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Re: [scrumdevelopment] What is wrong with this process

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  • Max Pendyschtschuk
    Vickydhiman schrieb: Hello Max: Is it possible to describe your process at a high level of detail rather than focussing on nitty
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 1, 2006
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      Vickydhiman <vickydhiman@...> schrieb:
      Hello Max:

      Is it possible to describe your process at a high level of detail rather than focussing on nitty gritty? What are guiding principles and values which drive your process?

      Thanks
      It is good request, but... After I sent my first post "I need your advice" I got feedbacks like:
       
      "...Sounds like traditional "I give you tasks, you do them" kind
      of project management, not self-organized and self-governed team..." (Petri Heiramo)
       
      "...The way I understood the main difference between his model and
      e.g. Scrum was the focus on numerically measurable goals.... I don't see that happening in
      what you describe..." (Petri Heiramo)
       
      "It sounds pretty agile, close to Scrum,
      but misses some fundamental practices (like working in a team, planning with
      the team, stand-up meetings, product owner role)" (Hubert Smits)
       
      So I want to check, that's why I described it so...
      "I need your advice" - it can be general description, but I think it is better to use cvurrent one.
       
      Thank you for interesting, Max


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    • mpkirby
      Max, Nice post, I understand your pain. Some questions/comments. - It seems that your focus is on controlling the future. How can we get better estimates,
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 1, 2006
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        Max,

        Nice post, I understand your pain. Some questions/comments.

        - It seems that your focus is on controlling the future. How can we
        get better estimates, reviewing the estimates of team members, etc.
        Agile techniques aren't about predicting or controlling the future, but
        about being able to react to it.

        - Similarly we've found one of the most useful aspects of scrum is
        the demo. It's an opportunity for us to show off a bit, and to get
        feedback (yes, this is what I wanted, no it isn't). That feedback
        cycle, both in terms of a customer during planning, as well as a
        customer during the demo is really important. It seems that the project
        manager is serving in that role for your org, and perhaps that is okay,
        but it is suspicious.

        - Do you reward developers for individual performance, or group
        performance? In other words, if two developers are working on a
        deliverable, and each have tasks of their own, and one of them does an
        outstanding job on "his" tasks. And the other is much weaker and isn't
        as successful, do you consider both developers as "failing to deliver",
        or just the one that was having difficulty?

        We found as we went to scrum changing from the idea of individual
        accountability to team accountability to be one of the most difficult
        and important aspects of what we are doing. I even had to "ding" high
        performers in my organization because the team wasn't able to deliver
        (they had some behavioral issues), in spite of some outstanding personal
        performance of an individual.

        Good luck in your journey.

        Mike
      • Max Pendyschtschuk
        Hello, Steve stakeholders/customers - it isn t the only important thing. In my post I was rather talking about what developers feel by task implementation.
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 1, 2006
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          Hello, Steve
           
          "stakeholders/customers" - it isn't the only important thing. In my post I was rather talking about what developers feel by task implementation. We (developers) seem to work under the constant pressure, and I want to find some better way for working with greater effictiveness in order to reduse the pressure.
           
          Our results seem to be good now, our customers are satisfied. But in some time we will be tired off our job (burn out)
           
          regards

          Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> schrieb:
          Max,

          The description is missing the most critical piece of information
          necessary to determined if there is even anything wrong with this
          process:
          - Is everyone who counts (i.e., the stakeholders/customers) satisfied
          with the results of this process?

          If there is concrete dissatisfaction, then we need to examine what
          outcomes people are dissatisfied with and do root cause analysis to
          see where the process is causing problems that the business people
          care about.

          If, on the other hand, the business people are currently satisfied
          with the outcomes, then there is not enough motivation to facilitate
          process change anyway.

          Steve


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        • Ron Jeffries
          ... Tell us more about this pressure , please. Who is providing it? How do they provide it? In a smoothly operating Agile project, pressure is not a very
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 1, 2006
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            Hello, Max. On Friday, December 1, 2006, at 7:46:10 AM, you wrote:

            > "stakeholders/customers" - it isn't the only important thing. In my post I was rather
            > talking about what developers feel by task implementation. We (developers) seem to work
            > under the constant pressure, and I want to find some better way for working with greater
            > effictiveness in order to reduse the pressure.

            Tell us more about this "pressure", please. Who is providing it? How
            do they provide it?

            In a smoothly operating Agile project, pressure is not a very useful
            tool in my opinion. See, for example:

            Doing the Impossible
            Ron Jeffries
            10/20/2006

            Dogbert teaches us all a management lesson. He's even offering a
            diploma. Is that better than a certificate?

            http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/jatImpossible.htm

            Making the Date
            Ron Jeffries
            11/10/2005

            It seems like every development project begins with the date, and
            we're held responsible for "making the date". Making the date is a
            management responsibility, not a development responsibility.
            Here's why.

            Updated with cool cartoon from Simon Baker.

            http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/jatMakingTheDate.htm

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            The opinions expressed here /are/ necessarily those of XProgramming.com.
            But I might change my mind.
          • Steven Gordon
            ... My experience is that organizational cultures always resist change. Unless there is enough dissatisfaction or pain at the business or management levels,
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 1, 2006
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              On 12/1/06, Max Pendyschtschuk <gotischerose@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello, Steve
              >
              > "stakeholders/customers" - it isn't the only important thing. In my post I
              > was rather talking about what developers feel by task implementation. We
              > (developers) seem to work under the constant pressure, and I want to find
              > some better way for working with greater effictiveness in order to reduse
              > the pressure.
              >
              > Our results seem to be good now, our customers are satisfied. But in some
              > time we will be tired off our job (burn out)
              >

              My experience is that organizational cultures always resist change.
              Unless there is enough dissatisfaction or pain at the business or
              management levels, there will not be sufficient motivation to overcome
              resistance to change.

              Where is the burn out coming from? When a feature is estimated to
              take 100 hours and ends up taking 200 hours, are developers forced to
              work twice as many hours a week to hide the issue from management and
              customers? If so, what happens when developers refuse to hide the
              issue any more?

              One way to not hide it anymore is to stop working overtime and let
              schedules slip. Another way would be to double estimates before
              committing to a schedule. If either approach leads to pain for
              management or customers, then there will be enough pain to get the
              organization to consider Scrum/XP or any of the lighter weight, agile
              processes.

              Regards,

              Steve
            • Max Pendyschtschuk
              Hello Steve, All planning is made by managers, with out developers. They don t ask (usual) – is it possible or not. What a customer wants – he will get it.
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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                Hello Steve,
                 
                All planning is made by managers, with out developers. They don't ask (usual) – is it possible or not. What a customer wants – he will get it. Because «it's a real life»or «it's open market and we have to concur», we have a wild capitalism here so they will drink out your blood as long as you let them to. The questio it that if you want to live for work and to die «almost» rich before 40 or you want to work for living. Somethimes planning is very bad. Half year ago I got task to implement somethimg (web-application should show some message if server fault). I had two days for it, because on the third day we had project deadline. Problem here – we used new framework (Oracle ADF) on the server, I had no experience with it, another developers worked with ADF about 2 month, during project developing. When I tried to investigate server side interaction I sad that I have no idea, how to do it. I posted my question on Oracle Technical Support Forum and got no answers. My weekend I spent with developing, code investigation, books/issues reading, because on Tuesday would come deadline. I implemented it, I didn't find the best way, but it works. This messages I could implement on the start of project, there was no dependecies here, but manager thought this task is to lite. Conclusion – hard working. Later we analise this project, and manager asked us why we had such situation, and how to avoid it in the future.Funny isn't it?

                My opinion about our management – they don't do their job. Everything they do – planning. And developers should implemented those plans of Napoleon. Maybe I have no right, just read my bi-i-ig description one more time and find here tasks of managers and tasks of developers.

                Example above + description – developers should analise everything, previous cycle, his tasks implementation, and even planning, which was created by manager.

                About overtime one more time. Core team for project, which I mentioned above worked sometimes on Saturday and finished their work-day at 20:00 (insteed of 18:00). Our general manager liked it, he sad it is plus of this team, their «responsibility», the «teeth of the team». Now part of this team develop another project, which seems to have Napoleon plans too. This project goes not so good, team doesn't want to work over-time. Maybe they are tired from it now. And you know what the general manager said about project progress? «It is a pity, but team didn't show it's spirit, it's teeth».
                 
                regards, Max

                Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> schrieb:
                My experience is that organizational cultures always resist change.
                Unless there is enough dissatisfaction or pain at the business or
                management levels, there will not be sufficient motivation to overcome
                resistance to change.

                Where is the burn out coming from? When a feature is estimated to
                take 100 hours and ends up taking 200 hours, are developers forced to
                work twice as many hours a week to hide the issue from management and
                customers? If so, what happens when developers refuse to hide the
                issue any more?

                One way to not hide it anymore is to stop working overtime and let
                schedules slip. Another way would be to double estimates before
                committing to a schedule. If either approach leads to pain for
                management or customers, then there will be enough pain to get the
                organization to consider Scrum/XP or any of the lighter weight, agile
                processes.

                Regards,

                Steve




                liebe Gruesse


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              • Steven Gordon
                ... This is the root of the problem. Under the current process, the developers pay for management mistakes instead of management or customers, so it is
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 5, 2006
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                  On 12/5/06, Max Pendyschtschuk <gotischerose@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Steve,
                  >
                  >
                  > All planning is made by managers, with out developers. They don't ask
                  > (usual) – is it possible or not. What a customer wants – he will get it.
                  > Because «it's a real life»or «it's open market and we have to concur», we
                  > have a wild capitalism here so they will drink out your blood as long as you
                  > let them to. The questio it that if you want to live for work and to die
                  > «almost» rich before 40 or you want to work for living. Somethimes planning
                  > is very bad. Half year ago I got task to implement somethimg
                  > (web-application should show some message if server fault). I had two days
                  > for it, because on the third day we had project deadline. Problem here – we
                  > used new framework (Oracle ADF) on the server, I had no experience with it,
                  > another developers worked with ADF about 2 month, during project developing.
                  > When I tried to investigate server side interaction I sad that I have no
                  > idea, how to do it. I posted my question on Oracle Technical Support Forum
                  > and got no answers. My weekend I spent with developing, code investigation,
                  > books/issues reading, because on Tuesday would come deadline. I implemented
                  > it, I didn't find the best way, but it works. This messages I could
                  > implement on the start of project, there was no dependecies here, but
                  > manager thought this task is to lite. Conclusion – hard working. Later we
                  > analise this project, and manager asked us why we had such situation, and
                  > how to avoid it in the future.Funny isn't it?
                  >
                  >
                  > My opinion about our management – they don't do their job. Everything they
                  > do – planning. And developers should implemented those plans of Napoleon.
                  > Maybe I have no right, just read my bi-i-ig description one more time and
                  > find here tasks of managers and tasks of developers.
                  >
                  >
                  > Example above + description – developers should analise everything, previous
                  > cycle, his tasks implementation, and even planning, which was created by
                  > manager.
                  >
                  >
                  > About overtime one more time. Core team for project, which I mentioned above
                  > worked sometimes on Saturday and finished their work-day at 20:00 (insteed
                  > of 18:00). Our general manager liked it, he sad it is plus of this team,
                  > their «responsibility», the «teeth of the team». Now part of this team
                  > develop another project, which seems to have Napoleon plans too. This
                  > project goes not so good, team doesn't want to work over-time. Maybe they
                  > are tired from it now. And you know what the general manager said about
                  > project progress? «It is a pity, but team didn't show it's spirit, it's
                  > teeth».

                  This is the root of the problem.

                  Under the current process, the developers pay for management mistakes
                  instead of management or customers, so it is unlikely that any other
                  process could yield better results from the narrow point of view of
                  management.

                  Unless there is a shortage of developers there willing to work this
                  way, there is no hope for change. My conclusion is that this is a
                  labor power issue rather than a process issue. Unfortunately, a
                  rational discussion of the process issues will have no practical
                  affect on your situation at all.

                  Steve

                  >
                  > regards, Max
                  >
                • Brian Aherne
                  Hi Guys, I did a Scrum course this time last year and have tried it out for a year. It s nearly driven me and the boys here in the office half mad. Is this
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 5, 2006
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                    Hi Guys,

                    I did a Scrum course this time last year and have tried it out for a year.

                    It's nearly driven me and the boys here in the office half mad.

                    Is this really the way forward ????

                    Surely we need more structered development ?????

                    Why do we need managers and workers, sure we all on the same team aren't we
                    ??

                    Is there a better way ???

                    Brian Aherne
                    Product Development Manager
                    CombinedMedia
                    15 Irishtown Road
                    Dublin 4
                    Ireland
                    Phone : 00 353 1 6188932
                    Mobile 086 8041816

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Steven Gordon
                    Sent: 05 December 2006 12:37
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] What is wrong with this process


                    On 12/5/06, Max Pendyschtschuk <gotischerose@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Steve,
                    >
                    >
                    > All planning is made by managers, with out developers. They don't ask
                    > (usual) – is it possible or not. What a customer wants – he will get it.
                    > Because «it's a real life»or «it's open market and we have to concur», we
                    > have a wild capitalism here so they will drink out your blood as long as
                    you
                    > let them to. The questio it that if you want to live for work and to die
                    > «almost» rich before 40 or you want to work for living. Somethimes
                    planning
                    > is very bad. Half year ago I got task to implement somethimg
                    > (web-application should show some message if server fault). I had two days
                    > for it, because on the third day we had project deadline. Problem here –
                    we
                    > used new framework (Oracle ADF) on the server, I had no experience with
                    it,
                    > another developers worked with ADF about 2 month, during project
                    developing.
                    > When I tried to investigate server side interaction I sad that I have no
                    > idea, how to do it. I posted my question on Oracle Technical Support Forum
                    > and got no answers. My weekend I spent with developing, code
                    investigation,
                    > books/issues reading, because on Tuesday would come deadline. I
                    implemented
                    > it, I didn't find the best way, but it works. This messages I could
                    > implement on the start of project, there was no dependecies here, but
                    > manager thought this task is to lite. Conclusion – hard working. Later we
                    > analise this project, and manager asked us why we had such situation, and
                    > how to avoid it in the future.Funny isn't it?
                    >
                    >
                    > My opinion about our management – they don't do their job. Everything they
                    > do – planning. And developers should implemented those plans of Napoleon.
                    > Maybe I have no right, just read my bi-i-ig description one more time and
                    > find here tasks of managers and tasks of developers.
                    >
                    >
                    > Example above + description – developers should analise everything,
                    previous
                    > cycle, his tasks implementation, and even planning, which was created by
                    > manager.
                    >
                    >
                    > About overtime one more time. Core team for project, which I mentioned
                    above
                    > worked sometimes on Saturday and finished their work-day at 20:00 (insteed
                    > of 18:00). Our general manager liked it, he sad it is plus of this team,
                    > their «responsibility», the «teeth of the team». Now part of this team
                    > develop another project, which seems to have Napoleon plans too. This
                    > project goes not so good, team doesn't want to work over-time. Maybe they
                    > are tired from it now. And you know what the general manager said about
                    > project progress? «It is a pity, but team didn't show it's spirit, it's
                    > teeth».

                    This is the root of the problem.

                    Under the current process, the developers pay for management mistakes
                    instead of management or customers, so it is unlikely that any other
                    process could yield better results from the narrow point of view of
                    management.

                    Unless there is a shortage of developers there willing to work this
                    way, there is no hope for change. My conclusion is that this is a
                    labor power issue rather than a process issue. Unfortunately, a
                    rational discussion of the process issues will have no practical
                    affect on your situation at all.

                    Steve

                    >
                    > regards, Max
                    >


                    To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
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                  • Ken Schwaber
                    Brian ... everyone is on the same team and Scrum helps focus it. Can you tell me more about why you and the boys here are half-mad? Ken ... From:
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 5, 2006
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                      Brian ... everyone is on the same team and Scrum helps focus it. Can you
                      tell me more about why you and the boys here are half-mad?
                      Ken

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Aherne
                      Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 9:55 AM
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] What is wrong with this process

                      Hi Guys,

                      I did a Scrum course this time last year and have tried it out for a year.

                      It's nearly driven me and the boys here in the office half mad.

                      Is this really the way forward ????

                      Surely we need more structered development ?????

                      Why do we need managers and workers, sure we all on the same team aren't we
                      ??

                      Is there a better way ???

                      Brian Aherne
                      Product Development Manager
                      CombinedMedia
                      15 Irishtown Road
                      Dublin 4
                      Ireland
                      Phone : 00 353 1 6188932
                      Mobile 086 8041816

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Steven Gordon
                      Sent: 05 December 2006 12:37
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] What is wrong with this process


                      On 12/5/06, Max Pendyschtschuk <gotischerose@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Steve,
                      >
                      >
                      > All planning is made by managers, with out developers. They don't ask
                      > (usual) - is it possible or not. What a customer wants - he will get it.
                      > Because <it's a real life>or <it's open market and we have to concur>, we
                      > have a wild capitalism here so they will drink out your blood as long as
                      you
                      > let them to. The questio it that if you want to live for work and to die
                      > <almost> rich before 40 or you want to work for living. Somethimes
                      planning
                      > is very bad. Half year ago I got task to implement somethimg
                      > (web-application should show some message if server fault). I had two days
                      > for it, because on the third day we had project deadline. Problem here -
                      we
                      > used new framework (Oracle ADF) on the server, I had no experience with
                      it,
                      > another developers worked with ADF about 2 month, during project
                      developing.
                      > When I tried to investigate server side interaction I sad that I have no
                      > idea, how to do it. I posted my question on Oracle Technical Support Forum
                      > and got no answers. My weekend I spent with developing, code
                      investigation,
                      > books/issues reading, because on Tuesday would come deadline. I
                      implemented
                      > it, I didn't find the best way, but it works. This messages I could
                      > implement on the start of project, there was no dependecies here, but
                      > manager thought this task is to lite. Conclusion - hard working. Later we
                      > analise this project, and manager asked us why we had such situation, and
                      > how to avoid it in the future.Funny isn't it?
                      >
                      >
                      > My opinion about our management - they don't do their job. Everything they
                      > do - planning. And developers should implemented those plans of Napoleon.
                      > Maybe I have no right, just read my bi-i-ig description one more time and
                      > find here tasks of managers and tasks of developers.
                      >
                      >
                      > Example above + description - developers should analise everything,
                      previous
                      > cycle, his tasks implementation, and even planning, which was created by
                      > manager.
                      >
                      >
                      > About overtime one more time. Core team for project, which I mentioned
                      above
                      > worked sometimes on Saturday and finished their work-day at 20:00 (insteed
                      > of 18:00). Our general manager liked it, he sad it is plus of this team,
                      > their <responsibility>, the <teeth of the team>. Now part of this team
                      > develop another project, which seems to have Napoleon plans too. This
                      > project goes not so good, team doesn't want to work over-time. Maybe they
                      > are tired from it now. And you know what the general manager said about
                      > project progress? <It is a pity, but team didn't show it's spirit, it's
                      > teeth>.

                      This is the root of the problem.

                      Under the current process, the developers pay for management mistakes
                      instead of management or customers, so it is unlikely that any other
                      process could yield better results from the narrow point of view of
                      management.

                      Unless there is a shortage of developers there willing to work this
                      way, there is no hope for change. My conclusion is that this is a
                      labor power issue rather than a process issue. Unfortunately, a
                      rational discussion of the process issues will have no practical
                      affect on your situation at all.

                      Steve

                      >
                      > regards, Max
                      >


                      To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                      Yahoo! Groups Links







                      To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Max Pendyschtschuk
                      I m afraid it is really so. No chance to change something. It s a pity, but I got no advices about what is really bad in out system and how to improve it .
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 7, 2006
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                        I'm afraid it is really so. No chance to change something.
                         
                        It's a pity, but I got no advices about "what is really bad in out system and  how to improve it". So I'm going to give another questions. The first one seems to be very simple, but I don't think so now:
                         
                        what are the manager duties and what are the developer duties?

                        Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> schrieb:
                        On 12/5/06, Max Pendyschtschuk wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Steve,
                        ...
                        > My opinion about our management – they don't do their job. This is the root of the problem.

                        Under the current process, the developers pay for management mistakes
                        instead of management or customers, so it is unlikely that any other
                        process could yield better results from the narrow point of view of
                        management.

                        Unless there is a shortage of developers there willing to work this
                        way, there is no hope for change. My conclusion is that this is a
                        labor power issue rather than a process issue. Unfortunately, a
                        rational discussion of the process issues will have no practical
                        affect on your situation at all.

                        Steve

                        regards,
                         
                        liebe Gruesse


                        Yahoo! 360° – Bloggen und Leute treffen. Erstellen Sie jetzt Ihre eigene Seite – kostenlos!.

                      • Max Pendyschtschuk
                        Thanks for wish to help. If you can t hekp yorself, nobody will do it - it s the trutsh of nowdays. This topic is closed. ... Was ist Glück? Schlafen Fische
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 9, 2006
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                          Thanks for wish to help. "If you can't hekp yorself, nobody will do it" - it's the trutsh of nowdays.
                           
                          This topic is closed.


                          Was ist Glück? Schlafen Fische überhaupt? Die Antworten gibt’s auf Yahoo! Clever.
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