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Re: [scrumdevelopment] What is wrong with this process

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  • Ron Jeffries
    ... Tell us more about this pressure , please. Who is providing it? How do they provide it? In a smoothly operating Agile project, pressure is not a very
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 1, 2006
      Hello, Max. On Friday, December 1, 2006, at 7:46:10 AM, you wrote:

      > "stakeholders/customers" - it isn't the only important thing. In my post I was rather
      > talking about what developers feel by task implementation. We (developers) seem to work
      > under the constant pressure, and I want to find some better way for working with greater
      > effictiveness in order to reduse the pressure.

      Tell us more about this "pressure", please. Who is providing it? How
      do they provide it?

      In a smoothly operating Agile project, pressure is not a very useful
      tool in my opinion. See, for example:

      Doing the Impossible
      Ron Jeffries
      10/20/2006

      Dogbert teaches us all a management lesson. He's even offering a
      diploma. Is that better than a certificate?

      http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/jatImpossible.htm

      Making the Date
      Ron Jeffries
      11/10/2005

      It seems like every development project begins with the date, and
      we're held responsible for "making the date". Making the date is a
      management responsibility, not a development responsibility.
      Here's why.

      Updated with cool cartoon from Simon Baker.

      http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/jatMakingTheDate.htm

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      The opinions expressed here /are/ necessarily those of XProgramming.com.
      But I might change my mind.
    • Steven Gordon
      ... My experience is that organizational cultures always resist change. Unless there is enough dissatisfaction or pain at the business or management levels,
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 1, 2006
        On 12/1/06, Max Pendyschtschuk <gotischerose@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hello, Steve
        >
        > "stakeholders/customers" - it isn't the only important thing. In my post I
        > was rather talking about what developers feel by task implementation. We
        > (developers) seem to work under the constant pressure, and I want to find
        > some better way for working with greater effictiveness in order to reduse
        > the pressure.
        >
        > Our results seem to be good now, our customers are satisfied. But in some
        > time we will be tired off our job (burn out)
        >

        My experience is that organizational cultures always resist change.
        Unless there is enough dissatisfaction or pain at the business or
        management levels, there will not be sufficient motivation to overcome
        resistance to change.

        Where is the burn out coming from? When a feature is estimated to
        take 100 hours and ends up taking 200 hours, are developers forced to
        work twice as many hours a week to hide the issue from management and
        customers? If so, what happens when developers refuse to hide the
        issue any more?

        One way to not hide it anymore is to stop working overtime and let
        schedules slip. Another way would be to double estimates before
        committing to a schedule. If either approach leads to pain for
        management or customers, then there will be enough pain to get the
        organization to consider Scrum/XP or any of the lighter weight, agile
        processes.

        Regards,

        Steve
      • Max Pendyschtschuk
        Hello Steve, All planning is made by managers, with out developers. They don t ask (usual) – is it possible or not. What a customer wants – he will get it.
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
          Hello Steve,
           
          All planning is made by managers, with out developers. They don't ask (usual) – is it possible or not. What a customer wants – he will get it. Because «it's a real life»or «it's open market and we have to concur», we have a wild capitalism here so they will drink out your blood as long as you let them to. The questio it that if you want to live for work and to die «almost» rich before 40 or you want to work for living. Somethimes planning is very bad. Half year ago I got task to implement somethimg (web-application should show some message if server fault). I had two days for it, because on the third day we had project deadline. Problem here – we used new framework (Oracle ADF) on the server, I had no experience with it, another developers worked with ADF about 2 month, during project developing. When I tried to investigate server side interaction I sad that I have no idea, how to do it. I posted my question on Oracle Technical Support Forum and got no answers. My weekend I spent with developing, code investigation, books/issues reading, because on Tuesday would come deadline. I implemented it, I didn't find the best way, but it works. This messages I could implement on the start of project, there was no dependecies here, but manager thought this task is to lite. Conclusion – hard working. Later we analise this project, and manager asked us why we had such situation, and how to avoid it in the future.Funny isn't it?

          My opinion about our management – they don't do their job. Everything they do – planning. And developers should implemented those plans of Napoleon. Maybe I have no right, just read my bi-i-ig description one more time and find here tasks of managers and tasks of developers.

          Example above + description – developers should analise everything, previous cycle, his tasks implementation, and even planning, which was created by manager.

          About overtime one more time. Core team for project, which I mentioned above worked sometimes on Saturday and finished their work-day at 20:00 (insteed of 18:00). Our general manager liked it, he sad it is plus of this team, their «responsibility», the «teeth of the team». Now part of this team develop another project, which seems to have Napoleon plans too. This project goes not so good, team doesn't want to work over-time. Maybe they are tired from it now. And you know what the general manager said about project progress? «It is a pity, but team didn't show it's spirit, it's teeth».
           
          regards, Max

          Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> schrieb:
          My experience is that organizational cultures always resist change.
          Unless there is enough dissatisfaction or pain at the business or
          management levels, there will not be sufficient motivation to overcome
          resistance to change.

          Where is the burn out coming from? When a feature is estimated to
          take 100 hours and ends up taking 200 hours, are developers forced to
          work twice as many hours a week to hide the issue from management and
          customers? If so, what happens when developers refuse to hide the
          issue any more?

          One way to not hide it anymore is to stop working overtime and let
          schedules slip. Another way would be to double estimates before
          committing to a schedule. If either approach leads to pain for
          management or customers, then there will be enough pain to get the
          organization to consider Scrum/XP or any of the lighter weight, agile
          processes.

          Regards,

          Steve




          liebe Gruesse


          Jetzt Mails schnell in einem Vorschaufenster überfliegen. Dies und viel mehr bietet das neue Yahoo! Mail .

        • Steven Gordon
          ... This is the root of the problem. Under the current process, the developers pay for management mistakes instead of management or customers, so it is
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 5, 2006
            On 12/5/06, Max Pendyschtschuk <gotischerose@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Steve,
            >
            >
            > All planning is made by managers, with out developers. They don't ask
            > (usual) – is it possible or not. What a customer wants – he will get it.
            > Because «it's a real life»or «it's open market and we have to concur», we
            > have a wild capitalism here so they will drink out your blood as long as you
            > let them to. The questio it that if you want to live for work and to die
            > «almost» rich before 40 or you want to work for living. Somethimes planning
            > is very bad. Half year ago I got task to implement somethimg
            > (web-application should show some message if server fault). I had two days
            > for it, because on the third day we had project deadline. Problem here – we
            > used new framework (Oracle ADF) on the server, I had no experience with it,
            > another developers worked with ADF about 2 month, during project developing.
            > When I tried to investigate server side interaction I sad that I have no
            > idea, how to do it. I posted my question on Oracle Technical Support Forum
            > and got no answers. My weekend I spent with developing, code investigation,
            > books/issues reading, because on Tuesday would come deadline. I implemented
            > it, I didn't find the best way, but it works. This messages I could
            > implement on the start of project, there was no dependecies here, but
            > manager thought this task is to lite. Conclusion – hard working. Later we
            > analise this project, and manager asked us why we had such situation, and
            > how to avoid it in the future.Funny isn't it?
            >
            >
            > My opinion about our management – they don't do their job. Everything they
            > do – planning. And developers should implemented those plans of Napoleon.
            > Maybe I have no right, just read my bi-i-ig description one more time and
            > find here tasks of managers and tasks of developers.
            >
            >
            > Example above + description – developers should analise everything, previous
            > cycle, his tasks implementation, and even planning, which was created by
            > manager.
            >
            >
            > About overtime one more time. Core team for project, which I mentioned above
            > worked sometimes on Saturday and finished their work-day at 20:00 (insteed
            > of 18:00). Our general manager liked it, he sad it is plus of this team,
            > their «responsibility», the «teeth of the team». Now part of this team
            > develop another project, which seems to have Napoleon plans too. This
            > project goes not so good, team doesn't want to work over-time. Maybe they
            > are tired from it now. And you know what the general manager said about
            > project progress? «It is a pity, but team didn't show it's spirit, it's
            > teeth».

            This is the root of the problem.

            Under the current process, the developers pay for management mistakes
            instead of management or customers, so it is unlikely that any other
            process could yield better results from the narrow point of view of
            management.

            Unless there is a shortage of developers there willing to work this
            way, there is no hope for change. My conclusion is that this is a
            labor power issue rather than a process issue. Unfortunately, a
            rational discussion of the process issues will have no practical
            affect on your situation at all.

            Steve

            >
            > regards, Max
            >
          • Brian Aherne
            Hi Guys, I did a Scrum course this time last year and have tried it out for a year. It s nearly driven me and the boys here in the office half mad. Is this
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 5, 2006
              Hi Guys,

              I did a Scrum course this time last year and have tried it out for a year.

              It's nearly driven me and the boys here in the office half mad.

              Is this really the way forward ????

              Surely we need more structered development ?????

              Why do we need managers and workers, sure we all on the same team aren't we
              ??

              Is there a better way ???

              Brian Aherne
              Product Development Manager
              CombinedMedia
              15 Irishtown Road
              Dublin 4
              Ireland
              Phone : 00 353 1 6188932
              Mobile 086 8041816

              -----Original Message-----
              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Steven Gordon
              Sent: 05 December 2006 12:37
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] What is wrong with this process


              On 12/5/06, Max Pendyschtschuk <gotischerose@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Steve,
              >
              >
              > All planning is made by managers, with out developers. They don't ask
              > (usual) – is it possible or not. What a customer wants – he will get it.
              > Because «it's a real life»or «it's open market and we have to concur», we
              > have a wild capitalism here so they will drink out your blood as long as
              you
              > let them to. The questio it that if you want to live for work and to die
              > «almost» rich before 40 or you want to work for living. Somethimes
              planning
              > is very bad. Half year ago I got task to implement somethimg
              > (web-application should show some message if server fault). I had two days
              > for it, because on the third day we had project deadline. Problem here –
              we
              > used new framework (Oracle ADF) on the server, I had no experience with
              it,
              > another developers worked with ADF about 2 month, during project
              developing.
              > When I tried to investigate server side interaction I sad that I have no
              > idea, how to do it. I posted my question on Oracle Technical Support Forum
              > and got no answers. My weekend I spent with developing, code
              investigation,
              > books/issues reading, because on Tuesday would come deadline. I
              implemented
              > it, I didn't find the best way, but it works. This messages I could
              > implement on the start of project, there was no dependecies here, but
              > manager thought this task is to lite. Conclusion – hard working. Later we
              > analise this project, and manager asked us why we had such situation, and
              > how to avoid it in the future.Funny isn't it?
              >
              >
              > My opinion about our management – they don't do their job. Everything they
              > do – planning. And developers should implemented those plans of Napoleon.
              > Maybe I have no right, just read my bi-i-ig description one more time and
              > find here tasks of managers and tasks of developers.
              >
              >
              > Example above + description – developers should analise everything,
              previous
              > cycle, his tasks implementation, and even planning, which was created by
              > manager.
              >
              >
              > About overtime one more time. Core team for project, which I mentioned
              above
              > worked sometimes on Saturday and finished their work-day at 20:00 (insteed
              > of 18:00). Our general manager liked it, he sad it is plus of this team,
              > their «responsibility», the «teeth of the team». Now part of this team
              > develop another project, which seems to have Napoleon plans too. This
              > project goes not so good, team doesn't want to work over-time. Maybe they
              > are tired from it now. And you know what the general manager said about
              > project progress? «It is a pity, but team didn't show it's spirit, it's
              > teeth».

              This is the root of the problem.

              Under the current process, the developers pay for management mistakes
              instead of management or customers, so it is unlikely that any other
              process could yield better results from the narrow point of view of
              management.

              Unless there is a shortage of developers there willing to work this
              way, there is no hope for change. My conclusion is that this is a
              labor power issue rather than a process issue. Unfortunately, a
              rational discussion of the process issues will have no practical
              affect on your situation at all.

              Steve

              >
              > regards, Max
              >


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              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
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            • Ken Schwaber
              Brian ... everyone is on the same team and Scrum helps focus it. Can you tell me more about why you and the boys here are half-mad? Ken ... From:
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 5, 2006
                Brian ... everyone is on the same team and Scrum helps focus it. Can you
                tell me more about why you and the boys here are half-mad?
                Ken

                -----Original Message-----
                From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Aherne
                Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 9:55 AM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] What is wrong with this process

                Hi Guys,

                I did a Scrum course this time last year and have tried it out for a year.

                It's nearly driven me and the boys here in the office half mad.

                Is this really the way forward ????

                Surely we need more structered development ?????

                Why do we need managers and workers, sure we all on the same team aren't we
                ??

                Is there a better way ???

                Brian Aherne
                Product Development Manager
                CombinedMedia
                15 Irishtown Road
                Dublin 4
                Ireland
                Phone : 00 353 1 6188932
                Mobile 086 8041816

                -----Original Message-----
                From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Steven Gordon
                Sent: 05 December 2006 12:37
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] What is wrong with this process


                On 12/5/06, Max Pendyschtschuk <gotischerose@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Steve,
                >
                >
                > All planning is made by managers, with out developers. They don't ask
                > (usual) - is it possible or not. What a customer wants - he will get it.
                > Because <it's a real life>or <it's open market and we have to concur>, we
                > have a wild capitalism here so they will drink out your blood as long as
                you
                > let them to. The questio it that if you want to live for work and to die
                > <almost> rich before 40 or you want to work for living. Somethimes
                planning
                > is very bad. Half year ago I got task to implement somethimg
                > (web-application should show some message if server fault). I had two days
                > for it, because on the third day we had project deadline. Problem here -
                we
                > used new framework (Oracle ADF) on the server, I had no experience with
                it,
                > another developers worked with ADF about 2 month, during project
                developing.
                > When I tried to investigate server side interaction I sad that I have no
                > idea, how to do it. I posted my question on Oracle Technical Support Forum
                > and got no answers. My weekend I spent with developing, code
                investigation,
                > books/issues reading, because on Tuesday would come deadline. I
                implemented
                > it, I didn't find the best way, but it works. This messages I could
                > implement on the start of project, there was no dependecies here, but
                > manager thought this task is to lite. Conclusion - hard working. Later we
                > analise this project, and manager asked us why we had such situation, and
                > how to avoid it in the future.Funny isn't it?
                >
                >
                > My opinion about our management - they don't do their job. Everything they
                > do - planning. And developers should implemented those plans of Napoleon.
                > Maybe I have no right, just read my bi-i-ig description one more time and
                > find here tasks of managers and tasks of developers.
                >
                >
                > Example above + description - developers should analise everything,
                previous
                > cycle, his tasks implementation, and even planning, which was created by
                > manager.
                >
                >
                > About overtime one more time. Core team for project, which I mentioned
                above
                > worked sometimes on Saturday and finished their work-day at 20:00 (insteed
                > of 18:00). Our general manager liked it, he sad it is plus of this team,
                > their <responsibility>, the <teeth of the team>. Now part of this team
                > develop another project, which seems to have Napoleon plans too. This
                > project goes not so good, team doesn't want to work over-time. Maybe they
                > are tired from it now. And you know what the general manager said about
                > project progress? <It is a pity, but team didn't show it's spirit, it's
                > teeth>.

                This is the root of the problem.

                Under the current process, the developers pay for management mistakes
                instead of management or customers, so it is unlikely that any other
                process could yield better results from the narrow point of view of
                management.

                Unless there is a shortage of developers there willing to work this
                way, there is no hope for change. My conclusion is that this is a
                labor power issue rather than a process issue. Unfortunately, a
                rational discussion of the process issues will have no practical
                affect on your situation at all.

                Steve

                >
                > regards, Max
                >


                To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                Yahoo! Groups Links







                To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Max Pendyschtschuk
                I m afraid it is really so. No chance to change something. It s a pity, but I got no advices about what is really bad in out system and how to improve it .
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 7, 2006
                  I'm afraid it is really so. No chance to change something.
                   
                  It's a pity, but I got no advices about "what is really bad in out system and  how to improve it". So I'm going to give another questions. The first one seems to be very simple, but I don't think so now:
                   
                  what are the manager duties and what are the developer duties?

                  Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> schrieb:
                  On 12/5/06, Max Pendyschtschuk wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Steve,
                  ...
                  > My opinion about our management – they don't do their job. This is the root of the problem.

                  Under the current process, the developers pay for management mistakes
                  instead of management or customers, so it is unlikely that any other
                  process could yield better results from the narrow point of view of
                  management.

                  Unless there is a shortage of developers there willing to work this
                  way, there is no hope for change. My conclusion is that this is a
                  labor power issue rather than a process issue. Unfortunately, a
                  rational discussion of the process issues will have no practical
                  affect on your situation at all.

                  Steve

                  regards,
                   
                  liebe Gruesse


                  Yahoo! 360° – Bloggen und Leute treffen. Erstellen Sie jetzt Ihre eigene Seite – kostenlos!.

                • Max Pendyschtschuk
                  Thanks for wish to help. If you can t hekp yorself, nobody will do it - it s the trutsh of nowdays. This topic is closed. ... Was ist Glück? Schlafen Fische
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 9, 2006
                    Thanks for wish to help. "If you can't hekp yorself, nobody will do it" - it's the trutsh of nowdays.
                     
                    This topic is closed.


                    Was ist Glück? Schlafen Fische überhaupt? Die Antworten gibt’s auf Yahoo! Clever.
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