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RE: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Getting the REAL Customer - was Re: More newbie questions...

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  • Mike Beedle
    ... Christian: But in Scrum we also show what is done every day. Remember, Daily Build and Daily Scrum are basic Scrum patterns. A while ago Jeff
    Message 1 of 33 , Aug 12, 2003
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      > From: "Christian Knott" <chrisknott@...>
      > With Scrum, we get to show what's been done every 30 days. That means
      > that the "alignment smell" gets to be put on view once a month
      > instead of, well, never in many other cases.

      Christian:

      But in Scrum we also show what is done every day. Remember,
      "Daily Build" and "Daily Scrum" are basic Scrum patterns.

      A while ago Jeff Sutherland pointed to an article written by
      Martin Fowler about continuous integration. All good and dandy.
      It is great to have things like Anthill produce automatic builds
      and run batches of unit tests. But it is also important for
      the Customer to interact with stable versions of the application
      and give feedback from hands-on experience on a daily basis.

      Also, there are things like Fit and Fitnesse that attempt to
      Automate "acceptance testing". Our style is to do this
      through "human interaction" -- there are some things that
      we feel are best leaving non-automated i.e. where we want humans
      involved.

      In our development we have perhaps hundreds if not thousands
      of builds every day, and thousands of check ins and updates,
      but we advertise at least one stable build daily for the customers
      to play with.


      > For the specific problem of fuzzily defined requirements for reports,
      > I'm with Ron, pretty much. My difference: do something. Anything.
      > Guestimate what the report should be, do it quickly, then mark it
      done.

      Well, "mark it done" might be pushing your luck.
      Some customers take it very offensively to "mark things done"
      if they are not done. But certainly, getting a report out
      for someone to see will start the feedback loops. (Don't forget
      to update your daily estimate to completion after some work
      and feedback are produced :-)


      > The donors/owners will soon start griping, and you can convert
      > their gripes into requirements that go on the product backlog.

      True.

      - Mike
    • Mike Beedle
      ... Christian: But in Scrum we also show what is done every day. Remember, Daily Build and Daily Scrum are basic Scrum patterns. A while ago Jeff
      Message 33 of 33 , Aug 12, 2003
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        > From: "Christian Knott" <chrisknott@...>
        > With Scrum, we get to show what's been done every 30 days. That means
        > that the "alignment smell" gets to be put on view once a month
        > instead of, well, never in many other cases.

        Christian:

        But in Scrum we also show what is done every day. Remember,
        "Daily Build" and "Daily Scrum" are basic Scrum patterns.

        A while ago Jeff Sutherland pointed to an article written by
        Martin Fowler about continuous integration. All good and dandy.
        It is great to have things like Anthill produce automatic builds
        and run batches of unit tests. But it is also important for
        the Customer to interact with stable versions of the application
        and give feedback from hands-on experience on a daily basis.

        Also, there are things like Fit and Fitnesse that attempt to
        Automate "acceptance testing". Our style is to do this
        through "human interaction" -- there are some things that
        we feel are best leaving non-automated i.e. where we want humans
        involved.

        In our development we have perhaps hundreds if not thousands
        of builds every day, and thousands of check ins and updates,
        but we advertise at least one stable build daily for the customers
        to play with.


        > For the specific problem of fuzzily defined requirements for reports,
        > I'm with Ron, pretty much. My difference: do something. Anything.
        > Guestimate what the report should be, do it quickly, then mark it
        done.

        Well, "mark it done" might be pushing your luck.
        Some customers take it very offensively to "mark things done"
        if they are not done. But certainly, getting a report out
        for someone to see will start the feedback loops. (Don't forget
        to update your daily estimate to completion after some work
        and feedback are produced :-)


        > The donors/owners will soon start griping, and you can convert
        > their gripes into requirements that go on the product backlog.

        True.

        - Mike
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