you and for Michael James)
            >
            > I mean a little bit another... Ok, I will change question a little -
            >
            > 1. how should be depended project meetings and managers meeting (I
            think some kind of those metings has any company)? Especially when we
            will think, that project meeting can show project progress, which can
            (and will) be discussed on managers meeting; and managers meeting can
            influence planning (because of some meetings or actions as conclusion
            of such meeting).
            >
            > 2. what to do when sometimes it can be inpossible to gather all
            team members (in my situation it is designers and testers) because of
            projects interaction.
            >
            > Maybe to divide managers meeting on two part - first before
            project meetings (to know about some actions before planning) and
            after (to know progress). Or leave this meeting before project
            meetings (and project manager will give his opinion about progress).
            >
            > About the second question - it suffers me more. Testers and
            designers - they are like special sub-team - they influence
            developers' planning, but I can't say that they will join us.. because
            of projects interaction...
            >
            > So that's were the questions.
            >
            > Thanks for interests and wish to help.
            >
            > Basharat Wani <bbw@...> schrieb:
            >
            > Max,
            >
            > Here is what we do,In our development we are using Stand Up
            Meeting Every Day, keeping focus on the below mentioned tasks
            >
            > What we did yesterday?
            > What we are doing Today
            > Any Bottlenecks ?
            >
            > Then we have a Separate Planning Meeting (Next Sprint) ) for
            Defining and Identifying the features from the Product Back Log que.
            >
            >
            > Thanks
            > Basharat
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Jetzt Mails schnell in einem Vorschaufenster überfliegen. Dies und
            viel mehr bietet das neue Yahoo! Mail .
            >
          • Michael James
            Uh, this doesn t sound like Scrum to me. Isn t this a Scrum discussion group? --mj Michael James, CST http://www.danube.com/ http://www.scrumworkspro.com
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 10, 2007
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              Uh, this doesn't sound like Scrum to me. Isn't this a Scrum discussion group?

              --mj
              Michael James, CST
              http://www.danube.com/
              http://www.scrumworkspro.com


              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "rsagb007" <kontakt@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi,
              >
              > your questions sounds like the question what was the first ? The egg
              > or the chicken ?
              >
              > First we should have the same understanding of "manger meetings" and
              > "project team meetings".
              > Let me introduce my understandig:
              > What to discuss in manger meetings:
              > - status and progress
              > - problems
              > - decissions that cannot be made by the projectmanageer
              > - get an o.k. for going forward to the next step
              > nothing more
              > The manager meeting should be finished in one hour.
              > Frequency: 4 Weeks, before major milestones (gateway meetings)
              >
              > What to discuss in project meetings:
              > I usually use two kinds of team-meetings:
              > 1.) with the whole team (the last project has round about 30 persons)
              > 2.) little project team meetings every day
              > and especially
              > planning meeting with the group-leeders after 1.)
              > Frequency: weekly Duration: one hour
              >
              > What to discuss in the great team meeting (point 1):
              > - gerneral problems of the project
              > - next steps
              > - project internals (without the customer of course)
              > - the results of the manager meetings (if the knowledge of some parts
              > is necessary for the whole team)
              > - general conditions
              > Frequency: daily Duration: one hour
              >
              > What to discuss in the great team meeting (point 2):
              > - what have we done yesterday ?
              > - what to do today (if there is a change to the plan)
              > - actual problems
              > frequency: one week befor aktual step ends and the next step has to be
              > planned
              >
              > What to discuss in planning meetings with the group leeders:
              > - general conditions and parameters
              >
              > I usually prefer an open information situation for everyone: no secrets.
              >
              > How to inform team members in absence:
              > simple: a protocol - do it simple, write it in html for the project
              > intranet site, change the team member who writes it every week.
              > For the manager meeting you have to write a management overview
              > (because it's your job as an project manager). publish it on the
              > project server (or as an link in the project intranet).
              >
              > Don't be a slave to the plan, don't be a slave of PM-tools.
              >
              > Hope this answer helps.
              >
              > Best
              >
              > Reiner Schindler
              > http://www.software-project-management.de
              >
              >
              > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Max Pendyschtschuk
              > <gotischerose@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Thanks for reply (for you and for Michael James)
              > >
              > > I mean a little bit another... Ok, I will change question a little -
              > >
              > > 1. how should be depended project meetings and managers meeting (I
              > think some kind of those metings has any company)? Especially when we
              > will think, that project meeting can show project progress, which can
              > (and will) be discussed on managers meeting; and managers meeting can
              > influence planning (because of some meetings or actions as conclusion
              > of such meeting).
              > >
              > > 2. what to do when sometimes it can be inpossible to gather all
              > team members (in my situation it is designers and testers) because of
              > projects interaction.
              > >
              > > Maybe to divide managers meeting on two part - first before
              > project meetings (to know about some actions before planning) and
              > after (to know progress). Or leave this meeting before project
              > meetings (and project manager will give his opinion about progress).
              > >
              > > About the second question - it suffers me more. Testers and
              > designers - they are like special sub-team - they influence
              > developers' planning, but I can't say that they will join us.. because
              > of projects interaction...
              > >
              > > So that's were the questions.
              > >
              > > Thanks for interests and wish to help.
              > >
              > > Basharat Wani <bbw@> schrieb:
              > >
              > > Max,
              > >
              > > Here is what we do,In our development we are using Stand Up
              > Meeting Every Day, keeping focus on the below mentioned tasks
              > >
              > > What we did yesterday?
              > > What we are doing Today
              > > Any Bottlenecks ?
              > >
              > > Then we have a Separate Planning Meeting (Next Sprint) ) for
              > Defining and Identifying the features from the Product Back Log que.
              > >
              > >
              > > Thanks
              > > Basharat
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > > Jetzt Mails schnell in einem Vorschaufenster überfliegen. Dies und
              > viel mehr bietet das neue Yahoo! Mail .
              > >
              >
            • Alan Dayley
              ... Hash: SHA1 - ---[clip]--- ... - ---[clip]--- ... A one hour meeting of 30 people every day? That s very expensive in every way possible! Maybe what you
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 10, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
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                Hash: SHA1

                - ---[clip]---
                > What to discuss in project meetings:
                > I usually use two kinds of team-meetings:
                > 1.) with the whole team (the last project has round about 30 persons)
                - ---[clip]---
                > What to discuss in the great team meeting (point 1):
                > - gerneral problems of the project
                > - next steps
                > - project internals (without the customer of course)
                > - the results of the manager meetings (if the knowledge of some parts
                > is necessary for the whole team)
                > - general conditions
                > Frequency: daily Duration: one hour

                A one hour meeting of 30 people every day? That's very expensive in
                every way possible! Maybe what you do requires this but surely 80% or
                more of that meeting doesn't effect all of those people at once. I
                would not want to work there.

                I'm new to scrum but this doesn't sound like a scrum process to me.

                Alan


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              • Max Pendyschtschuk
                Hallo Reiner, besten Dank fuer deine Antwort! I totally agree with Alan Dayley - every day meeting for 30 team members.. my managers will dislike it.. Our
                Message 7 of 19 , Jan 10, 2007
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                  Hallo Reiner, besten Dank fuer deine Antwort!
                   
                  I totally agree with Alan Dayley - every day meeting for 30 team members.. my managers will dislike it.. Our teams are smaller (usually 3-4 developers with tester and designer, but can be more), we had dailly meetings some time ago and it didn'h help us, so now we have only weekly meeting.
                   
                  About "egg and chicken" - you have a right :)
                   
                  "team members in absence" - this issue is good, but an example from me:
                  suppose we have 5 project, which are in development process. The main design for each is done, but every project need some design impoving. We have one designer for it. Some of developers take part in 2 projects - even so we can simply make timetable for project meetings without designer, some projects have anathoer manager (each ~ 1 hour). But on each meeting we can plan next week, it means that designer should join each meeting, because she need not more then 1 day for each impoving (for 2 projects only half od workday, just to change some colors positions etc.). And now, with designer, we have a problem.
                  Without designer we can make some of project meetings parallel, but with designer - not.
                  Ok, we will do it in series, but it will mean, that some developer will have the timetable like this:
                  09:00 - 10:00 - development
                  10:00 - 11:00 - meeting #1
                  11:00 - 12:00 - development
                  12:00 - 13:00 - meeting #2
                  13:00 - 13:30 - developmet
                  13:30 - 14:30 - lunch time
                  14:30 - 18:00 - development
                  This story is maybe not so ordinary, but sometimes we can have it.
                  If at least two projects will plan "new deign implementation" on Tuesday - it mean that this planning will be broken.
                   
                  Now we don't have big project meeting, our little meetings, like 1-1 and some another parts of planning is too strange. I (and some another developers) have a wish to change this situation, our general manager and boss said "ok, give us another plan and we will implement it, if everything is good". First our drafts (just our thoughts, how to change process) they liked. But when we will give the whole our vision of process, with big meetings, I think the first they will ask is about example above (situation with designers and testers).
                   
                  liebe Gruesse

                  rsagb007 <kontakt@...> schrieb:
                  Hi,

                  your questions sounds like the question what was the first ? The egg
                  or the chicken ?

                  First we should have the same understanding of "manger meetings" and
                  "project team meetings".
                  Let me introduce my understandig:
                  What to discuss in manger meetings:
                  - status and progress
                  - problems
                  - decissions that cannot be made by the projectmanageer
                  - get an o.k. for going forward to the next step
                  nothing more
                  The manager meeting should be finished in one hour.
                  Frequency: 4 Weeks, before major milestones (gateway meetings)

                  What to discuss in project meetings:
                  I usually use two kinds of team-meetings:
                  1.) with the whole team (the last project has round about 30 persons)
                  2.) little project team meetings every day
                  and especially
                  planning meeting with the group-leeders after 1.)
                  Frequency: weekly Duration: one hour

                  What to discuss in the great team meeting (point 1):
                  - gerneral problems of the project
                  - next steps
                  - project internals (without the customer of course)
                  - the results of the manager meetings (if the knowledge of some parts
                  is necessary for the whole team)
                  - general conditions
                  Frequency: daily Duration: one hour

                  What to discuss in the great team meeting (point 2):
                  - what have we done yesterday ?
                  - what to do today (if there is a change to the plan)
                  - actual problems
                  frequency: one week befor aktual step ends and the next step has to be
                  planned

                  What to discuss in planning meetings with the group leeders:
                  - general conditions and parameters

                  I usually prefer an open information situation for everyone: no secrets.

                  How to inform team members in absence:
                  simple: a protocol - do it simple, write it in html for the project
                  intranet site, change the team member who writes it every week.
                  For the manager meeting you have to write a management overview
                  (because it's your job as an project manager). publish it on the
                  project server (or as an link in the project intranet).

                  Don't be a slave to the plan, don't be a slave of PM-tools.

                  Hope this answer helps.

                  Best

                  Reiner Schindler
                  http://www.software-project-management.de



                  Yahoo! 360° – Bloggen und Leute treffen. Erstellen Sie jetzt Ihre eigene Seite – kostenlos!.

                • Steven Gordon
                  ... Good! The most important thing Alan said was that what you are not doing does not seem like Scrum. Since you totally agree with him, why not try doing
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jan 11, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On 1/11/07, Max Pendyschtschuk <gotischerose@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hallo Reiner, besten Dank fuer deine Antwort!
                    >
                    > I totally agree with Alan Dayley

                    Good! The most important thing Alan said was that what you are not
                    doing does not seem like Scrum. Since you totally agree with him, why
                    not try doing Scrum properly for a few months and see if your meeting
                    issues (and a lot of your other process smells) go away?

                    Each project needs a devoted team with all the necessary skill sets
                    for at least the duration of each sprint. Those devoted teams should
                    be developing software as opposed to spending much time in meetings.

                    More projects than teams? Then either drop the lowest priority
                    projects until the higher priority projects are complete or have teams
                    switch to a different project after each sprint. The second option is
                    more feasible with shorter sprints.

                    Scarce resources? Cross-train your people by having a few per team
                    work directly with the scarce resource on the work for their project
                    until they can carry on without the scarce resource.

                    In any case, you should not expect good advice here about how to do a
                    half-baked software development process. If you can get your
                    organization to start doing Scrum, then you can expect good advice
                    here.

                    Steve

                    > - every day meeting for 30 team members..
                    > my managers will dislike it.. Our teams are smaller (usually 3-4 developers
                    > with tester and designer, but can be more), we had dailly meetings some time
                    > ago and it didn'h help us, so now we have only weekly meeting.
                    >
                    > About "egg and chicken" - you have a right :)
                    >
                    > "team members in absence" - this issue is good, but an example from me:
                    > suppose we have 5 project, which are in development process. The main design
                    > for each is done, but every project need some design impoving. We have one
                    > designer for it. Some of developers take part in 2 projects - even so we can
                    > simply make timetable for project meetings without designer, some projects
                    > have anathoer manager (each ~ 1 hour). But on each meeting we can plan next
                    > week, it means that designer should join each meeting, because she need not
                    > more then 1 day for each impoving (for 2 projects only half od workday, just
                    > to change some colors positions etc.). And now, with designer, we have a
                    > problem.
                    > Without designer we can make some of project meetings parallel, but with
                    > designer - not.
                    > Ok, we will do it in series, but it will mean, that some developer will have
                    > the timetable like this:
                    > 09:00 - 10:00 - development
                    > 10:00 - 11:00 - meeting #1
                    > 11:00 - 12:00 - development
                    > 12:00 - 13:00 - meeting #2
                    > 13:00 - 13:30 - developmet
                    > 13:30 - 14:30 - lunch time
                    > 14:30 - 18:00 - development
                    > This story is maybe not so ordinary, but sometimes we can have it.
                    > If at least two projects will plan "new deign implementation" on Tuesday -
                    > it mean that this planning will be broken.
                    >
                    > Now we don't have big project meeting, our little meetings, like 1-1 and
                    > some another parts of planning is too strange. I (and some another
                    > developers) have a wish to change this situation, our general manager and
                    > boss said "ok, give us another plan and we will implement it, if everything
                    > is good". First our drafts (just our thoughts, how to change process) they
                    > liked. But when we will give the whole our vision of process, with big
                    > meetings, I think the first they will ask is about example above (situation
                    > with designers and testers).
                    >
                    > liebe Gruesse
                    >
                    > rsagb007 <kontakt@...> schrieb:
                    >
                    > Hi,
                    >
                    > your questions sounds like the question what was the first ? The egg
                    > or the chicken ?
                    >
                    > First we should have the same understanding of "manger meetings" and
                    > "project team meetings".
                    > Let me introduce my understandig:
                    > What to discuss in manger meetings:
                    > - status and progress
                    > - problems
                    > - decissions that cannot be made by the projectmanageer
                    > - get an o.k. for going forward to the next step
                    > nothing more
                    > The manager meeting should be finished in one hour.
                    > Frequency: 4 Weeks, before major milestones (gateway meetings)
                    >
                    > What to discuss in project meetings:
                    > I usually use two kinds of team-meetings:
                    > 1.) with the whole team (the last project has round about 30 persons)
                    > 2.) little project team meetings every day
                    > and especially
                    > planning meeting with the group-leeders after 1.)
                    > Frequency: weekly Duration: one hour
                    >
                    > What to discuss in the great team meeting (point 1):
                    > - gerneral problems of the project
                    > - next steps
                    > - project internals (without the customer of course)
                    > - the results of the manager meetings (if the knowledge of some parts
                    > is necessary for the whole team)
                    > - general conditions
                    > Frequency: daily Duration: one hour
                    >
                    > What to discuss in the great team meeting (point 2):
                    > - what have we done yesterday ?
                    > - what to do today (if there is a change to the plan)
                    > - actual problems
                    > frequency: one week befor aktual step ends and the next step has to be
                    > planned
                    >
                    > What to discuss in planning meetings with the group leeders:
                    > - general conditions and parameters
                    >
                    > I usually prefer an open information situation for everyone: no secrets.
                    >
                    > How to inform team members in absence:
                    > simple: a protocol - do it simple, write it in html for the project
                    > intranet site, change the team member who writes it every week.
                    > For the manager meeting you have to write a management overview
                    > (because it's your job as an project manager). publish it on the
                    > project server (or as an link in the project intranet).
                    >
                    > Don't be a slave to the plan, don't be a slave of PM-tools.
                    >
                    > Hope this answer helps.
                    >
                    > Best
                    >
                    > Reiner Schindler
                    > http://www.software-project-management.de
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > Yahoo! 360° – Bloggen und Leute treffen. Erstellen Sie jetzt Ihre eigene
                    > Seite – kostenlos!.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Max Pendyschtschuk
                    Hello, Steve. I think you have forgotten my big post What is wrong with this process (or something like this). This was one of your replies: This is the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jan 11, 2007
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                      Hello, Steve.
                      I think you have forgotten my big post "What is wrong with this process" (or something like this). This was one of your replies:
                       
                      "This is the root of the problem.
                       
                      Under the current process, the developers pay for management mistakes instead of management or customers, so it is unlikely that any other process could yield better results from the narrow point of view of management.
                       
                      Unless there is a shortage of developers there willing to work this way, there is no hope for change.  My conclusion is that this is a labor power issue rather than a process issue.  Unfortunately, a rational discussion of the process issues will have no practical affect on your situation at all.
                       
                      Steve"
                       
                      So we have done here something, that sounded like impossible - we will change our process. It was first good step.
                      > The most important thing Alan said was that what you are not doing does not seem like Scrum
                      I think I don't understand you here:
                      what you are NOT doing does NOT seem like Scrum
                       
                      like mathematic, I can transforma it in 
                      what you are doing does seem like Scrum
                      (de Mourgan's rules), but I think you didn't mean that..
                       
                      So we should try to give our daily meetings again?
                       
                      About projects and teams - it doesn't depand on me and developer. I think we will talk to our managers/boss about this, because it is really bad now. We will try...

                      >In any case, you should not expect good advice here about how to do a
                      >half-baked software development process. If you can get your
                      >organization to start doing Scrum, then you can expect good advice
                      >here.
                       
                      Actually that, what we use, is EVO (with cycle = 1 week, sprint in Scrum as I know), But I can say that our implementation is called in world like EVO. Our Boss just want to implement EVO and so on. But if we will start to do Scrum, and say for Boss that it is EVO, I think nothing bad will happen :)
                       
                      As I know, EVO and Scrum are similar.
                      thanks for answer.
                      best regards
                       


                      Yahoo! Messenger - >kostenlos* mit Familie und Freunden von PC zu PC telefonieren .
                    • Steven Gordon
                      ... Sorry, Max, did not connect the two threads in my mind. ... Sorry, the first NOT was an unintentional typo. Most of the process problems could be fixed by
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jan 11, 2007
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                        On 1/11/07, Max Pendyschtschuk <gotischerose@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello, Steve.
                        > I think you have forgotten my big post "What is wrong with this process" (or
                        > something like this). This was one of your replies:
                        >
                        > "This is the root of the problem.
                        >
                        > Under the current process, the developers pay for management mistakes
                        > instead of management or customers, so it is unlikely that any other process
                        > could yield better results from the narrow point of view of management.
                        >
                        > Unless there is a shortage of developers there willing to work this way,
                        > there is no hope for change. My conclusion is that this is a labor power
                        > issue rather than a process issue. Unfortunately, a rational discussion of
                        > the process issues will have no practical affect on your situation at all.
                        >
                        > Steve"
                        >

                        Sorry, Max, did not connect the two threads in my mind.

                        > So we have done here something, that sounded like impossible - we will
                        > change our process. It was first good step.
                        >
                        > > The most important thing Alan said was that what you are not doing does
                        > not seem like Scrum
                        > I think I don't understand you here:
                        > what you are NOT doing does NOT seem like Scrum
                        >

                        Sorry, the first NOT was an unintentional typo. Most of the process
                        problems could be fixed by doing Scrum instead of some ad hoc
                        variation.

                        > like mathematic, I can transforma it in
                        > what you are doing does seem like Scrum
                        > (de Mourgan's rules), but I think you didn't mean that..
                        >
                        > So we should try to give our daily meetings again?

                        The daily meeting in Scrum is one per project where each person
                        working on the project just stands and says:
                        - what they did since the last meeting,
                        - what thye plan to do until the next meeting,
                        - what obstacles they are facing.
                        It should take just a few minutes.

                        Long sit-down discussions should only be at sprint boundaries to
                        review the last sprint and plan the next, or at other times when
                        absolutely necessary to resolve obstacles.

                        >
                        > About projects and teams - it doesn't depand on me and developer. I think we
                        > will talk to our managers/boss about this, because it is really bad now. We
                        > will try...
                        >

                        Would you management consider a presentation by an outside consultant?
                        Where are you located?

                        > >In any case, you should not expect good advice here about how to do a
                        > >half-baked software development process. If you can get your
                        > >organization to start doing Scrum, then you can expect good advice
                        > >here.
                        >
                        > Actually that, what we use, is EVO (with cycle = 1 week, sprint in Scrum as
                        > I know), But I can say that our implementation is called in world like EVO.
                        > Our Boss just want to implement EVO and so on. But if we will start to do
                        > Scrum, and say for Boss that it is EVO, I think nothing bad will happen :)
                        >
                        > As I know, EVO and Scrum are similar.
                        >

                        I do not know EVO. Is there an EVO community that can help you do EVO
                        the way it is intended?

                        > thanks for answer.
                        > best regards
                      • rsagb007
                        Hi all, uuuups, my fault. And therefore you re right with your hard review....:-) The great team meeting that i made was every month. For a better
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jan 11, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi all,

                          uuuups, my fault.
                          And therefore you're right with your hard review....:-)
                          The great team meeting that i made was every month.

                          For a better understanding: the focus was on the team meetings every day.

                          And, what i made was particually SCRUM, sometimes more, sometimes
                          less. The gret problem was the mixed team. No one of the team members
                          had experience in working in great teams outside of the own company,
                          and no one worked in teams until this project and 50% of them were new
                          developers from other companies.
                          I spend 4 months to form a team, and believe me, it wasn't easy.
                          Especially my management don't understand the problems of team
                          building and the dynamic team process.

                          To the additional information i will answer in a seperate mail.

                          Best

                          Reiner


                          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Max Pendyschtschuk
                          <gotischerose@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hallo Reiner, besten Dank fuer deine Antwort!
                          >
                          > I totally agree with Alan Dayley - every day meeting for 30 team
                          members.. my managers will dislike it.. Our teams are smaller (usually
                          3-4 developers with tester and designer, but can be more), we had
                          dailly meetings some time ago and it didn'h help us, so now we have
                          only weekly meeting.
                          >
                          > About "egg and chicken" - you have a right :)
                          >
                          > "team members in absence" - this issue is good, but an example
                          from me:
                          > suppose we have 5 project, which are in development process. The
                          main design for each is done, but every project need some design
                          impoving. We have one designer for it. Some of developers take part in
                          2 projects - even so we can simply make timetable for project meetings
                          without designer, some projects have anathoer manager (each ~ 1 hour).
                          But on each meeting we can plan next week, it means that designer
                          should join each meeting, because she need not more then 1 day for
                          each impoving (for 2 projects only half od workday, just to change
                          some colors positions etc.). And now, with designer, we have a problem.
                          > Without designer we can make some of project meetings parallel,
                          but with designer - not.
                          > Ok, we will do it in series, but it will mean, that some developer
                          will have the timetable like this:
                          > 09:00 - 10:00 - development
                          > 10:00 - 11:00 - meeting #1
                          > 11:00 - 12:00 - development
                          > 12:00 - 13:00 - meeting #2
                          > 13:00 - 13:30 - developmet
                          > 13:30 - 14:30 - lunch time
                          > 14:30 - 18:00 - development
                          > This story is maybe not so ordinary, but sometimes we can have it.
                          > If at least two projects will plan "new deign implementation" on
                          Tuesday - it mean that this planning will be broken.
                          >
                          > Now we don't have big project meeting, our little meetings, like
                          1-1 and some another parts of planning is too strange. I (and some
                          another developers) have a wish to change this situation, our general
                          manager and boss said "ok, give us another plan and we will implement
                          it, if everything is good". First our drafts (just our thoughts, how
                          to change process) they liked. But when we will give the whole our
                          vision of process, with big meetings, I think the first they will ask
                          is about example above (situation with designers and testers).
                          >
                          > liebe Gruesse
                          >
                          > rsagb007 <kontakt@...> schrieb:
                          > Hi,
                          >
                          > your questions sounds like the question what was the first ? The egg
                          > or the chicken ?
                          >
                          > First we should have the same understanding of "manger meetings" and
                          > "project team meetings".
                          > Let me introduce my understandig:
                          > What to discuss in manger meetings:
                          > - status and progress
                          > - problems
                          > - decissions that cannot be made by the projectmanageer
                          > - get an o.k. for going forward to the next step
                          > nothing more
                          > The manager meeting should be finished in one hour.
                          > Frequency: 4 Weeks, before major milestones (gateway meetings)
                          >
                          > What to discuss in project meetings:
                          > I usually use two kinds of team-meetings:
                          > 1.) with the whole team (the last project has round about 30 persons)
                          > 2.) little project team meetings every day
                          > and especially
                          > planning meeting with the group-leeders after 1.)
                          > Frequency: weekly Duration: one hour
                          >
                          > What to discuss in the great team meeting (point 1):
                          > - gerneral problems of the project
                          > - next steps
                          > - project internals (without the customer of course)
                          > - the results of the manager meetings (if the knowledge of some parts
                          > is necessary for the whole team)
                          > - general conditions
                          > Frequency: daily Duration: one hour
                          >
                          > What to discuss in the great team meeting (point 2):
                          > - what have we done yesterday ?
                          > - what to do today (if there is a change to the plan)
                          > - actual problems
                          > frequency: one week befor aktual step ends and the next step has to be
                          > planned
                          >
                          > What to discuss in planning meetings with the group leeders:
                          > - general conditions and parameters
                          >
                          > I usually prefer an open information situation for everyone: no secrets.
                          >
                          > How to inform team members in absence:
                          > simple: a protocol - do it simple, write it in html for the project
                          > intranet site, change the team member who writes it every week.
                          > For the manager meeting you have to write a management overview
                          > (because it's your job as an project manager). publish it on the
                          > project server (or as an link in the project intranet).
                          >
                          > Don't be a slave to the plan, don't be a slave of PM-tools.
                          >
                          > Hope this answer helps.
                          >
                          > Best
                          >
                          > Reiner Schindler
                          > http://www.software-project-management.de
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Yahoo! 360° – Bloggen und Leute treffen. Erstellen Sie jetzt Ihre
                          eigene Seite – kostenlos!.
                          >
                        • David A Barrett
                          ... not seem like Scrum ... Max, On a trivial note, your logic isn t right. Let s assume you re doing A, and you re not doing B. Steve said that B isn t C,
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jan 11, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            >> The most important thing Alan said was that what you are not doing does
                            not seem like Scrum
                            >I think I don't understand you here:
                            >what you are NOT doing does NOT seem like Scrum
                            >
                            >like mathematic, I can transforma it in
                            >what you are doing does seem like Scrum
                            >(de Mourgan's rules), but I think you didn't mean that..

                            Max,

                            On a trivial note, your logic isn't right. Let's assume you're doing A,
                            and you're not doing B. Steve said that B isn't C, which doesn't mean that
                            A is C. Now if he had said, "EVERYTHING you are not doing..." then maybe
                            the logic would hold (unless A and C overlap, in which case everything that
                            isn't A still wouldn't equal C).

                            I think Steve really meant that "what you ARE doing doesn't seem like
                            Scrum". I agree with him.

                            It would be very difficult to do Scrum with a single 30 member team. The
                            team needs to be small enough that they can hold a daily standup meeting in
                            10 minutes, and that they can come to a consensus and share goals in a
                            reasonable amount of time. 30 people are probably going to break up into
                            some quantity of smaller groups when they work anyways.

                            It seems like you are trying to do too much, too formal, and too fast at
                            the start. Why don't you try something like this:

                            1. Take a smaller group of people that naturally would be working together
                            on something and call them a team.
                            2. Gather them together and look at all of the work that they've already
                            got on their plate.
                            3. Decide what the most important things are.
                            4. Decide on reasonable time estimates for just the most important things
                            with the team.
                            5. Ask the team how much they honestly think they can do in some period of
                            time (30 days would be best).
                            6. Tell them to ignore everything else and work on just those things. If
                            they are getting pressure to do other stuff they can tell you in step 7.
                            7. Have a daily standup. Follow the rules for Daily Scrums; 10 minutes, 3
                            questions each.
                            8. Ensure that you clear any impediments identified during the daily
                            standup meeting.
                            9. Review the progress at the end of the time period. Show off the
                            achievements, order pizza in for lunch.
                            10. Rinse and repeat.

                            Voila! Scrum!

                            No tools, no metrics, no hassles. Focus on what you can do, and then focus
                            on getting it done. When it's done, learn from it. Adjust the process and
                            continually improve. That's the heart of Scrum.

                            Dave Barrett,
                            Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
                          • Max Pendyschtschuk
                            Hi, Steven Gordon schrieb: ... I understood, I have a long night for it :). I just thought about what did we have (our old daily
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jan 11, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi,

                              Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> schrieb:
                              On 1/11/07, Max Pendyschtschuk wrote:

                              >The daily meeting in Scrum is one per project where each person
                              >working on the project just stands and says:
                              >- what they did since the last meeting,
                              >- what thye plan to do until the next meeting,
                              >- what obstacles they are facing.
                              >It should take just a few minutes.
                              >Long sit-down discussions should only be at sprint boundaries to
                              >review the last sprint and plan the next, or at other times when
                              >absolutely necessary to resolve obstacles.
                               
                              I understood, I have a long night for it :). I just thought about what did we have (our old daily meetings).
                              When I started to work here they have only 2 meetings on the week, one of them in English (antother in Ukrainian).
                              But it wasn't such meeting as you advice me - it was more like common meetings - few project teams discussed their problems and tasks and so on.
                              To have daily meeting like you write above will be much more better, as conclusion manager will know progress and progect state... and we can leave managers
                              meeting (MM) before project (PM). So in this way I think my problem is resolved. Thanks.

                              >Would you management consider a presentation by an outside consultant?
                              >Where are you located?
                               
                              Ukraine (and Netherland), if you know about some forums, presentation in Kyiv or Amsterdam - make me known please.
                              I thought also about our situation - my boss said that he wants to improve our process too. He was here, made a workshop and then asked our feedbacks about
                              the current process. Unfortunatelly he got only 4 letters, and I don't understand another developer they say sometimes that they dislike something, but when boss or managers asked them,
                              they prefer to be silent. As conclusion my boss formed workgroup (where I am, and another 2 developers and 1 manager) which will try to change the way we act.
                              So I think all is in our hand. The most important thing is to server our ideas and conclusions good :)
                               
                              >I do not know EVO. Is there an EVO community that can help you do EVO
                              >the way it is intended?
                               
                              I think no, that's why I am here. EVO is very old (actually the oldest Agile process), and it is not popular today. And less known then Scrum, XP or UP.
                              Scrum is the most closest to EVO. If I have time, I will try to look for differences between EVO and Scrum and post here.
                               
                              thanks for answer.
                              best regards


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                            • Max Pendyschtschuk
                              Hi I understand you. We started to try Agile Process using one year ago, wy tried many thing, but actually they was bad. Management every time want to change
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jan 12, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi
                                 
                                I understand you. We started to try Agile Process using one year ago, wy tried many thing, but actually they was bad. Management every time want to change something but turn us in bad way. E.g. we had one period checking in the evening - before developer go home, he should show his task done, manager checks and if some bug is found - developer have to fix it. After task is 100% done he can go home. Not so good, it is better to have meetings in the morning, when developers are not tired, they can think etc...
                                 
                                Maybe the most important thing is wish to improve it and do it with developers together. And of course developers should understand why should we do it. Sometimes we don't have and it is bad. We had one developer, who didn't want to plan anything, he thought like "Give me keyboard and I will develop". He worked here 5 months and then left us...
                                 
                                Alles beste fuer deine Gesellschaft!
                                 
                                Max

                                rsagb007 <kontakt@...> schrieb:
                                Hi all,

                                uuuups, my fault.
                                And therefore you're right with your hard review....:-)
                                The great team meeting that i made was every month.

                                For a better understanding: the focus was on the team meetings every day.

                                And, what i made was particually SCRUM, sometimes more, sometimes
                                less. The gret problem was the mixed team. No one of the team members
                                had experience in working in great teams outside of the own company,
                                and no one worked in teams until this project and 50% of them were new
                                developers from other companies.
                                I spend 4 months to form a team, and believe me, it wasn't easy.
                                Especially my management don't understand the problems of team
                                building and the dynamic team process.

                                To the additional information i will answer in a seperate mail.

                                Best

                                Reiner


                                Der neue Internet Explorer 7 in deutscher Ausführung ist da !

                              • Max Pendyschtschuk
                                Oops... About 30 members + daily meetings it is not adressed for me, but it is reaaly interesting to read your opinion for both me and (I think) Reiner. About
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jan 12, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Oops... About 30 members + daily meetings it is not adressed for me, but it is reaaly interesting to read your opinion for both me and (I think) Reiner.
                                   
                                  About A, B, and C - I think you didn't understand me. Let say we have
                                  not A = not B
                                  - it means in another words, that A = B - it was what I meant, I just operated with negation (discrete mathematics, no more).
                                  Now in practice:
                                   
                                  what you are not doing does not seem like Scrum.
                                   
                                  I think it we can write so: 
                                  what you are not doing = does not seem like Scrum.
                                   
                                  A = what we are doing
                                  B = seem like Scrum
                                   
                                  not A = what you are not doing
                                  not B = does not seem like Scrum
                                   
                                  So => not A = not B => (with help of de Mourgan's rules) => A = B
                                   
                                  Where did you find the third letter? :)
                                   
                                  Anyway thanks for reply. With this A,B,C meybe we just don't understand each other :)
                                   
                                  regards.

                                  David A Barrett <dave.barrett@...> schrieb:

                                  >> The most important thing Alan said was that what you are not doing does
                                  not seem like Scrum
                                  >I think I don't understand you here:
                                  >what you are NOT doing does NOT seem like Scrum
                                  >
                                  >like mathematic, I can transforma it in
                                  >what you are doing does seem like Scrum
                                  >(de Mourgan's rules), but I think you didn't mean that..

                                  Max,

                                  On a trivial note, your logic isn't right. Let's assume you're doing A,
                                  and you're not doing B. Steve said that B isn't C, which doesn't mean that
                                  A is C. Now if he had said, "EVERYTHING you are not doing..." then maybe
                                  the logic would hold (unless A and C overlap, in which case everything that
                                  isn't A still wouldn't equal C).

                                  I think Steve really meant that "what you ARE doing doesn't seem like
                                  Scrum". I agree with him.

                                  It would be very difficult to do Scrum with a single 30 member team. The
                                  team needs to be small enough that they can hold a daily standup meeting in
                                  10 minutes, and that they can come to a consensus and share goals in a
                                  reasonable amount of time. 30 people are probably going to break up into
                                  some quantity of smaller groups when they work anyways.

                                  It seems like you are trying to do too much, too formal, and too fast at
                                  the start. Why don't you try something like this:

                                  1. Take a smaller group of people that naturally would be working together
                                  on something and call them a team.
                                  2. Gather them together and look at all of the work that they've already
                                  got on their plate.
                                  3. Decide what the most important things are.
                                  4. Decide on reasonable time estimates for just the most important things
                                  with the team.
                                  5. Ask the team how much they honestly think they can do in some period of
                                  time (30 days would be best).
                                  6. Tell them to ignore everything else and work on just those things. If
                                  they are getting pressure to do other stuff they can tell you in step 7.
                                  7. Have a daily standup. Follow the rules for Daily Scrums; 10 minutes, 3
                                  questions each.
                                  8. Ensure that you clear any impediments identified during the daily
                                  standup meeting.
                                  9. Review the progress at the end of the time period. Show off the
                                  achievements, order pizza in for lunch.
                                  10. Rinse and repeat.

                                  Voila! Scrum!

                                  No tools, no metrics, no hassles. Focus on what you can do, and then focus
                                  on getting it done. When it's done, learn from it. Adjust the process and
                                  continually improve. That's the heart of Scrum.

                                  Dave Barrett,
                                  Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company



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                                  Der neue Internet Explorer 7 in deutscher Ausführung ist da !

                                • Michael James
                                  ... Are you seriously asserting the hodgepodge you described was anything like Scrum? --mj Michael James, CST http://www.danube.com/ http://scrumworkspro.com/
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jan 12, 2007
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                                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "rsagb007" <kontakt@...> wrote:

                                    > And, what i made was particually SCRUM, sometimes more, sometimes
                                    > less.

                                    Are you seriously asserting the hodgepodge you described was
                                    anything like Scrum?

                                    --mj
                                    Michael James, CST
                                    http://www.danube.com/
                                    http://scrumworkspro.com/
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