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RE: [XP] RE: [scrumdevelopment] Agile and CMM are contradictory

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  • Lowell Lindstrom
    ... Please elaborate. It is used as an adjective in every context I have seen it, including Agile software development. ... (www.controlchaos.com/excerpt.pdf)
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 8, 2001
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      > "agile" isn't an adjective, like "agile RUP."

      Please elaborate. It is used as an adjective in every context I have seen
      it, including Agile software development.

      > Agile has particular theoretical characteristics
      (www.controlchaos.com/excerpt.pdf) and mannerisms
      > that arise from this theoretical base, like frequent inspection,
      self-organization, and emergence.

      I don't see what the excerpt has to do with this thread. In practice, there
      are degrees of self-organization, etc. Perhaps we are discussing from
      different vantage points, one theoretical and one practical.
    • Ken Schwaber
      You are quite correct. I was trying to get across the point that this is a cross-species thing. Although the idea of mating a snake and a dog is quite
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 9, 2001
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        You are quite correct. I was trying to get across the point that this is a
        cross-species thing. Although the idea of mating a snake and a dog is quite
        interesting, it is impossible. We used to refer to thing like "agile rup" as
        a pig on roller skates; it's still a pig, just a little faster.

        The excerpt talks about the theoretical basis. Self-organization after a
        team has been give a definitive list of tasks to perform is quite different
        from a team that has to think up the list of tasks from scratch.
        Ken

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Lowell Lindstrom [mailto:lindstrom@...]
        Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 9:44 PM
        To: 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com';
        'extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com'
        Subject: RE: [XP] RE: [scrumdevelopment] Agile and CMM are contradictory


        > "agile" isn't an adjective, like "agile RUP."

        Please elaborate. It is used as an adjective in every context I have seen
        it, including Agile software development.

        > Agile has particular theoretical characteristics
        (www.controlchaos.com/excerpt.pdf) and mannerisms
        > that arise from this theoretical base, like frequent inspection,
        self-organization, and emergence.

        I don't see what the excerpt has to do with this thread. In practice, there
        are degrees of self-organization, etc. Perhaps we are discussing from
        different vantage points, one theoretical and one practical.


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      • Mike Beedle
        I propose that Lean Manufacturing has a host of good things to teach the software development industry. But note that the operative word in here
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 9, 2001
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          <Mary writes>
          I propose that Lean Manufacturing has a host of good things to teach
          the software development industry. But note that the operative word
          in here is `Lean'. Lean means :

          1. Eliminating Waste – which is to say doing only those things
          which add value. It is amazing how many things you do not have to
          do if you aggressively eliminate things which do not add value.

          2. Streamlining Flow – Which means using the shortest possible
          path and the most rapid time. In manufacturing, this is applied to
          materials. In software development, this is applied to information
          flow. XP has a very rapid flow: from customer to developer to
          working code. No waste in handoffs.
          <Mary writes>

          Mary:

          I agree. Back in 1995 I wrote a pattern language to construct
          optimized enterprises using business patterns:
          http://www.mikebeedle.com/pub/bpr-papers/bpr.pdf

          And then I turned around and applied those same patterns to
          software development. In fact, I wrote a few articles on
          how to apply these patterns in an article with the title
          "Reengineering the application development process".

          However, these optimizations, while important, and while beneficial
          to software development, don't get to the core of what software
          is, imo. They miss the questions:

          "how do you enable people to do research and
          creativity with in high degrees of cooperation
          and collaboration?"

          and,

          "how do you allow software development projects to
          violently change plans and generate schedules, scope,
          determine appropriate quality, and contain cost
          on-the-fly?"

          This is only that something like Scrum brings.

          These requirements are what makes software development different
          than manufacturing -- any manufacturing, because
          manufacturing, regardless of how optimized it is, it always
          builds the same products once you run a production cycle i.e. like
          building a particular model of a VCR.

          Even when you have customized manufacturing, like in the delivery
          of automobiles, expensive machinery or PCs, there are
          standard process overrides to deal with customization, so the
          requirements are never elevated to deal with the requirements
          of software development.


          <Mary writes>
          I think of CMM more like ISO 900X – relatively process-neutral and
          occasionally necessary. I observe that some companies benefit from
          such programs, but more companies waste time on them. I don't see a
          large correlation between high maturity and high business success.
          This is researched in the book by Robert Austin, `Measuring and
          Managing Performance in Organizations'.
          <Mary writes>

          This is true, all of it, but the CMM does require at level 3
          to define a "detailed, step-wise process". And this is also true
          in manufacturing -- regardless of how much you streamline or
          eliminate waste, and regardless of how much JIT and Supply
          Chain Management one uses, manufactured products in a "production
          batch" are _assembled_ using a pre-defined process.

          In some very trivial cases you can almost do the same in
          software, like in CRUD type screens, but once business rules
          start to play a strong role, or once there is diversity in
          the technologies used for different functionalities, etc.;
          one steps into the non-liner land of "research and creativity
          required".

          - Mike


          Mike Beedle http://www.mikebeedle.com

          e-Architects Inc. http://www.e-architects.com
          Hipaa Accelerator http://www.hipaaccelerator.com

          XBreed http://www.xbreed.net
          Agile Scrum http://www.agilescrum.com

          Agile Alliance http://www.agilealliance.org
          Living Metaphor http://www.livingmetaphor.org
        • Mike Beedle
          I propose that Lean Manufacturing has a host of good things to teach the software development industry. But note that the operative word in
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 9, 2001
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            <Mary proposed>
            I propose that Lean Manufacturing has a host of good things to teach
            the software development industry. But note that the operative word
            in here is `Lean'. Lean means :

            1. Eliminating Waste – which is to say doing only those things
            which add value. It is amazing how many things you do not have to
            do if you aggressively eliminate things which do not add value.

            2. Streamlining Flow – Which means using the shortest possible
            path and the most rapid time. In manufacturing, this is applied to
            materials. In software development, this is applied to information
            flow. XP has a very rapid flow: from customer to developer to
            working code. No waste in handoffs.
            <Mary writes>

            <I responded earlier>
            >And then I turned around and applied those same patterns to
            >software development. In fact, I wrote a few articles on
            >how to apply these patterns in an article with the title
            >"Reengineering the application development process".
            <I responded earlier>


            Btw, here is the "radp" paper just in case anyone want to take
            a look at it:
            http://www.mikebeedle.com/pub/radp.pdf

            As well as a few other related articles and a presentation
            here:

            [Beedle97] M. Beedle, Pattern Based Reengineering,
            Object Magazine, January (1997).
            http://www.mikebeedle.com/pbr.html
            * This paper includes an extended version of the
            Zachman Framework that some people found interesting
            since it included objects and patterns.


            [Beedle95] M. Beedle, Object Based Reengineering,
            Object Magazine 4(2), (1995).
            * The equivalent of IDEF only in objects -- not good for
            software development!!!


            Enterprise Architectural Patterns
            http://www.mikebeedle.com/pub/patterns.ppt
            See also at the old Bell Labs site:

            http://www.bell-labs.com/cgi-user/OrgPatterns/OrgPatterns?BPRPatternLanguage
            * This dates back to the time when I was coordinating
            a common pattern language to build business and
            software organizations. This effort has been
            continued at:
            http://i44pc48.info.uni-karlsruhe.de/cgi-bin/OrgPatterns

            - Mike
            http://www.mikebeedle.com
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