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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Getting the REAL Customer - was Re: More newbie questions...

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  • Bryan Zarnett
    ... I feel customer is a poorly chosen word because the customer can have such a wide definition. In a Online-banking System who is the customer? I personally
    Message 1 of 33 , Aug 3, 2003
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      On Sunday, August 3, 2003, at 11:00 AM, Bryan Zarnett wrote:

      >
      > On Sunday, August 3, 2003, at 10:30 AM, Deb wrote:
      >
      >> I wonder if this is not one of the biggest roadblocks to Scrum
      >> success - not talking to (not being allowed to talk to) the "real"
      >> customer. If we don't get access to the right Customer
      >> representatives, don't we risk building more shelfware?
      >>
      I feel customer is a poorly chosen word because the customer can have
      such a wide definition. In a Online-banking System who is the customer?
      I personally am the customer for the banking system created by
      TD/Canada Trust according to the banking representative. The business
      analyst is my customer in the development of the product. The customer
      of the BA is a series of mysterious product owners associated to the
      bank? Which one is the real customer? Who is the customer? In this
      circumstance though, the BA is the business advocate.

      Cheers,
      Bryan
    • Mike Beedle
      ... Christian: But in Scrum we also show what is done every day. Remember, Daily Build and Daily Scrum are basic Scrum patterns. A while ago Jeff
      Message 33 of 33 , Aug 12, 2003
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        > From: "Christian Knott" <chrisknott@...>
        > With Scrum, we get to show what's been done every 30 days. That means
        > that the "alignment smell" gets to be put on view once a month
        > instead of, well, never in many other cases.

        Christian:

        But in Scrum we also show what is done every day. Remember,
        "Daily Build" and "Daily Scrum" are basic Scrum patterns.

        A while ago Jeff Sutherland pointed to an article written by
        Martin Fowler about continuous integration. All good and dandy.
        It is great to have things like Anthill produce automatic builds
        and run batches of unit tests. But it is also important for
        the Customer to interact with stable versions of the application
        and give feedback from hands-on experience on a daily basis.

        Also, there are things like Fit and Fitnesse that attempt to
        Automate "acceptance testing". Our style is to do this
        through "human interaction" -- there are some things that
        we feel are best leaving non-automated i.e. where we want humans
        involved.

        In our development we have perhaps hundreds if not thousands
        of builds every day, and thousands of check ins and updates,
        but we advertise at least one stable build daily for the customers
        to play with.


        > For the specific problem of fuzzily defined requirements for reports,
        > I'm with Ron, pretty much. My difference: do something. Anything.
        > Guestimate what the report should be, do it quickly, then mark it
        done.

        Well, "mark it done" might be pushing your luck.
        Some customers take it very offensively to "mark things done"
        if they are not done. But certainly, getting a report out
        for someone to see will start the feedback loops. (Don't forget
        to update your daily estimate to completion after some work
        and feedback are produced :-)


        > The donors/owners will soon start griping, and you can convert
        > their gripes into requirements that go on the product backlog.

        True.

        - Mike
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